Tennis the 9th: Medical times out and teenage superstars

[A Horse Named Stranger]

Their head-to-head score says otherwise, tho.

1-1.

And Graf beat herself in that loss. Blowing a 4-2 lead in the third set. Yes, neither were at their peaks. Graf was bowing out (after injuries started to pile up) and Williams was just starting.

 

[Poobah]

37 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

It's a no brainer because if they played each other at their best Serena wouldn't just beat her, she'd dog walk her. I'm 100% confident of that. Graf only beats Serena if Serena is beating herself. You don't need to look at stats and accomplishments. Use your eyes. This is true on the men's side as well. The greats of yesteryear would likely get their asses kicked by Murray, and the gulf between him and the big three is rather large. Put Feds in Borg's era and he's a forgotten figure. The jump in quality today compared to the past is rather large. 

This argument feels a bit reductive. You have to consider the environment. How would Serena or Federer have done if they were born in the late 60s/early 70s? Or what would happen if one of those previous era greats had been born in this era and were thus equipped with modern sports technology, modern training regimens, surrounded with the vast teams of doctors, trainers, dietitians, sports psychologists, analysts and so on that modern players have, the enormous banks of data that can be used to improve both general personal performance and specific opponent-tailored strategies and so on, not to mention the shoulders of giants on which to stand.  It's an entirely different environment, a different game.

[Tywin et al.]

22 minutes ago, Poobah said:

This argument feels a bit reductive. You have to consider the environment. How would Serena or Federer have done if they were born in the late 60s/early 70s? Or what would happen if one of those previous era greats had been born in this era and were thus equipped with modern sports technology, modern training regimens, surrounded with the vast teams of doctors, trainers, dietitians, sports psychologists, analysts and so on that modern players have, the enormous banks of data that can be used to improve both general personal performance and specific opponent-tailored strategies and so on, not to mention the shoulders of giants on which to stand.  It's an entirely different environment, a different game.

I'm well aware of this and the issue still stands, Serena's serve would melt them.

This is often brought up with basketball. Bill Russell is the greatest champion and king of his era, but most fans believe if you gave him all the benefits of modern times he'd still get destroyed by LeBron, Shaq, Duncan, etc. 

Anyways, I think you'll enjoy this video:

 

[BigFatCoward]

Using your position @Tywin et al.the 50th best current baseball player is greater than babe Ruth. The 100th best cyclist would walk all over Eddy Merckx. Almost all of Michael Phelps world records are gone. You can only compare people to their eras, and Graff was far more dominant in hers than Serena is. 

[baxus]

 

6 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

It's a no brainer because if they played each other at their best Serena wouldn't just beat her, she'd dog walk her. I'm 100% confident of that. Graf only beats Serena if Serena is beating herself. You don't need to look at stats and accomplishments. Use your eyes. This is true on the men's side as well. The greats of yesteryear would likely get their asses kicked by Murray, and the gulf between him and the big three is rather large. Put Feds in Borg's era and he's a forgotten figure. The jump in quality today compared to the past is rather large. 

Wow, how obvious it is that you haven't seen Graf play.

And this whole "the only way to beat Serena is if she's beating herself" really has no basis in reality. Not trying to diminish her career or her accomplishments but she did have quite a few surprising losses over the years and while many were self-inflicted a vast majority were not.

[BigFatCoward]

43 minutes ago, baxus said:

 

Wow, how obvious it is that you haven't seen Graf play.

And this whole "the only way to beat Serena is if she's beating herself" really has no basis in reality. Not trying to diminish her career or her accomplishments but she did have quite a few surprising losses over the years and while many were self-inflicted a vast majority were not.

I'm sure he said he was in his mid 30s. So was about 13 years old when steffi won her last open, and about 2 when she won her golden slam. 

 

[baxus]

Ok, I'm in my late 30s, but have still seen her play.

Sure, I don't remember her golden slam, but I remember rivalry with Monika Seles, short-lived as it may have been.

Either way, I'm sure there's more than enough of her matches to be found online. Not saying he has to see her matches, but in that case he should be much less dismissive of her.

[Tywin et al.]

6 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

Using your position @Tywin et al.the 50th best current baseball player is greater than babe Ruth. The 100th best cyclist would walk all over Eddy Merckx. Almost all of Michael Phelps world records are gone. You can only compare people to their eras, and Graff was far more dominant in hers than Serena is. 

Pretty much every baseball analysts worth listening to will tell you Babe Ruth would be a terrible player in today's game.

[Tywin et al.]

2 hours ago, baxus said:

Either way, I'm sure there's more than enough of her matches to be found online. Not saying he has to see her matches, but in that case he should be much less dismissive of her.

Dude I've watched classic women's matches from yesteryear. I'm not dismissing Graf's greatness, just that I don't think she'd have much of a chance against Serena at her best because no one could beat her at her best. Just think about the Greatest Peaks series from the NBA thread. Serena's greatest peak is finding a level of Super Saiyan no other woman has yet reached. 

[BigFatCoward]

25 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

. Serena's greatest peak is finding a level of Super Saiyan no other woman has yet reached. 

Steffi won the golden slam. What's a better peak than that? Her 4 year peak involved 14 finals of 15, winning 9, losing 5 and semi final in the other (she didn't compete in aus one year). 

Her finals in 1988 were against Evert, Zvereva 6-0 6-0, Navratilova and Sabbatini. Once Henin and Klisters retired who has Williams been beating? 

[Tywin et al.]

16 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

Her finals in 1988 were against Evert, Zvereva 6-0 6-0, Navratilova and Sabbatini. Once Henin and Klisters retired who has Williams been beating? 

For starters, her sister, who I think would have completely destroyed Evert and Navratilova. You guys are massively underestimating the jump in strength and athleticism the Williams sisters injected into the sport. What they were doing before has been rendered a different sport now because of how they changed it. Nowadays women's players want to be like them. The power game today is night and day. Osaka, for example, if she wasn't in her head would fuck up a lot of greats from other eras because she's bigger, stronger, faster than them by leaps and bounds. Idk why anyone even mentions Evert in these debates. She'd be a joke if you put her in a Final today against any top 25 player. Just imagine her playing Azarenka, even the declined version. One serve from the latter and Evert would be wondering if she's playing an alien. The game has changed a lot in a short time.

[BigFatCoward]

Give her a wooden racket and Chris Evert would tie her in knots. Especially on the clay. She would annihilate her. She is all power and no guile. 

[David Selig]

Comparing players from different eras is always hard, but in tennis so much has changed in terms of racket technology and playing surfaces that it's almost a different sport than it was even 30 years ago, let alone earlier. You just wouldn't be able to play a modern style with the rackets Evert and Navratilova used. Who knows what kind of players they would have been if they had had access to contemporary rackets and sports medicine.

Having said that, I think Serena, even though I strongly dislike her playing style, has the best claim for GOAT female player because she dominated during an era when the strength and depth of her competition was higher than in any earlier era.

[BigFatCoward]

Shes definitely in the conversation. I go Steffi > Serena > Martina. But any order of those 3 is acceptable.

The problem I have is the statement of fact that its Serena. Also I rate longevity less than peaks, and Graff was far better over 10- 11 years than Serena was. 

Also Graffs forehand is the greatest shot in tennis full stop, male or female. 

[Tywin et al.]

19 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

Give her a wooden racket and Chris Evert would tie her in knots. Especially on the clay. She would annihilate her. She is all power and no guile. 

Serena's left leg is probably stronger than Evert's entire body. Hyperbole, I know, but Evert's playing weight was 125 pounds. She lacks the strength and athleticism needed today and would get fucked up by today's players even if we gave her a year of modern training in her prime. 

[BigFatCoward]

22 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Serena's left leg is probably stronger than Evert's entire body. Hyperbole, I know, but Evert's playing weight was 125 pounds. She lacks the strength and athleticism needed today and would get fucked up by today's players even if we gave her a year of modern training in her prime. 

Henin used to outsmart Serena all the time. She's no bigger or stronger than Evert. And if Evert was in this Era she would have the same trainers and nutrition as everyone else. 

All I can conclude is you think Serena in the 80s would be the same size and strength and condition she is now. And she wouldn't at all. There is literally no reason to suppose she would. She would be a bit stronger than everyone else in an era when it didn't matter as much. 

[Tywin et al.]

15 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

Henin used to outsmart Serena all the time. She's no bigger or stronger than Evert. And if Evert was in this Era she would have the same trainers and nutrition as everyone else. 

All I can conclude is you think Serena in the 80s would be the same size and strength and condition she is now. And she wouldn't at all. There is literally no reason to suppose she would. She would be a bit stronger than everyone else in an era when it didn't matter as much. 

Henin. Really. Way to show your ass. 

Just admit you really dislike Serena and that's why you won't give her your flowers. There's no on court argument to make otherwise.

[BigFatCoward]

21 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Henin. Really. Way to show your ass. 

Just admit you really dislike Serena and that's why you won't give her your flowers. There's no on court argument to make otherwise.

I literally said I think she is the second best (F) tennis player of all time. 

There are many many on court arguments. Graff won all 4 majors at least 4 times. 22 grand slams in half the time it took Serena to win one more. 3 grand slams in a year 5 times. The golden slam. More overall tournaments. More weeks as number one. 

The only argument for Serena is one more grand slam. 

[polishgenius]

This whole argument is happening because you're using different definitions of 'greatest'.

Obviously it's never been formally set anywhere but fwiw I think BFC and baxus' is the one most people mean when they're discussing GOATs. Tywin just means 'the best'. 

 

[baxus]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

Serena's left leg is probably stronger than Evert's entire body. Hyperbole, I know, but Evert's playing weight was 125 pounds. She lacks the strength and athleticism needed today and would get fucked up by today's players even if we gave her a year of modern training in her prime. 

It's a good thing we're talking about weightlifting so physical strength is the only factor. Oh, wait...

No one ever tried to deny Serena is physically dominant and would've been in any era, but she's not that clearly dominant when it comes to overall tennis skills. Sure, she's one of the best women tennis players of all time. Maybe she's even THE best, but it's not as if there's no other contenders.

She's been knocked out of GSs before quarterfinals 27 times. While that is spread across 24 years of her career, it's still more than enough to discredit "she can only lose if she is beating herself" argument. As far as "she's the most dominant ever", Serena won 3 GSs in a single year "only" twice, while Graf did it four times, in addition to that one year she won all four.

5 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

This whole argument is happening because you're using different definitions of 'greatest'.

Obviously it's never been formally set anywhere but fwiw I think BFC and baxus' is the one most people mean when they're discussing GOATs. Tywin just means 'the best'. 

Could be, but how would we determine who is "the best"? We can't just take my word for it, no more than we can Tywin's. There needs to be some data we use to form an opinion. Otherwise it's just a matter of preference.