Tennis the 9th: Medical times out and teenage superstars

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

26 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

I literally said I think she is the second best (F) tennis player of all time. 

There are many many on court arguments. Graff won all 4 majors at least 4 times. 22 grand slams in half the time it took Serena to win one more. 3 grand slams in a year 5 times. The golden slam. More overall tournaments. More weeks as number one. 

The only argument for Serena is one more grand slam. 

Serena's fastest first serve is 207 km/h. Graff's was 180. Let that sink in. You brought up baseball before. The difference between facing a pitcher with a fastball of 95mph and 100mph is significant. The gap in those first serves is even greater. When looking up the rankings for first serves, she doesn't even come up and her speed is considered average today.

[baxus]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

Serena's fastest first serve is 207 km/h.

So... Isner is the greatest of all time, then?

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Just now, baxus said:

So... Isner is the greatest of all time, then?

Lol no, but look at all the women who can break 200 now. 180 is like saying, "Yay, I ran the mile in under five minutes," not realizing that wasn't the standard anymore.

Also, Isner would completely fuck up Borg, because again, they would be seeing a level of speed and power they couldn't even imagine. And it's okay to admit that.

[baxus]

If you only go for her strength when discussing who is the greatest, then Serena has no business being mentioned along the "Big 3", or any other top-level men players since her strength is way below theirs.

[baxus]

Just now, Tywin et al. said:

Also, Isner would completely fuck up Borg, because again, they would be seeing a level of speed and power they couldn't even imagine. And it's okay to admit that.

First time they played, sure. Pretty soon, Isner would get his ass handed to him.

[baxus]

3 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Lol no, but look at all the women who can break 200 now. 180 is like saying, "Yay, I ran the mile in under five minutes," not realizing that wasn't the standard anymore.

Have a look at the list of fastest women's serve. Just jam-packed with all time greats, isn't it?

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

2 minutes ago, baxus said:

If you only go for her strength when discussing who is the greatest, then Serena has no business being mentioned along the "Big 3", or any other top-level men players since her strength is way below theirs.

I'll get back to your longer post in a bit, I really want to finish this video game and I'm on the final boss. 

I find this post a bit bizarre. Are you not able to separate men's and women's sports and then recognize women can also be uniquely great while not also being as athletic as their male counterparts? Katie Ledecky is an all-time great swimmer. Nobody saying that is also implying she could beat Phelps.

10 minutes ago, baxus said:

First time they played, sure. Pretty soon, Isner would get his ass handed to him.

Idk about that. The sheer size of the guy combined with his speed would likely shake greats from the 80's and 90's. I would again encourage you and others to watch the Ted Talk video I linked.

[BigFatCoward]

17 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Serena's fastest first serve is 207 km/h. Graff's was 180. Let that sink in. You brought up baseball before. The difference between facing a pitcher with a fastball of 95mph and 100mph is significant. The gap in those first serves is even greater. When looking up the rankings for first serves, she doesn't even come up and her speed is considered average today.

Fred Kerley is faster than Carl Lewis who's the greatest. This is dumb. You are being so 'american' about this. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

10 minutes ago, baxus said:

Have a look at the list of fastest women's serve. Just jam-packed with all time greats, isn't it?

You're badly missing the point. Look at the jump in skill dude. It's so significant. Use basketball and three point shooting if you need as a comparable example. It's night and day in the NBA from just a decade ago.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

2 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

Fred Kerley is faster than Carl Lewis who's the greatest. This is dumb. You are being so 'american' about this. 

Bolt is the greatest. What are you even arguing here? 

[lessthanluke]

10 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I'll get back to your longer post in a bit, I really want to finish this video game and I'm on the final boss. 

I find this post a bit bizarre. Are you not able to separate men's and women's sports and then recognize women can also be uniquely great while not also being as athletic as their male counterparts? Katie Ledecky is an all-time great swimmer. Nobody saying that is also implying she could beat Phelps.

Idk about that. The sheer size of the guy combined with his speed would likely shake greats from the 80's and 90's. I would again encourage you and others to watch the Ted Talk video I linked.

The Ted talk you linked doesn't back up what you're saying though... it basically says most of the improvements are down to the equipment. Did you even watch your own video?

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 minute ago, lessthanluke said:

The Ted talk you linked doesn't back up what you're saying though... it basically says most of the improvements are down to the equipment. Did you even watch your own video?

No, it said that improvements in equipment were the control. Body type specificity is the variable that's more impactful. 

[polishgenius]

Tywin, I've got to be honest, coming into reading this topic not knowing enough about the positions to have a firm opinion, you're doing a fantastic job of convincing me that Serena shouldn't be considered the GOAT, the arguments you're using being so out of whack with what seem reasonable ways to compare sport between eras.

[baxus]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

I find this post a bit bizarre. Are you not able to separate men's and women's sports and then recognize women can also be uniquely great while not also being as athletic as their male counterparts? Katie Ledecky is an all-time great swimmer. Nobody saying that is also implying she could beat Phelps.

Weren't you the one who lumped Serena up with the "Big 3"?

Katie Ledecky is a great swimmer, no doubt. Still, she's nowhere near as popular Phelps was nor was her impact on the sport comparable to his. I'm not even sure she'd compare favourably to Lochte or Dressel. Once again, a phenomenal swimmer, phenomenal athlete, very important in the sport, just not really in the same category as Phelps.

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

Idk about that. The sheer size of the guy combined with his speed would likely shake greats from the 80's and 90's. I would again encourage you and others to watch the Ted Talk video I linked.

The greats aren't greats just because they could hit the ball in a specific way, but because they could adapt to their opponent's style of play, find his weaknesses and exploit them. Or do you think they just go out on the court and say "oh, I'm #1 ranked player in the world and he's #24, so I'm winning without a problem"?

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

You're badly missing the point. Look at the jump in skill dude. It's so significant. Use basketball and three point shooting if you need as a comparable example. It's night and day in the NBA from just a decade ago.

First of all, I'd be very reluctant to use NBA as an example of a sport that has clearly advanced over the years. You are aware that there is a great argument for NBA in the '90s being higher quality than it is today? The player who's widely regarded as THE best ever and who's being used as benchmark for every new superstar has retired around 20 years ago?

Sure, more three pointers are being taken today than ever before, but that doesn't make the sport itself better. There's more to basketball than shooting and there's more to tennis than serve speed, and there's more to both than pure strength. Hell, weightlifting is solely about picking heavy stuff up and there's more to it than just pure strength.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

41 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

Tywin, I've got to be honest, coming into reading this topic not knowing enough about the positions to have a firm opinion, you're doing a fantastic job of convincing me that Serena shouldn't be considered the GOAT, the arguments you're using being so out of whack with what seem reasonable ways to compare sport between eras.

And I'm genuinely confused why that is. It feels like the counterargument I'm getting is the same as why some say that Bill Russell is a better basketball player than Jordan. Serena's single best ability was her best of all time serve. Pointing out just how much it was faster than Graff's seems like a fair comparison point to show just how much the game has changed in the generation after Graff's excellence.  

[baxus]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

No, it said that improvements in equipment were the control. Body type specificity is the variable that's more impactful. 

What exactly is the body type specificity for tennis? Either male or female, doesn't matter.

I mean, you have Federer, Nadal and Djokovic who are very differently built from each other and have different advantages compared to one another. Their styles of play are also very different, based on their qualities. There is no required height, weight, being right or left handed, or whatever other physical attribute that would make one a great tennis player. Hell, Sharapova had a heart condition (more likely, she had a "heart condition") that she was medicated for and still managed to win a bunch of major trophies.

If Serena's body type was such an advantage in tennis, where are other players with the same body type? It's been over 20 years since she's come up, there would be enough time for a whole generation or two to grow up and make their way through the ranks. Where are they? In either women's or men's tennis?

[BigFatCoward]

14 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

And I'm genuinely confused why that is. It feels like the counterargument I'm getting is the same as why some say that Bill Russell is a better basketball player than Jordan. Serena's single best ability was her best of all time serve. Pointing out just how much it was faster than Graff's seems like a fair comparison point to show just how much the game has changed in the generation after Graff's excellence.  

Fastest isn't best, Ivanisovic was a far better server than people who send the ball down 15km faster now. 

Serenas serve isn't even the fastest as pointed out above. And Graffs forehand is without doubt the greatest weapon in tennis history. Certainly better than Serenas serve. 

By every statistical measure other than GS where there is almost no difference, Graf was better. She was number one for 50 more weeks despite playing half as long. 

It's irrelevant how much you watched Graff. To understand someone's greatness you have to have been around when they were in their prime so you understand their aura and the inevitability of their win. Everybody says Sugar Ray Robinson is the greatest, I can't really comment based on a few videos as I wasn't there to judge. 

you were about 3 when steffi won the golden slam (though you seem to think a fast serve is more a measure of greatness than this uniquely great event). So you really don't have a clue. 

[polishgenius]

6 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

And I'm genuinely confused why that is.

 

 

Because you're taking all context out of it. You're arguing that all tennis across history should be considered exactly the same and players then should be looked at as if they had the same circumstances as they do now. I just don't think sport works that way.

With Michael Jordan as far as I can tell he's considered the GOAT because he changed basketball - the sport moved around him. You can make a pretty solid case I think that Serena is GOAT for similar reasons, that she was the first and best to take advantage in advancing medicine and technology and move thegame on with her presence, but that's not the same as 'she's stronger and faster than the players before the 00s so there'. I just don't think that's a very good argument. 

 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

Copper dear, it's Graf. One f is sufficient.

[BigFatCoward]

I tell you what. Tyson Fury would batter Ali, who's the greatest?