Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted September 7, 2022 Share Posted September 7, 2022 45 minutes ago, Poobah said: I think conduct and sportsmanship are entirely valid qualities to consider when assessing a sportsperson's "greatness" - a great, especially someone you want to crown as the greatest should be someone who others should aspire to emulate, a hero, an inspiration. Whereas the examples shown by Serena (and others with similar or worse behaviour) mostly show how elite sport and our wider culture is willing to let people get away with inexcusable behaviour on absurd grounds such as supposed genius or skill. Man some of you act like she got drunk, ran someone over and got away with it. Yes, there are a couple of instances of her snapping at refs, but it's forgotten that in some of those instances she was actually right. And talking back to refs is not exactly a rare occurrence. Shit, McEnroe's post career success is probably in part due to him being a shit heel to refs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted September 7, 2022 Share Posted September 7, 2022 I agree in terms of Serena "being a bad person," it's pretty much the same as Jordan and not that big of a deal. Still, though, juxtaposing her with Graf it stands out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted September 7, 2022 Share Posted September 7, 2022 2 hours ago, DMC said: I agree in terms of Serena "being a bad person," it's pretty much the same as Jordan and not that big of a deal. Still, though, juxtaposing her with Graf it stands out. Kyrgios is screaming every version one can take on "fuck" to his box. The pearl clutching would be 100 times greater if Serena did it. Personally I like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted September 7, 2022 Share Posted September 7, 2022 17 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: Kyrgios is screaming every version one can take on "fuck" to his box. The pearl clutching would be 100 times greater if Serena did it. Personally I like it. I do have to admit it's not a good look that a bunch of Europeans are complaining about you being too "American" in arguing for the black woman over the German. That's patently unfair to the posters and Graf, of course, but the optics are noticeable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted September 7, 2022 Share Posted September 7, 2022 5 hours ago, Tywin et al. said: Tyson was the best boxer for a period and in the conversation for best ever because of his next level punching power. Serena is similar, expect she was also great at the other aspects of the sport Eh, to be fair, Tyson was also great at other aspects of boxing. If it was just about power, Earnie Shavers would be considered on that level. Hell, even setting aside all his skill, it was his speed that really set Tyson apart from other great power-punching heavyweights- on its own it was unusual but not unheard of. (also no-one would seriously consider Tyson in the conversation for best ever or even really for best for his time, although in fairness to you that's because in boxing we have weight classes) eta: I do think the argument that Serena isn't the GOAT because she's not nice is absolutely loopy. Apart from not being relevant as others have pointed out, almost every great sportsman in any discipline ever has lost their shit at some point- some of them far more consistently and egregiously than Serena has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted September 7, 2022 Share Posted September 7, 2022 3 minutes ago, DMC said: I do have to admit it's not a good look that a bunch of Europeans are complaining about you being too "American" in arguing for the black woman over the German. That's patently unfair to the posters and Graf, of course, but the optics are noticeable. And on cue, he destroys his racket after losing a tight five setter. I like that. Give me more pro wrestling vibes in my sports. That's far more interesting than the robots who give you nothing. Regarding race and gender, I've tried to discuss those dynamics before and the reception has not been great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted September 7, 2022 Share Posted September 7, 2022 13 minutes ago, polishgenius said: Eh, to be fair, Tyson was also great at other aspects of boxing. If it was just about power, Earnie Shavers would be considered on that level. Hell, even setting aside all his skill, it was his speed that really set Tyson apart from other great power-punching heavyweights- on its own it was unusual but not unheard of. (also no-one would seriously consider Tyson in the conversation for best ever or even really for best for his time, although in fairness to you that's because in boxing we have weight classes) I'll defer to you when it comes to boxing as I'm just a casual at best. I just always hear Tyson being in the conversation for the best and probably the guy you'd least want to fight without gloves. Shit, did I just open another wormhole... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted September 7, 2022 Share Posted September 7, 2022 3 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: Shit, did I just open another wormhole... Doubt it. Does anyone watch boxing anymore? I mean, it still gets packed at BDubs during big fights, but it's also pretty clear no one really follows the sport when I do unfortunately encounter that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted September 7, 2022 Share Posted September 7, 2022 Just now, DMC said: but it's also pretty clear no one really follows the sport Only in America. I did just get a gig writing about the big boxing fights over at Bloody Elbow so I'm biased but... 6 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: I just always hear Tyson being in the conversation for the best and probably the guy you'd least want to fight without gloves. Boxing's a bit unique in the way for non-hardcore fans heavyweights get far, far more attention than anyone else but you'd normally account for the weight classes when discussing who's best. So like for me Pernell Whitaker was unquestionably a better boxer than Tyson in that time frame, but no-one who isn't really into boxing knows much, if anything, about him. (you're not wrong about the last part though) </boxingnerd> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted September 7, 2022 Share Posted September 7, 2022 1 minute ago, polishgenius said: Only in America. I did just get a gig writing about the big boxing fights over at Bloody Elbow so I'm biased but... Fair enough. One of my closest grad student friends at Pitt was a Mancunian. He was really into "big fights" too, which at first I thought meant boxing, but actually it was almost solely UFC/MMA. Still, that really is my only sample among Europeans so I really don't know what the fuck I'm talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted September 7, 2022 Share Posted September 7, 2022 Put it this way, the 6th largest live crowd in attendance for a boxing event in history was this last April, when Tyson Fury fought Dylian Whyte at Wembley. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigFatCoward Posted September 7, 2022 Share Posted September 7, 2022 33 minutes ago, polishgenius said: Put it this way, the 6th largest live crowd in attendance for a boxing event in history was this last April, when Tyson Fury fought Dylian Whyte at Wembley. Let's not forget Carl Froch and 80,000 at wembley, he certainly won't let us. I don't know if it's like this elsewhere but it is weird how loyal locals are to their fighters, any local fighting for a world title can pretty much guarantee selling out a stadium venue. Anyway back on tennis, I think Serena is number 2. But if (as Tywin is) we are counting doubles then Navratilova pisses all over her and Steffi with 59 combined (also winning a GS mixed doubles at nearly 50 boggles my mind, that's me in 3 years, I groan when I see stairs). It's best just to leave Court out of the conversation, the horrible old bigot, but if we are talking 'greatest' she undoubtedly does have a claim. I'm not down with this 'weak era' nonsense. you can only beat what's in front of you. I've always wondered why other than McEnroe, none of the top men play doubles? 5 sets rather than 3 probably having something to do with it, and maybe historically prize money differences? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted September 7, 2022 Share Posted September 7, 2022 44 minutes ago, polishgenius said: Put it this way, the 6th largest live crowd in attendance for a boxing event in history was this last April, when Tyson Fury fought Dylian Whyte at Wembley. ......I'm not trying to argue with you. Thought the last post made that clear. Chill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted September 7, 2022 Share Posted September 7, 2022 1 minute ago, DMC said: ......I'm not trying to argue with you. Thought the last post made that clear. Chill. I know we sometimes tetch at each other but my last post wasn't even slightly rancorous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted September 7, 2022 Share Posted September 7, 2022 We clearly need to create a thread dedicated to debating sports collectively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted September 7, 2022 Share Posted September 7, 2022 Just now, polishgenius said: I know we sometimes tetch at each other but my last post wasn't even slightly rancorous. Yeah, it definitely wasn't. I just got a bunch of notifications while smoking a cigarette, including BFC who must have edited it out, and was responding quickly. Anyway, I get your point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted September 7, 2022 Share Posted September 7, 2022 5 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: We clearly need to create a thread dedicated to debating sports collectively. I only made it to namedrop my favourite sportsperson from a sport I don't like 2 minutes ago, DMC said: Yeah, it definitely wasn't. I just got a bunch of notifications while smoking a cigarette, including BFC who must have edited it out, and was responding quickly. Anyway, I get your point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poobah Posted September 7, 2022 Share Posted September 7, 2022 12 hours ago, Tywin et al. said: Man some of you act like she got drunk, ran someone over and got away with it. Yes, there are a couple of instances of her snapping at refs, but it's forgotten that in some of those instances she was actually right. And talking back to refs is not exactly a rare occurrence. Shit, McEnroe's post career success is probably in part due to him being a shit heel to refs. She threatened physical violence against the foot fault judge at the US open. I'm sorry I don't care how fucking competitive you are that shit is so out of order if I were Grand Poobah of sport that'd be a lifetime ban. And no I don't think McEnroe or Kyrgios or any of the others I alluded to in my previous post when I mentioned others with similar or worse behaviour should get away with their antics either. Hell after his antivax bullshit and Australia shenanigans the Djoker will never be the greatest in my eyes no matter how many more titles he manages to bag in his desperation to receive the recognition and adoration he feels he deserves. I don't have any kids and I probably never will but if I did I sure as fuck wouldn't want them looking up to people like these. They all badly need therapy and anger management classes. And there are other options than emotionless robot and screaming rage. Plenty of tennis players have moved me with their totally healthy expressions of emotion in both victory and defeat, and earned my respect with their grace and sportsmanship in the latter especially - it's easy to show grace in victory, show me a player who's a good loser, that's someone to admire. Anyway I already put far too much energy in to this discussion so I think I'm done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calibandar Posted September 7, 2022 Share Posted September 7, 2022 Sinner vs Alcaraz tonight, 2 of the biggest talents in the last few years. I'd be excited for it, if I wasnt sleeping since it starts at 3am. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted September 8, 2022 Share Posted September 8, 2022 3 hours ago, Calibandar said: Sinner vs Alcaraz tonight, 2 of the biggest talents in the last few years. I'd be excited for it, if I wasnt sleeping since it starts at 3am. So looking forward to this. Iga's looking great right now and Tiafoe breaks the American drought of missing just the semis for nearly over 15 years. All three have very bright futures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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