US politics: Everything in moderation, including moderation

[Centrist Simon Steele]

On 8/6/2021 at 12:50 PM, Tywin et al. said:

That doesn't mean people should continue to lean into the slogan. Just say reform the police instead. It's more accurate and plays better.

Democrats need to stop sucking at messaging. 

It's not a Democratic party message. Their message is "uh, yeah, I don't know, maybe? NO! but maybe?"

[DMC]

6 minutes ago, Centrist Simon Steele said:

It's not a Democratic party message. Their message is "uh, yeah, I don't know, maybe? NO! but maybe?"

Biden had consistently advocated for more funding for police, not less, both as a candidate and as president.  He's also supported more funding for criminal justice reform.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

17 minutes ago, DMC said:

Biden had consistently advocated for more funding for police, not less, both as a candidate and as president.  He's also supported more funding for criminal justice reform.

You're the Han Seoul-Oh of allies. 

[DMC]

12 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

You're the Han Seoul-Oh of allies. 

I don't really get it.  Because I think defund the police is a horrible message for the national Democratic party to adopt while still acknowledging that Cori Bush has every right to maintain/advocate the position she'd held that got her elected?  That's just understanding party politics. 

My predominate interest is in Democrats not pointlessly attacking each other - and defending each other from bullshit attacks from the right.  Whether it be moderates attacking the left or vice versa.  Because the only way to stop the fascists is to remain united.  Think I've been pretty damn consistent from that perspective.  

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

9 minutes ago, DMC said:

I don't really get it.  Because I think defund the police is a horrible message for the national Democratic party to adopt while still acknowledging that Cori Bush has every right to maintain/advocate the position she'd held that got her elected?  That's just understanding party politics. 

It was a bad joke based off of F9. A movie I'm sure you'll love. 

Look, Bush can make any statement she wants to, but she also has to keep in mind how it will affect others. I've said for over a decade we need more psychologists and social workers and fewer cowboys in our police ranks, but I would never say defund the police and think I'm making a good argument. 

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My predominate interest is in Democrats not pointlessly attacking each other - and defending each other from bullshit attacks from the right.  Whether it be moderates attacking the left or vice versa.  Because the only way to stop the fascists is to remain united.  Think I've been pretty damn consistent from that perspective.  

I think the only way to stop fascism is to call it out. Anytime a Republican calls a Democrat a communist or a socialist, they should just reply that it's still better than being a fascist. Then ask them if they'd like to meet Lt. Aldo Raine. 

[DMC]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

It was a bad joke based off of F9. A movie I'm sure you'll love. 

Oh.  I've never seen a single frame of any of the Fast & the Furious movies.  I guess maybe by accident before I changed the channel.

3 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Look, Bush can make any statement she wants to, but she also has to keep in mind how it will affect others. I've said for over a decade we need more psychologists and social workers and fewer cowboys in our police ranks, but I would never say defund the police and think I'm making a good argument. 

Except it is a good argument for her.  Or at least it's what she's been advocating her entire political career.  It's entirely unreasonable to ask her to change her position unless she was actually in a position of leadership - which she's not - whether it be officially within the caucus or even as a symbolic leader like AOC.

[Week]

4 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

- fewer cowboys in our police ranks

I hate police cowboys.

Though seriously, how about zero? That seems like the highest number of 'cowboys' that I would find acceptable in the police.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

38 minutes ago, DMC said:

Oh.  I've never seen a single frame of any of the Fast & the Furious movies.  I guess maybe by accident before I changed the channel.

They're not all terrible. The one with the bank vault in Rio was pretty fun. 

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Except it is a good argument for her.  Or at least it's what she's been advocating her entire political career.  It's entirely unreasonable to ask her to change her position unless she was actually in a position of leadership - which she's not - whether it be officially within the caucus or even as a symbolic leader like AOC.

Yes, it's a good argument for her, when done correctly. However, she made a clumsy as fuck statement and every toss up House Dem is going to get some blowback from it. And being in leadership means fuck all to the average voter. Attention matters more. That's why I'd bet more people can probably name AOC than the second highest ranking Democrat in the House. 

44 minutes ago, Week said:

I hate police cowboys.

Though seriously, how about zero? That seems like the highest number of 'cowboys' that I would find acceptable in the police.

You know the history of law enforcement. Many cowboys are their heroes. 

[DMC]

5 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

However, she made a clumsy as fuck statement

I don't think her statement was clumsy at all.  She defended why she has to have personal security and then reiterated her long-held position on defunding the police.  That's exactly what she should have done from a political perspective - again, for her interests and appealing to the interests of her primary constituency.

8 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

That's why I'd bet more people can probably name AOC than the second highest ranking Democrat in the House. 

....That's exactly my point.  AOC is a symbolic leader, so I'd argue she has more of a responsibility to avoid any clips like that on her advocating defunding the police.  Cori Bush, however, is not.  And stop acting like Bush's comments are going to have much of an effect on other members' races electorally.  They're not.  And even if they were, it's not like there's a shitload of other clips the GOP could use of her advocating for defunding the police.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

12 minutes ago, DMC said:

I don't think her statement was clumsy at all.  She defended why she has to have personal security and then reiterated her long-held position on defunding the police.  That's exactly what she should have done from a political perspective - again, for her interests and appealing to the interests of her primary constituency.

Saying you need to pay $70k for your own security, but that we also need to defund the police, is yes, a clumsy as fuck statement to make. You're being too smart and nuanced here. The average American will not receive that comment well. 

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....That's exactly my point.  AOC is a symbolic leader, so I'd argue she has more of a responsibility to avoid any clips like that on her advocating defunding the police.  Cori Bush, however, is not.  And stop acting like Bush's comments are going to have much of an effect on other members' races electorally.  They're not.  And even if they were, it's not like there's a shitload of other clips the GOP could use of her advocating for defunding the police.

Media attention creates symbolic leaders, and it's not an accident we're talking about Bush. She's going to get just as much attention as the Squad has before her, and that clip is absolutely going to be used in attack ads. Again, it really wasn't any benefit for her overall, but it absolutely is something Republicans can seize on. 

[DMC]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

Saying you need to pay $70k for your own security, but that we also need to defund the police, is yes, a clumsy as fuck statement to make.

No, it's not.  Not when it's in a response to a direct question asking her exactly that.  She needed to defend herself on the former, and if she shied away from the latter, she'd lose credibility with her constituents.  The "average American" doesn't matter here.  In fact, the "average American" is incredibly unlikely to even be aware of that interview.

4 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Media attention creates symbolic leaders, and it's not an accident we're talking about Bush.

Right, we're talking about Bush because she got attention this week.  If you think she's going to continue to get that much attention, or have as much name ID, as AOC moving forward you're kidding yourself.  She may be a member of the squad, but the only member of the squad that has name ID significantly higher than your run of the mill backbencher is AOC.

8 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

that clip is absolutely going to be used in attack ads.

Once again, she's already had plenty of clips for them to use in attack ads.  That interview did not change that in the slightest.  So what exactly are you complaining about?

[Kalbear]

Its always so remarkable to see how such rando minor dems get the scrutiny of being the voice for the whole party, but no one does that for someone like mtg or cawthorne or gaetz. 

The asymmetry and inherent racism is interesting. 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

10 hours ago, L'oiseau français said:

Yeah, stuff that shit, that's like saying every American is a proud member of Trump nation, which is patently untrue. And both Fords had been politicians for decades, this guy hasn't even run for dog catcher.

So they've. But then again, what are they (in-)famous for. I mean Doug is basically the less charismatic brother (and most vocal defender) of the late crack mayor of Toronto. Which was apparently not a red flag and disqualifier for your fellow Ontarions (?). Needless to say he was also a cheerleader for the 45th US president.

[DMC]

6 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

I mean Doug is basically the less charismatic brother (and most vocal defender) of the late crack mayor of Toronto.

Your focus on Rob Ford's drug addiction and alcoholism here is a bit unseemly.  A lot of politicians have had addiction problems.  Doesn't necessarily make the voters who elected them stupid.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, DMC said:

No, it's not.  Not when it's in a response to a direct question asking her exactly that.  She needed to defend herself on the former, and if she shied away from the latter, she'd lose credibility with her constituents.  The "average American" doesn't matter here.  In fact, the "average American" is incredibly unlikely to even be aware of that interview.

I think such credibility should be in question, given that it's over a losing cause that you and everyone with a sane bone in their body acknowledges. And the average American will be more aware of her comments than 99% of other statements made by House Democrats. 

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Right, we're talking about Bush because she got attention this week.  If you think she's going to continue to get that much attention, or have as much name ID, as AOC moving forward you're kidding yourself.  She may be a member of the squad, but the only member of the squad that has name ID significantly higher than your run of the mill backbencher is AOC.

Um, have you forgotten my MoC? It's quite possible Bush will be just as known as Omar. 

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Once again, she's already had plenty of clips for them to use in attack ads.  That interview did not change that in the slightest.  So what exactly are you complaining about?

Yes, Bush has repeated a bad talking point of hers several times. And she keeps leaning into it. That's the point of contention. Saying oh well, who cares, is not a good strategy, both for the individual and the party. There's no defending it. 

1 hour ago, Kaligator said:

Its always so remarkable to see how such rando minor dems get the scrutiny of being the voice for the whole party, but no one does that for someone like mtg or cawthorne or gaetz. 

The asymmetry and inherent racism is interesting. 

Clearly you don't watch CNN or MSNBC. 

[DMC]

18 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I think such credibility should be in question, given that it's over a losing cause that you and everyone with a sane bone in their body acknowledges. And the average American will be more aware of her comments than 99% of other statements made by House Democrats. 

To the first sentence, you're being extraordinarily ignorant of how she got elected.  Just because you think advocating for defund the police isn't "sane" doesn't mean her constituents feel the same way.  To the second, again, not really no.

18 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Um, have you forgotten my MoC? It's quite possible Bush will be just as known as Omar. 

No, I have not forgotten Omar.  And no, she does not have significantly better name ID than your average backbencher.  The GOP will probably use her statements on Israel in attack ads, sure, but that's a whole other ball of wax.

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Yes, Bush has repeated a bad talking point of hers several times. And she keeps leaning into it. That's the point of contention. Saying oh well, who cares, is not a good strategy, both for the individual and the party. There's no defending it.

This is..just the dumbest logic ever.  It's demonstrably not a "bad talking point" for her.  She keeps "leaning into it" because it's her signature issue.  That's why it's good strategy - for her.  And there's no defending you and others insisting she should be silenced on the issue simply because you disagree or can't fathom her "messaging" works for her.