Tennis the 9th: Medical times out and teenage superstars

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

11 minutes ago, baxus said:

Including Serena makes sense the same way it would make sense to include the best WNBA player in history (you take your pick) into the Jordan vs. Lebron debate.

Not really considering there's never been a WNBA player who has had any kind cultural or financial impact comparable to Serena. There is a very short list of athletes that transcend their sport and she's on it. The NFL will carry on without Brady. The NBA will too without LeBron. Football will miss Messi and Ronaldo, but it too doesn't need to worry about its future. Even men's tennis will eventually be fine without the big three. OTOH, golf clearly hasn't been able to carry on without Tiger. He's still the biggest draw despite being old, broken and not very competitive. Serena's impact on her sport is closer to Tiger's than it is to Brady's or LeBron's. 

[Calibandar]

13 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

The current top 16 of the women's game are the most anonymous group of tennis players in history. I have hardly heard of any or them. 

Yes, but at the same time this is nothing new. Rankings dont mean nearly as much in women's tennis because a number 50 can easily beat a number 5, there are just barely any standout players. But again, to me thats certainly not something of just recently. The top 10 2 years from now is likely to feature 9 or 9 new players, with several in the current top 10 having retired early or having fallen off a cliff way before you'd expect.

 

9 hours ago, 3CityApache said:

It's really unbelievable to see Serena being able to defeat #2 at 40, even if Kontaveit's rank is somewhat undeserved. Imagine what she could do if she was physically as fit as her sister.

 

Conversely, I dont find that shocking at all. Serena has for such a long time stood head and shoulders above other players in her field that her beating another anonymous top 5 player is par for the course. If she reached the final I would applaud her for it, but I would certainly not be the least surprised.

In men's tennis, saw van Rijthoven fall to Casper Ruud yesterday, the man who is basically a rock, so solid.

Its a shame because Rijthoven's game is so attractive, superb shot maker a la Shapovalov. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Nadal looked in danger down 2-6, 2-4, but rallied back to win in four sets after possibly breaking his nose.

[baxus]

12 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

OTOH, golf clearly hasn't been able to carry on without Tiger. He's still the biggest draw despite being old, broken and not very competitive. Serena's impact on her sport is closer to Tiger's than it is to Brady's or LeBron's. 

First of all, I couldn't care less about golf. It's a sport with less caloric expenditure than regular walking, so that should tell you everything you need to know about it. It's a ruined walk.

And no, women's tennis will carry on without Serena just like it is carrying on de facto without Federer for the last couple of years and will one day without Nadal and Djokovic. She has already missed quite a while due to pregnancy and motherhood and I didn't see women's tennis collapsing, did you? Steffi Graf retired and women's tennis carried on, the same will happen with Serena.

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that you are suffering from US-centric point of view - that without a US star the sport will suffer. You can see how true that is by just switching to men's tennis where there hasn't been a relevant US player during pretty much the whole of the golden era we've been having with Big 3.

[3CityApache]

Of course tennis will carry on, everything always does, but it doesn't change the fact, that what Serena did for the sport was as remarkable as the Big 3. Do you expect anyone to collect 20+ slam titles in the next decade or so? I would be surprised if any woman player had 5 or 6 by 2030.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

3 hours ago, baxus said:

First of all, I couldn't care less about golf. It's a sport with less caloric expenditure than regular walking, so that should tell you everything you need to know about it. It's a ruined walk.

You can argue it's not even a sport. But you also need to view it through other people's perspectives for the purpose of this conversation. 

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And no, women's tennis will carry on without Serena just like it is carrying on de facto without Federer for the last couple of years and will one day without Nadal and Djokovic. She has already missed quite a while due to pregnancy and motherhood and I didn't see women's tennis collapsing, did you? Steffi Graf retired and women's tennis carried on, the same will happen with Serena.

It certainly gets less attention state side, which does drive a lot of the revenue, so

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I could be wrong, but it seems to me that you are suffering from US-centric point of view - that without a US star the sport will suffer. You can see how true that is by just switching to men's tennis where there hasn't been a relevant US player during pretty much the whole of the golden era we've been having with Big 3.

Of course I'm applying a US-centric view, how could you expect me not to? That's why I'm constantly asking for the perspective from Europe, and more importantly, from specific countries. 

And yes, without a US star the sport will suffer because it will be less of a draw to the biggest financial market. That's kind of obvious. Marketing for tennis here over the last 20 years has been heavily relying on Serena and her success has brought a ton of people into the men's game. Culturally she means more here than the big three combined. Casual fans may well check out after she's gone which likely will hurt the sport. 

[Spockydog]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

You can argue it's not even a sport.

I'm hardly the biggest golf fan in the world - other than a few majors I don't really watch it. But to say something like that is a bit silly.

You need absolutely immense levels of skill to golf at the highest level. The level of technical expertise required is probably unmatched in any other sport.

I'm a half-decent footballer. I competed in the 100m and the long jump at a relatively high level as a schoolboy. But I cannot hit a golf ball to save my life. 

[BigFatCoward]

43 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

I'm hardly the biggest golf fan in the world - other than a few majors I don't really watch it. But to say something like that is a bit silly.

You need absolutely immense levels of skill to golf at the highest level. The level of technical expertise required is probably unmatched in any other sport.

I'm a half-decent footballer. I competed in the 100m and the long jump at a high level as a schoolboy. But I cannot hit a golf ball to save my life. 

I would say it's more the mental strength that impresses me.

Dead ball games where its just you against the world, rather than reacting in games such as football, rugby etc are always won upstairs. 

[IheartIheartTesla]

I'm not watching the tennis, but just reading about it on the internet is giving me anxiety for Serena.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

12 hours ago, Spockydog said:

I'm hardly the biggest golf fan in the world - other than a few majors I don't really watch it. But to say something like that is a bit silly.

You need absolutely immense levels of skill to golf at the highest level. The level of technical expertise required is probably unmatched in any other sport.

I'm a half-decent footballer. I competed in the 100m and the long jump at a relatively high level as a schoolboy. But I cannot hit a golf ball to save my life. 

A lot of people, especially athletes from other sports, don't view golf as a sport. I don't agree, but there is an argument to be made that walking can't be the most physically exhausting aspect of your game.

3 minutes ago, IheartIheartTesla said:

I'm not watching the tennis, but just reading about it on the internet is giving me anxiety for Serena.

She's choking. It should already be over yet she's down a set and giving away so many freebees. She was up 5-3 in both sets and blew it on her serve, twice in the second and now it's 6-6.  

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

All good things must inevitably come to an end. Farewell Serena. Thanks for more than 20 years of great memories!!! 

Context for the length of her career:
 

 

[baxus]

23 hours ago, 3CityApache said:

Of course tennis will carry on, everything always does, but it doesn't change the fact, that what Serena did for the sport was as remarkable as the Big 3. Do you expect anyone to collect 20+ slam titles in the next decade or so? I would be surprised if any woman player had 5 or 6 by 2030.

Do you think anyone has foreseen that within a decade of Sampras retiring we'd get not one but three best tennis players in history who would all three surpass his records by a longshot? Do you think that no one was worried after Steffi Graf's career was coming to an end? And yet the whole generation of world class players emerged, Serena obviously being the best one. Michael Jordan retired, and Kobe and Lebron emerged, Cristiano Ronaldo and Messi's careers coming to an end and Haaland and Mbappe emerge etc.

It's normal to worry about what the sport would look like after biggest stars retire but somehow someone new always emerges.

20 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

You can argue it's not even a sport. But you also need to view it through other people's perspectives for the purpose of this conversation. 

It certainly gets less attention state side, which does drive a lot of the revenue, so

Of course I'm applying a US-centric view, how could you expect me not to? That's why I'm constantly asking for the perspective from Europe, and more importantly, from specific countries. 

And yes, without a US star the sport will suffer because it will be less of a draw to the biggest financial market. That's kind of obvious. Marketing for tennis here over the last 20 years has been heavily relying on Serena and her success has brought a ton of people into the men's game. Culturally she means more here than the big three combined. Casual fans may well check out after she's gone which likely will hurt the sport. 

So, how exactly has men's tennis fared in US over the last 15 years or so? Have you seen a significant decline in popularity, money involved etc.? I don't have the data, but based on number of big tournaments in US, fan interest, media interest, prize money etc. I don't think the sport has suffered one bit. Do you think we are to thank Isner and Opelka for maintaining interest in the game in US or could it possibly have been the rivalry between 3 best players in history of the sport?

Serena's not playing at top level for a while now, has taken time off from sport due to pregnancy and motherhood, and the sport carried on without suffering much. She's been becoming less and less relevant over the years, it's not as if she's retiring at the height of the career to cause much of an upset.

7 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

A lot of people, especially athletes from other sports, don't view golf as a sport. I don't agree, but there is an argument to be made that walking can't be the most physically exhausting aspect of your game.

I'm not the sport police, to determine what is and what's not a sport. People are free to enjoy whatever they please, but if I had a chunk of a couple of hours to spend on physical activity I would never pick golf. Cycling, swimming, football or basketball with friends, weightlifting, you name it. I'd rather take the dog for a walk than play golf. Or grab a couple of beers with my mates.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, baxus said:

Do you think anyone has foreseen that within a decade of Sampras retiring we'd get not one but three best tennis players in history who would all three surpass his records by a longshot? Do you think that no one was worried after Steffi Graf's career was coming to an end? And yet the whole generation of world class players emerged, Serena obviously being the best one. Michael Jordan retired, and Kobe and Lebron emerged, Cristiano Ronaldo and Messi's careers coming to an end and Haaland and Mbappe emerge etc.

It's normal to worry about what the sport would look like after biggest stars retire but somehow someone new always emerges.

Not all sports are built the same way with the same pipelines.

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So, how exactly has men's tennis fared in US over the last 15 years or so? Have you seen a significant decline in popularity, money involved etc.? I don't have the data, but based on number of big tournaments in US, fan interest, media interest, prize money etc. I don't think the sport has suffered one bit. Do you think we are to thank Isner and Opelka for maintaining interest in the game in US or could it possibly have been the rivalry between 3 best players in history of the sport?

Men's tennis in the US is a third tier sport at best. I'd be surprised if 1% of the population knew who those two were. OTOH, Serena has universal name recognition. Serena is the draw for many and they stay for the men's side. She moves the needle in a unique way here which is why the Tiger comparisons are fair, even if you don't care for golf.

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I'm not the sport police, to determine what is and what's not a sport. People are free to enjoy whatever they please, but if I had a chunk of a couple of hours to spend on physical activity I would never pick golf. Cycling, swimming, football or basketball with friends, weightlifting, you name it. I'd rather take the dog for a walk than play golf. Or grab a couple of beers with my mates.

You can grab a couple of beers with your mates while playing golf. 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

Or you can just grab a couple of beers with your mates, without playing golf.

 

[Jeor]

Well, Serena's out. She should have won that match, serving for both sets, but basically choked. Tomjlianovic did well to maintain her own composure, especially with all the crowd. I guess sometimes that can be advantageous if the weight of expectation is on you to lose.

This article originally from the New York Post is perhaps a bit overly negative but Serena has always been a mixed bag for me. Incredible tennis player, the greatest women's player of all time, legendary competitive spirit, inspiring to many, trailblazer extraordinaire, especially in terms of longevity and motherhood. But added to this are the parts of her that are so often willfully overlooked by a fawning, all-or-nothing fanbase and media - mediocre sportsmanship, abuse of officials, and an overbearing sense of entitlement. People are complex and both pictures of Serena hold true.

For the record, I think she deserves the adulations and tributes coming her way in terms of her accomplishments, competitiveness, and career.

[BigFatCoward]

I don't understand the 'Serena is the greatest' position as if its a fact.  She's in the conversation definitely, but it took her 23 years to win what Steffi won in about 10.  

[A Horse Named Stranger]

Yep, there's a discussion to be had by folks, who are far more interested in it than me, about who is the GOAT of womens' tennis. Graf or Williams. You can make an argument for either. Personally, I'd also be more inclined to make that argument for Graf. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

3 hours ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Yep, there's a discussion to be had by folks, who are far more interested in it than me, about who is the GOAT of womens' tennis. Graf or Williams. You can make an argument for either. Personally, I'd also be more inclined to make that argument for Graf. 

I've heard multiple all-time greats say if you put Serena in any of the other greats' eras, she would have rolfstomped them into looking like Sharapova too. At her apex she had the best serve ever by a wide margin and was in the conversation for being among the best returners and having the best lateral movement. I think there's more of an argument for Serena being the best female athlete ever than there is for her not being the best women's tennis player.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

If you go by career achievements.

Graf was the last female player to win a Grand Slam (winning all majors (Australian, US and French Open and Wimbledon) in a calendar year (1988)) and she even topped it off with the Gold Medal at the Olympics. Williams never managed to. She came close by winning three, but never all four.

She spent overall quite a few more weeks as #1 on the world ranking than Williams. (Consecutive weeks as #1 they are tied).

Williams has won exactly one more open than Graf, and Graf's career lasted 13 years, which is signifcantly shorter than Williams. Of course that argument cuts both ways, as you can say, her longevity is actually an argument for Williams.

On merit you can really make a claim for Graf being the GOAT of womens' tennis. 

 Like I said, you can make an argument for Williams being the GOAT, but like our copper pointed out, it's really not a no-brainer.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

It's a no brainer because if they played each other at their best Serena wouldn't just beat her, she'd dog walk her. I'm 100% confident of that. Graf only beats Serena if Serena is beating herself. You don't need to look at stats and accomplishments. Use your eyes. This is true on the men's side as well. The greats of yesteryear would likely get their asses kicked by Murray, and the gulf between him and the big three is rather large. Put Feds in Borg's era and he's a forgotten figure. The jump in quality today compared to the past is rather large.