The Wheel of Time and Lord Varys (second attempt)

[fionwe1987]

On 10/16/2021 at 4:52 PM, Lord Varys said:

If there was gender equality back in the Age of Legends - which apparently is the case - then this would not continue into the later ages. The role of women in the society would be increased while men would be pushed in the background.

But this is the case. You haven't seen much of it in book 1, but this is absolutely the case. 

On 10/16/2021 at 4:52 PM, Lord Varys said:

The Aes Sedai being all female and the most powerful organization in the continent would result in them being viewed as the epitome of womanhood. The gifted woman would be a woman more powerful than any other being on the planet, far beyond what monarchs and lords could hope to accomplish.

That doesn't track. Elite organizations with great political power can and do breed mistrust and suspicion. 

This isn't true in every society in WoT. But it is in the mainland, and that is explored in great depth, as we gain deeper insight into the White Tower. 

On 10/16/2021 at 4:52 PM, Lord Varys said:

Like certain facts of reality allowed patriarchy to develop and control women, the factual realities of the post-Breaking world would also shape cultural reality in Jordan's world ... but it apparently didn't. At least not to the degree one would expect it to happen.

We can argue the degree to which it should shape culture. I doubt there's one answer, honestly, to how such an event would shape an egalitarian society.

But once again, your criticism is less meaningful in the first book than it would be if you included the entire series. I'd say keep reading and see if your assessment of the degree of change in the world remains as it is now. 

On 10/16/2021 at 4:52 PM, Lord Varys said:

The very idea that women in this world would need men to protect them from anything is silly.

I'm really confused why you think so. I can see objecting to women thinking only men can protect them, if that is what they think. But that doesn't broadly seem to be the case. And Jordan certainly doesn't let it go at "men are better at violence". He challenges that assumption a lot in the coming books. 

 

On 10/16/2021 at 4:52 PM, Lord Varys said:

They are the ones who bring forth the sorceresses. They do not need men for anything, and they, technically, had 3,000 years to ensure that women rule the world, not men. And that's what would have happened. Men would have viewed themselves as potential dangers, would have refused to take leadership positions because at any time one of them could be revealed to be a madman using saidin. They would internalize either outright self-hatred or at least skepticism about themselves and their abilities - like women were/are taught in the real world.

Women do not all internalize any such uniform message, and it's a little bizarre to claim such a thing, firstly.

But men wouldn't see themselves as potential dangers simply because channeling is exceedingly rare, especially now. And unless you're the even rarer person born with the spark, you're in the clear once you're 30. 

On 10/16/2021 at 4:52 PM, Lord Varys said:

Arthur Hawkwing would have made much more sense as a female ruler, perhaps a woman who could use the One Power but refused to join the Aes Sedai or broke with the order, explaining why things ended the way they did.

Why? 

I mean, it's not a bad idea, but I don't see why it has to be either/or. 

On 10/16/2021 at 4:52 PM, Lord Varys said:

That isn't really the issue. Jordan claims that Wisdoms and Aes Sedai are rarely married because men cannot really accept or get along with a woman much more powerful than they are.

This isn't true for Wisdoms, who in different places do marry.

For Aes Sedai that's Lan's explanation, and that maybe true for him, in part, but most Aes Sedai don't marry not because no one will have them but because they will outlive their spouses, who will be aging normally while the Aes Sedai is more or less locked in stasis. 

This, by the way, is again only true of the mainlands. Other cultures have different customs when it comes to female channelers marrying. 

On 10/16/2021 at 4:52 PM, Lord Varys said:

That makes little sense in a world effectively run by women who much more powerful than any man. In such a world, men wouldn't really develop the notion that they have a right to fret about being outshone by a woman. Nobody would take the husband of an Aes Sedai seriously, anyway. At least not compared to her.

Yeah that explanation by Lan is fairly non-representative of the rest of the books. We see plenty of men married to or seeking to marry women of much higher station. 

On 10/16/2021 at 4:52 PM, Lord Varys said:

Wasn't that basically what marriage was for thousands of years? In a world where magical power gives you status even within the magical order itself, it is kind of odd that the most powerful Aes Sedai is not also the most desirable wife ... because like the Aes Sedai teach each other to submit to the top dog among them, they would have long ago taught the society they live in that men also submit to them.

Aes Sedai don't discuss their internal heirarchy with outsiders, so it's not like men can go court the most powerful sister because she's publicly known to be the strongest. That's an internal custom, one they don't even share with Novices and Accepted. It is not something the rest of the world is aware of. At all. 

On 10/16/2021 at 4:52 PM, Lord Varys said:

Prestige as a potential spouse does not only come from physical strength, but if physical strength is an important element of prestige - as magical power is in this world - then, of course, spouses who very strong would be very desirable.

This assumes some way to measure such strength by outsiders. Or knowledge of this heirarchy. 

On 10/16/2021 at 4:52 PM, Lord Varys said:

I mean, it is really kind of silly that Rand's and Egwene's romantic game is played in the language of 'You would like to be my Warder, wouldn't you?' - as if an Aes Sedai truly would need protection. As if in this world women would really *need* men to protect them.

Warders aren't just for "protection". And if you knew the history of the Bond, you'd see it quite differently

Spoiler

An Aes Sedai can quite literally drain the life from her Warder to keep herself alive. She can also draw strength from him in more measured doses to stave off fatigue from channeling, for instance. They can also compel the man to do anything they wanted.

 

In the past, Aes Sedai forcibly bonded any man they wanted. Per RJ's notes, some even made it habit to bond any man they thought had potential as a Warder, train them, and pass them on to new Sisters in need of a Warder.

The idea of formally asking and bonding someone consensually is a modern thing, about 400 years or so old, and coincides with steep declines in Aes Sedai political power and influence. Modern Aes Sedai consider it equivalent to rape to forcibly bond a man. Not so for most of history, though. 

On 10/16/2021 at 4:52 PM, Lord Varys said:

Jordan tries to give us strong women, but does so in terms that doesn't make much sense in the context of this world. Nynaeve and the women of the Two Rivers should openly rule the place. Then it would make sense that she presumes to go out there and demand that the boys come back. But since they do not rule openly but rather behind the scenes and through their men, it doesn't really make sense that they would take charge openly the way they do ... or try to do.

The Women's Circle isn't "behind the scenes". It is a formal body of power, technically equivalent to the Village Council, but functionally more powerful. 

12 hours ago, Gertrude said:

This is one of my gripes with this theme of the story. Jordan had a very exciting idea for a premise and did very little with it. The differences seem superficial and are not really explored. Yes, most people are not going to be channelers, so day to day the balance might not shift much from what we are used to - like in the two rivers. However, I'd have expected some larger societal effects.

But there are larger societal effects. We just delve into them more in the later books, especially the parts considered to be the "slog". That's where RJ goes much deeper into this in some of the various nations. We get much more detail about Andor, but also Ebou Dar.

12 hours ago, Gertrude said:

For instance, men manifest their ability much later than women, so perhaps we see that universally, older men are desirable for young women. Like men are prohibited from marrying until a certain age. (I mean we've got the silver fox Thom with all the young ladies, but that's just him). We see women thinking of men almost like children, and that would fit with a society that doesn't see them as responsible, dependable men until a much later age. It's almost there in the books, but I don't think it was intentional on Jordan's part, just accidental. And if it was intentional, he missed an opportunity to really explore that and draw our attention to it.

I think male sparkers are just too rare for this to happen. If a lot more men had the spark, this would definitely be a reasonable thing to expect.

12 hours ago, Gertrude said:

 Inheritance seems to be roughly egalitarian (we really only see it at the level of royalty), but it might be interesting to see places where the inheritance was matrilineal to reflect the uncertainty about males.

For all the nobility in Andor, it is indeed matrilineal, but not among commoners:

Quote

Naturally following the nature of the royal succession, titles also descended normally from mother to daughter, as did the largest part of property. Only when there was no daughter did a title descend to a son. A man who had thus inherited also left his main title and properties to his eldest daughter, though sons and other daughters could, of course, inherit smaller properties, and were nobility. Among the nobility, thus, most property and most land were in the hands of women.

Among commoners this rule did not hold. Inheritance was divided among sons and daughters, a daughter’s share, or part of it, often going with her when she married. This part was her property, not her husband’s, and it was her right to dispose of it as or leave it where she would, just as her husband could leave his property where he would. It was common in some areas for husbands to leave their property to their sons and wives to their daughters, though this was by no means a rule and was not followed in all circumstances.

 

12 hours ago, Gertrude said:

 

Have some woman talk about thinking she would inherit her mother's farm before being taken the the White Tower. As we've talked about before, the gender roles are fairly traditional, and I can see why that would be in places like Emond's Field, but in Caemlyn we have a queen, an Aes Sedai advisor and then the other positions seem to be filled by men. I'd expect to see that women are seen as capable advisors and experts in their field as often as men are and that there would be a more equal balance. While it's true that we don't see much of the power structure, it could have been made clear that her high-level advisors were equally divided by sex. 

I don't know about equally, but Morgases closest advisors were women, except for Gareth Bryne. Elaida, Dyelin and Ellorien.

In other lands, like Kandor, the rulers council of advisors has to be equally comprised of men and women by strong tradition. In Arad Doman, the ruler is elected by the Council of Merchants, which is almost all women, since most merchant houses are headed by women, as the Domani think women make better merchants. 

In Altara, a woman who kills a man is presumed more or less innocent unless proven guilty, and the culture is much more matriarchal.

12 hours ago, Gertrude said:

Small things like this really add depth to the worldbuilding, but the way Jordan does it often seems skin deep and thus not fully realized. In my opinion, anyway. This world has Queens, thus men and women are equal - done. (an exaggeration, but I think you get where I am coming from)

This is truly not the case. The later books definitely add a lot more color to this. I wouldn't call it particularly systematic. I find it weird that the gender balance shifts so much in different countries, or even with them, like in Altara. That seems more like RJ trying to set up all sorts of gender relationships.

But whatever you can say about that, you can't say it's left at "there are Queens". 

[Lord Varys]

9 hours ago, Gertrude said:

Agreed - and that's why the traditional gender roles don't really bother me in the Two Rivers context. They are isolated, haven't seen a channeler or felt the effects of a channeler in ages, so when you're living a rural life with lots of hard work and little technology, it seems more natural to revert back to 'traditional' gender roles. And yes, the height of the Age of Legends was very different, but that world shattered, so we can't compare the two that much.

But the timeline would be like that: gender equality in the Age of Legends -> some kind of matriarchal order/strengthening of the role of women in the post-Breaking world.

Why and how would things revert back to 'traditional' gender roles when the times of a real patriarchal society are (or should be) even further in the past than the Age of Legends?

Add to that that the Two Rivers are technically part of Andor which is one of the kingdoms were the roles of women are pretty strong this doesn't really add up all that well.

In this context, I'm also realizing that Jordan gives no explanation as to why society would devolve to this generic medieval fantasy world setting we are seeing. They had a very advanced society in the Age of Legends, and Breaking or no Breaking, the idea that vast destructions means folks all across the world will forget equality and democracy and instead unsiversally go with monarchy and aristocracy is pretty weird, too. It is also rather odd to assume that people would collectively favor the rule of the few over the many in a world where Darkfriends are a real and known danger and it should be rather easy for them to take over entire countries and deliver them to the Shadow if you have a small elite (nobles, a royal dynasty, etc.) run things. All you need is to convince a majority of the elite to join the Darkfriends. Instead, effective resistance to the Shadow could only work, especially during the Trolloc Wars, if a large group of people were to control the military and the other assets.

It is especially vexing that the world prior to the destruction caused by the Trolloc Wars was already a medieval fantasy world (Manetheren and the other early kingdoms seem to have had kings and queens). Back in those days there could have been democratic republics and the like easily enough. In fact, if I had been doing or commenting on the world-building I'd have entered the 'monarchistic idea' (or its final victory) with the rise of the Hawkwing character. He or she could have not just conquered all the lands but also destroyed all non-monarchistic forms of government, explaining why after his death the new states effectively all became monarchies.

[Lord Patrek]

Any work of fiction suffers from too much analysis. That's true of masterpieces and The Eye of the World is far from that.

I think you should quit now, or at worse by the end of the novel. Given your thoughts so far, you will find nothing enjoyable about the rest of the series.

Pissing on it after every few chapters like you're doing now, while at times entertaining, is a complete waste of time.

There are plenty of other SFF books/series out there that will undoubtedly scratch your itch.

[Corvinus85]

33 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

In this context, I'm also realizing that Jordan gives no explanation as to why society would devolve to this generic medieval fantasy world setting we are seeing. They had a very advanced society in the Age of Legends, and Breaking or no Breaking, the idea that vast destructions means folks all across the world will forget equality and democracy and instead unsiversally go with monarchy and aristocracy is pretty weird, too. It is also rather odd to assume that people would collectively favor the rule of the few over the many in a world where Darkfriends are a real and known danger and it should be rather easy for them to take over entire countries and deliver them to the Shadow if you have a small elite (nobles, a royal dynasty, etc.) run things. All you need is to convince a majority of the elite to join the Darkfriends. Instead, effective resistance to the Shadow could only work, especially during the Trolloc Wars, if a large group of people were to control the military and the other assets.

It is especially vexing that the world prior to the destruction caused by the Trolloc Wars was already a medieval fantasy world (Manetheren and the other early kingdoms seem to have had kings and queens). Back in those days there could have been democratic republics and the like easily enough. In fact, if I had been doing or commenting on the world-building I'd have entered the 'monarchistic idea' (or its final victory) with the rise of the Hawkwing character. He or she could have not just conquered all the lands but also destroyed all non-monarchistic forms of government, explaining why after his death the new states effectively all became monarchies.

Where in The Eye of the World does it say that democracy was the norm in the Age of Legends?

Assuming you've read it, what is your opinion of Joe Abercrombie's Shattered Sea trilogy, bearing in mind your comments above?

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Where in The Eye of the World does it say that democracy was the norm in the Age of Legends?

It doesn't say it in that book, but it appears to be the case in the Worldbook's account of the Age of Legends which I actually read rather than listening to ;-). In any case, it is quite clear that (feudal) monarchy wasn't the world government of the Age of Legends, and there is no explanation given why folks would develop either monarchy or aristocracy in the centuries thereafter.

3 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Assuming you've read it, what is your opinion of Joe Abercrombie's Shattered Sea trilogy, bearing in mind your comments above?

I didn't read that.

[Lord Varys]

20 minutes ago, Lord Patrek said:

Any work of fiction suffers from too much analysis. That's true of masterpieces and The Eye of the World is far from that.

I think you should quit now, or at worse by the end of the novel. Given your thoughts so far, you will find nothing enjoyable about the rest of the series.

Pissing on it after every few chapters like you're doing now, while at times entertaining, is a complete waste of time.

There are plenty of other SFF books/series out there that will undoubtedly scratch your itch.

Well, I said that I might drop things again. And it is not that I'm doing much analysis here. I just listen to the stuff and use my brain while doing it.

And I'm pretty close to it already, considering the shitty beginning of 'The Great Hunt'. I mean, seriously, an entire chapter about Rand trying to flee Fal Dara after he had days to do just that? Egwene stupidly suggesting he should hide in the dungeon of all places? Who is writing this stuff and in want mental state was the author in when he came up with that idea? How stupid is Rand to even believe he could flee the Amyrlin and more than a dozen Aes Sedai and their Warders? Shouldn't he know that they can track him down regardless whether he runs away today, yesterday, or a week ago?

And then Padan Fain mentions Mordeth by name TWO TIMES and those MORONS do not have THE GRACE to even ACKNOWDLEDGE that he did just that!!!!???

What the fuck is that? Has somebody lobotomized them while I wasn't looking?

What comes next? Some guy telling them he is a Forsaken and they are casually ignoring that? Rand telling everybody he is the Dragon Reborn and people not knowing that two pages later?

In any realistic setting written by an author who doesn't dumb down his characters when the plot requires it Padan Fain would have been killed at the end of the first book. Or they would at least have tried to kill him.

Not to mention that the Padan Fain character doesn't make much sense, anyway. Why would Ishamael only create one such searcher? Why would this guy literally take years between his visits to the Two Rivers when he was already knowing that the people he was looking for were there? What the hell does Padan Fain do in the meantime, anyway?

And the way for Rand to meet Fain in the dungeons would have been him accidentally getting down there - you know, like Arya overheard Varys and Illyrio in AGoT accidentally. It is not that hard to come up with a believable pretext for this kind of plot.

Back to the women issue:

I stand by my reasoning that we basically have only one (or perhaps two or three) female character(s) in this series. The reasoning here is that we have the same kind of female behavior with basically a lot or all the female side characters. Namely the type of the 'servant woman' or wife actually ruling her man/boss in private. We have that with Egwene's mother, the wives of various innkeeps (or the female cooks, managers, etc. supposedly working for them), even the woman running things at Fal Dara. This not just annoyingly unimaginative, it also reinforces the point I've been making a couple of times that women do rule things behind the scenes rather than openly. They do it by controlling men in the domestic sphere.

This is not the way to depict a world where women are supposed to be more prominent. It is exactly the kind of way you portray women in a patriarchal world, because there the only way for a woman to have power is through men. In a world with (more) gender equality there would be female innkeeps, men doing domestic work for female rulers, etc.

[Corvinus85]

35 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It doesn't say it in that book, but it appears to be the case in the Worldbook's account of the Age of Legends which I actually read rather than listening to ;-). In any case, it is quite clear that (feudal) monarchy wasn't the world government of the Age of Legends, and there is no explanation given why folks would develop either monarchy or aristocracy in the centuries thereafter.

OK, I'm not going to spoil Joe's books in case you ever do. But going back to WoT, I find your criticism lacking imagination. Just because a world experiences democracy and egalitarianism doesn't mean it will always stay the same. How many times have democracies and republics collapsed in human history to be replaced by authoritarian regimes? And the conflicts that preceded such collapses pale in comparison to what RJ crafted for his world - a literal apocalypse with huge geographical changes. Virtually every fictional story that deals with apocalypses and dystopian futures shows degraded societies where the rule of the few has become common place.

[David Selig]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

But the timeline would be like that: gender equality in the Age of Legends -> some kind of matriarchal order/strengthening of the role of women in the post-Breaking world.

Why and how would things revert back to 'traditional' gender roles when the times of a real patriarchal society are (or should be) even further in the past than the Age of Legends?

Because they lost their advanced technologies and ended up with a technological level similar to the 17th century or so.  So the society norms reverted in a similar way too. It's a classic post-apocalyptic trope. Whether it's plausible is another question.

Without the Aes Sedai influence the world post-Breaking would have been patriarchal. Thanks to them it's somewhat gender-equal, at least that was Jordan's intention.

But you are correct he didn't do a great job with presenting this convincingly, especially in the early books, where the societies we see are too similar in most ways to historical patriarchal ones. This improves later on, but some issues never go away. Like the ridiculous prudishness of many female characters, even ones who are queens and single. Or small details like the fact that only men drink alcohol or smoke tabac.

[Lord Varys]

20 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

OK, I'm not going to spoil Joe's books in case you ever do. But going back to WoT, I find your criticism lacking imagination. Just because a world experiences democracy and egalitarianism doesn't mean it will always stay the same. How many times have democracies and republics collapsed in human history to be replaced by authoritarian regimes? And the conflicts that preceded such collapses pale in comparison to what RJ crafted for his world - a literal apocalypse with huge geographical changes. Virtually every fictional story that deals with apocalypses and dystopian futures shows degraded societies where the rule of the few has become common place.

The impression I have is that the Age of Legends was a working world government utopian society. It is not very believable that a post-apocalyptic society reverts to a more or less universal generic medieval fantasy world setting. If there was an explanation for that - fine. Even more so if it makes sense. But there isn't.

The point here is that I don't think we have any good reason to assume that generic fantasy kingdoms would be the kind of societies the survivors of the Breaking would create. But Jordan has this kind of thing happen pretty much everywhere outside the Aiel Waste - in Seanchan, in Shara, and in the lands the bulk of the story takes place in.

In our world, monarchies are still a thing, so the idea that we more states than which are currently monarchies are likely to try this kind of thing again is not unlikely. But societies that are dead and gone like, say, Hellenistic monarchies with kings and queens pretending to be deities are far less likely to happen.

Why the immediate survivors of the Breaking would think feudal monarchies were the thing to go with is actually a rather interesting question. Even more so, in light of the fact that, apparently, they still had more knowledge from the Age of Legends in the age prior to the Trolloc Wars than they had afterwards. They would have tried to recreate or rebuild the society they had lost, not go with generic fantasy monarchies. Even more so in light of the fact that I laid out that with the Darkfriends out there creating societies with small elites would pretty much invite defeat at the hands of the Dark One.

[Corvinus85]

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The impression I have is that the Age of Legends was a working world government utopian society. It is not very believable that a post-apocalyptic society reverts to a more or less universal generic medieval fantasy world setting. If there was an explanation for that - fine. Even more so if it makes sense. But there isn't.

The point here is that I don't think we have any good reason to assume that generic fantasy kingdoms would be the kind of societies the survivors of the Breaking would create. But Jordan has this kind of thing happen pretty much everywhere outside the Aiel Waste - in Seanchan, in Shara, and in the lands the bulk of the story takes place in.

Why the immediate survivors of the Breaking would think feudal monarchies were the thing to go with is actually a rather interesting question. Even more so, in light of the fact that, apparently, they still had more knowledge from the Age of Legends in the age prior to the Trolloc Wars than they had afterwards. They would have tried to recreate or rebuild the society they had lost, not go with generic fantasy monarchies. Even more so in light of the fact that I laid out that with the Darkfriends out there creating societies with small elites would pretty much invite defeat at the hands of the Dark One.

There were several governments in the AoL that cooperated. That seems to have broken down though during the War of the Power, when the Aes Sedai practically took over, at least in managing the war. Half of them went insane and destroyed the world. Continents shifted, land masses disappeared under the seas, while other large bodies of water dried out creating new land masses. Humans reverted to tribal societies - really not that hard to believe. The Time of Madness, as it's called, lasted for several centuries. Out of the ashes, people in the Westlands coalesced into nations ruled by monarchs, but I don't believe there's a clear evidence of feudal societies. That is definitely post Hawkwing. In the Seanchan continent, it appears that Aes Sedai took over and installed themselves as rulers of rival factions. I'm not entirely sure what kind of government the Sharan have, other than it's some sort of monarchy.

19 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

In our world, monarchies are still a thing, so the idea that we more states than which are currently monarchies are likely to try this kind of thing again is not unlikely. But societies that are dead and gone like, say, Hellenistic monarchies with kings and queens pretending to be deities are far less likely to happen.

Once again, this is a failure of your imagination.  I mean, just look at the world now.

[fionwe1987]

It's not hard to believe at all that an abrupt destruction of communication and transportation infrastructure, combined with a massive resource crunch and mass destruction all around completely dissolved democracy.

We see in the Shadow Rising, when Rand goes through the crystal columns (I'm going to stop putting things in spoiler tags. If the books can be criticized for not explaining every detail of a 3500 year old societal collapse in the first of 14 books, an expectation of not being spoiled is unreasonable), that society had collapsed massively in a few generations. There were roving bands of looters, and it isn't particularly hard to see how strongman/strongwoman types with a bit of a following started gaining authority in exchange for some stability and protection. 

Is that the only way such an advanced civilization can collapse? No. But it's not ridiculous either. 

And the WoT kingdoms are not very feudal in their structure. Several monarchies are beholden to elected councils, or oligarchic councils comprised of trade guild or merchant house leaders, or advisory councils that have commoners as members. 

The rule of law is also much more widely respected, even by many absolute monarchs, especially in those nations where the White Tower holds greater sway. And this includes Hawkwing, who standardized law and completely neutralized the nobility by placing Aes Sedai in charge across his nation, till all that went to hell because of Ishamael.

If your argument is, hey the history of the world allows for a different setting, and I wish RJ had taken that route, fair enough.

But in a discussion board dedicated to a series that has, as part of it's history, multiple thousands of years of feudal society that has had zero progress, it is a bit rich to claim that WoT is somehow a particularly egregious example of a series that doesn't have a government structure that makes any sense. 

 

[Poobah]

The breaking was a centuries long apocalyptic event in which most of the peoples of the world were reduced to refugees fleeing for their lives and desperately trying to cling to life, which was preceded by decades of social breakdown after the bore was drilled and which eventually erupted into a lengthy global war which was more-or-less lost by the Aes Sedai lead global government by the time Lews Therin made his last desperate play to seal the Dark One. It's not like it was an event that just happened overnight and killed a bunch of people but left the survivors as as unchanged upright citizens of the Age of Legends at its height.

I feel like you must have a very optimistic view of human nature if you really think that people wouldn't resort to banditry, praying on other groups of refugees, and generally being huge selfish assholes to survive, and that that kinda situation isn't the kind that naturally leads to despotism. And yeah as others have said it's kinda a staple of post-apocalyptic fiction, and most of those apocalypses are overnight global nuclear wars which would leave plenty of people still alive who remember democracy and whatnot, do those settings where you get rule by strongmen and bandit kings or ex military militias and whatnot also draw your ire for not coalescing swiftly back into more enlightened and egalitarian societies?

Finally I don't think they could rebuild the society they had even if they wanted to. The Age of Legends was a utopia built upon magitech and it's repeated over and over that all the great wonders of the AoL were made by men and women working together and all of their infrastructure was completely annihilated. Almost all of their technology they once had stopped working - they were reduced to fleeing on foot and carrying their stuff in carts and wagons when they once had functional flying cars for instance. Post breaking if they wanted that food that was previously grown by magical constructs and (magical?) singing they'd now need actual farmers to do the hard work of farming it, if they could find seeds - you might notice that the wetlands doesn't have corn (or cotton or coffee for that matter).

[Gertrude]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But the timeline would be like that: gender equality in the Age of Legends -> some kind of matriarchal order/strengthening of the role of women in the post-Breaking world.

Why and how would things revert back to 'traditional' gender roles when the times of a real patriarchal society are (or should be) even further in the past than the Age of Legends?

Add to that that the Two Rivers are technically part of Andor which is one of the kingdoms were the roles of women are pretty strong this doesn't really add up all that well.

Do we really know much about the world during the breaking? I don't think there was a centralized power base until later. During this time, people would be wary of anyone using the power (thus why the Oaths were adopted). If you don't have a central government and you're not in regular contact with power wielders, I can see how things would fall back into something closer to traditional gender roles. When you're struggling to survive, you don't have access to tech or the equivalent, yes, child-rearing is going to fall back onto the women. Men can't breastfeed infants, one of the parents has to oversee small children, and that's easiest in a home while the more intensive and dangerous labor falls to the men. There is a reason these gender roles developed after all. It doesn't fall into a completely patriarchal society - it is still much more egalitarian when compared to our world of a similar tech level (Renaisance-ish). I see it as plausible.

And the Two Rivers is only part of Andor in name only. They are essentially their own little corner of the world. That has it's own set of questions (Two Rivers tabac is widely known so you'd think at least there would be more contact with outsiders due to to merchants and transport workers, but that's a whole different issue)

 

The question about falling right back into monarchy is an interesting one. That is something that could have been explored more and, as you said, the Trolloc wars could have explained the rise of strong military leaders assuming the roles of kings. Again, an example of wasted potential. These are the types of things that I think are more interesting to explore in worldbuilding rather than the intricate language of marriage knives for Ebou Dari women.

[fionwe1987]

13 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

The question about falling right back into monarchy is an interesting one. That is something that could have been explored more and, as you said, the Trolloc wars could have explained the rise of strong military leaders assuming the roles of kings. Again, an example of wasted potential. These are the types of things that I think are more interesting to explore in worldbuilding rather than the intricate language of marriage knives for Ebou Dari women.

Hah, something we completely agree on, when it comes to WoT.

I feel RJ gave his world a great deal of breadth. It feels to me like he did a lot of thinking on these questions we're asking. But rather than pursue a few avenues of "what if x changed, how does that affect y" in depth, he instead just did a lot of superficial things and stuck them into different cultures, either historical or just in a different location.

That has the benefit of making the world feel a little more culturally diverse (even when the cultural remixing doesn't really work well), which is good, because way too many epic fantasies have the "other" cultures all be very ill thought out and homogenous. 

The negative is, the books fall short of saying something profound about a lot of questions they raise. 

I credit Jordan for trying, at least, though. The fact that even 30 years after, we don't have all that much in the way of epic fantasy that tries to delve into these questions, or even attempts to look past patriarchal societies as the norm, is probably one of my great disappointments with the genre.

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

There were several governments in the AoL that cooperated. That seems to have broken down though during the War of the Power, when the Aes Sedai practically took over, at least in managing the war.

It has been some time but I seem to recall that there was some kind of world government with the Aes Sedai prior to the war being the servants of all, i.e. not exactly a part of it all. Of course that changed during the war.

4 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Half of them went insane and destroyed the world. Continents shifted, land masses disappeared under the seas, while other large bodies of water dried out creating new land masses. Humans reverted to tribal societies - really not that hard to believe. The Time of Madness, as it's called, lasted for several centuries.

I get all that ... but I don't see why all of the nations that developed out of that mess would be or had to be monarchies? Tribal societies can be pretty equal/democratic, right? Hierarchies can be flat, even kings can be elected.

4 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Out of the ashes, people in the Westlands coalesced into nations ruled by monarchs, but I don't believe there's a clear evidence of feudal societies. That is definitely post Hawkwing. In the Seanchan continent, it appears that Aes Sedai took over and installed themselves as rulers of rival factions. I'm not entirely sure what kind of government the Sharan have, other than it's some sort of monarchy.

I got the impression the Seanchan Aes Sedai were also monarchs, considering that the entire hierarchical society developed there. Hawkwing's people went native, so what we know as the Seanchan state seems to have been just an over-the-top version of what was normal prior to their arrival.

4 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Once again, this is a failure of your imagination.  I mean, just look at the world now.

There are concepts that are pretty dead these days. We are not likely to see people reviving ritualistic state cults where the rulers embody certain deities - or really are considered to be identical with those deities. If societies were to collapse we might develop new weird notions, but chances are not that great that we recreate things from the distant past folks living in this world would have forgotten long ago.

4 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

It's not hard to believe at all that an abrupt destruction of communication and transportation infrastructure, combined with a massive resource crunch and mass destruction all around completely dissolved democracy.

It would also destroy the idea that monarchy is a great form of government. And there is no reason why the small groups rebuilding society would go with that form of government. Especially not so many groups.

4 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

And the WoT kingdoms are not very feudal in their structure. Several monarchies are beholden to elected councils, or oligarchic councils comprised of trade guild or merchant house leaders, or advisory councils that have commoners as members. 

Yes, okay, but they all do have lords. That usually means they lord of something, i.e. a something that would qualify as a feudal estate.

4 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

If your argument is, hey the history of the world allows for a different setting, and I wish RJ had taken that route, fair enough.

I'm giving my subjective view of things, so, yes, I think he should have gone with a more complex, less generic fantasy world setting. Especially in light of the history of his world. A world with great magical technology and a quasi-SF setting in the past should not devolve to this level of medievalism. If you want that setting, don't give it this backstory.

4 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

But in a discussion board dedicated to a series that has, as part of it's history, multiple thousands of years of feudal society that has had zero progress, it is a bit rich to claim that WoT is somehow a particularly egregious example of a series that doesn't have a government structure that makes any sense.

Well, Martinworld's historical background is at least as shitty as Jordan's in certain respects. Those feudal morons wouldn't live through one three-year-winter, much less winters that last for five years.

Unexplained cultural advancement isn't so much an issue, because you don't really need an explanation as to why people didn't discover things they didn't discover. Or do you complain why the Greeks didn't discover Einsteinian relativity when they should or could have done so?

3 hours ago, Gertrude said:

Do we really know much about the world during the breaking? I don't think there was a centralized power base until later. During this time, people would be wary of anyone using the power (thus why the Oaths were adopted). If you don't have a central government and you're not in regular contact with power wielders, I can see how things would fall back into something closer to traditional gender roles. When you're struggling to survive, you don't have access to tech or the equivalent, yes, child-rearing is going to fall back onto the women. Men can't breastfeed infants, one of the parents has to oversee small children, and that's easiest in a home while the more intensive and dangerous labor falls to the men. There is a reason these gender roles developed after all. It doesn't fall into a completely patriarchal society - it is still much more egalitarian when compared to our world of a similar tech level (Renaisance-ish). I see it as plausible.

I could see such things happening in the times of chaos after the Breaking, but we do have an entire millennium of stability up to the Trollocs Wars, no, during which time the Aes Sedai seem to have had even more influence on things then they do have in the post-Hawkwing era.

The fact that the Aes Sedai women were running the show would become part of the collective consciousness, especially back when they were more numerous.

3 hours ago, Gertrude said:

And the Two Rivers is only part of Andor in name only. They are essentially their own little corner of the world. That has it's own set of questions (Two Rivers tabac is widely known so you'd think at least there would be more contact with outsiders due to to merchants and transport workers, but that's a whole different issue)

But that's a more recent development, no? Something that happened in the last 100-200 years. When they are in Caemlyn in the first book it is talked about when the last Andorian officials were in the Two Rivers, and it wasn't nearly a 1,000 years ago.

3 hours ago, Gertrude said:

The question about falling right back into monarchy is an interesting one. That is something that could have been explored more and, as you said, the Trolloc wars could have explained the rise of strong military leaders assuming the roles of kings. Again, an example of wasted potential. These are the types of things that I think are more interesting to explore in worldbuilding rather than the intricate language of marriage knives for Ebou Dari women.

I'd have gone with the era between the Breaking and the Trolloc Wars being kind of like our world is right now - no longer utopia, but lots of technology, the Aes Sedai running some kind of UN-like organization from Tar Valon, etc., with things deteriorating further in the next era, and the whole medieval kingdoms thing only forming after the Hundred Years' War.

[fionwe1987]

38 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I get all that ... but I don't see why all of the nations that developed out of that mess would be or had to be monarchies? Tribal societies can be pretty equal/democratic, right? Hierarchies can be flat, even kings can be elected.

And why are we assuming this wasn't the case? We know of modern governments, like Arad Doman, where the monarch is elected, by the leaders of the Merchant Guilds, who are mostly women. An expansive democracy with a broad right to vote? No. But hardly an absolute monarchy.

In Tarabon the hereditary king (initial, ruler of either gender) was balanced by the Panarch (initially, the opposite gender of the ruler, now only female), who was elected by an Assemblage of nobles, that initially also had guild members. The Panarch and the King have co-equal status and power. 

Given all that, why are we assuming the Covenant of Ten Nations consisted of absolute hereditary monarchies only?

38 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I got the impression the Seanchan Aes Sedai were also monarchs, considering that the entire hierarchical society developed there. Hawkwing's people went native, so what we know as the Seanchan state seems to have been just an over-the-top version of what was normal prior to their arrival.

This isn't true. The Seanchan state definitely mingled with native traditions and customs, but they brought with them Hawkwing's advanced military, legal systems and biases, as well as his thirst for conquest.

The Aes Sedai had factions and ruled different parts of the continent, but I have no particular evidence they ruled as monarchs, or only as monarchs. It's an enormous continent. 

38 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

There are concepts that are pretty dead these days. We are not likely to see people reviving ritualistic state cults where the rulers embody certain deities - or really are considered to be identical with those deities. If societies were to collapse we might develop new weird notions, but chances are not that great that we recreate things from the distant past folks living in this world would have forgotten long ago.

Ahem. Been on Facebook, lately? 

38 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It would also destroy the idea that monarchy is a great form of government. And there is no reason why the small groups rebuilding society would go with that form of government. Especially not so many groups.

I don't think anything but stories of kings and queens survived to the Age of Legends. The books say even war was a half-forgotten concept.

I don't think the post-Breaking nations that were forming picked up monarchy as some kind of considered decision by the populace. Rather, I imagine those who accumulated power took on titles and powers based on these songs/legends. From what we see of several monarchies even in the current day in the series, though, some of them at least kept concepts like the rule of law alive to a much larger degree, and also some amount of separation of powers, in some locations, at least. 

And of course, all groups didn't pick monarchy. The Aiel didn't. The Sea Folk didn't. We have no particular information that the Seanchan continent did, either. 

38 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Yes, okay, but they all do have lords. That usually means they lord of something, i.e. a something that would qualify as a feudal estate.

But the level of power feudal lord's wield over the citizens is very variable. They have some power, we know, but several lands with a separate justice system, for instance, to which nobles are subject, in some nations. Cairhein and Tear seem to hew closest to a proper feudal structure, though without a monarch at the top, in Tear.

38 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm giving my subjective view of things, so, yes, I think he should have gone with a more complex, less generic fantasy world setting. Especially in light of the history of his world. A world with great magical technology and a quasi-SF setting in the past should not devolve to this level of medievalism. If you want that setting, don't give it this backstory.

Should not is where you're wrong. There's no rule against it. It's a perfectly reasonable place to devolve to, just not the most exciting. 

38 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Unexplained cultural advancement isn't so much an issue, because you don't really need an explanation as to why people didn't discover things they didn't discover. Or do you complain why the Greeks didn't discover Einsteinian relativity when they should or could have done so?

Of course I do. Exactly how is a world locked in technological limbo for 8000 years? That's just completely unrealistic.

38 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I'd have gone with the era between the Breaking and the Trolloc Wars being kind of like our world is right now - no longer utopia, but lots of technology, the Aes Sedai running some kind of UN-like organization from Tar Valon, etc., with things deteriorating further in the next era, and the whole medieval kingdoms thing only forming after the Hundred Years' War.

You kind of got just that. You got Tar Valon being the centre for channelers, and many Aes Sedai queens, including one who created a UN like world government. Technologies was, in fact, much more advanced than at the time of the books, and Aes Sedai were still not so conservative as to not experiment with the One Power. 

[Lord Varys]

And the dumbness continues:

Moiraine and Siun finally meet and talk behind closed doors. But Moiraine doesn't mention that the fucking Forsaken are on the loose and she and the gang encountered Balthamel and Aginor, with Rand killing the latter. How does it make sense that she doesn't tell her that? I mean, seriously, if they are free again, the others are likely free as well. They could attack them any minute, they could blow up Tar Valon, they could do pretty much anything the Forsaken are capable of. Also, Moiraine knows about Rand's encounter with Ba'alzamon, his belief that he killed the guy and I assume she has concluded that he is or was Ishamael. That's also a rather crucial tidbit of information, no?

I mean, what is this thing? Are those characters caring about what's going on in their world, or not? One would also expect that the Eye of the World being gone and the saidin there being used by Rand to, you know, crush an entire army and (seemingly) kill two Forsaken might also be a noteworthy event ... even more so since the people of Fal Dara would most definitely talk about what they saw on the battlefield. So far this entire crucial plotline from the finale of the last book is completely absent from 'The Great Hunt'. And I remember that I'm as pissed this time as I was the last time. That's just silly writing.

Oh, and the weirdo Darkfriend in the dungeons is, of course, of no concern to a dozen of Aes Sedai in the castle. They do care about pretty much any gossip they could think of - like who meets with the Amyrlin for how long - but they do not give a fig about a weirdo Darkfriend Moiraine had thrown into the dungeon. Especially not since, you know, he might know interesting or important things.

And then - folks allegedly forgot/never knew that Siuan and Moiraine were friends as novices/Accepted? With Elaida being essentially there during 'The New Spring'? What kind of nonsense is this? If the plan hinges on the Aes Sedai essentially not knowing how close these two are, then the entire backstory novel should have been plotted completely differently - like, say, them truly having a secret friendship, something that developed without anyone knowing about it, and they deciding to keep it a secret and pretend they are not friends/loathe each other as long as they were together at the White Tower.

And then there is their private talk. How difficult would it have been if they had made a show out of Siuan semi-publicly punishing/humiliating (perhaps even including some childish spanking ;-)?) Moiraine to send the message that they weren't in cahoots together? Instead, Jordan first has them being clever, apparently, by talking behind closed doors with the One Power stopping potential listeners ... only to reveal in the end that the whole thing was dumb because if anyone tried to listen they would now know the two of them had something to hide. If they were actually smart plotters - which they should be, considering who and what Siuan is at this point in the story - then they wouldn't have been that dumb.

For instance, they could have played a show behind closed doors while using sign language, a code, or simple writing to exchange information.

[fionwe1987]

16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And the dumbness continues:

Moiraine and Siun finally meet and talk behind closed doors. But Moiraine doesn't mention that the fucking Forsaken are on the loose and she and the gang encountered Balthamel and Aginor, with Rand killing the latter. How does it make sense that she doesn't tell her that? I mean, seriously, if they are free again, the others are likely free as well. They could attack them any minute, they could blow up Tar Valon, they could do pretty much anything the Forsaken are capable of. Also, Moiraine knows about Rand's encounter with Ba'alzamon, his belief that he killed the guy and I assume she has concluded that he is or was Ishamael. That's also a rather crucial tidbit of information, no?

I mean, what is this thing? Are those characters caring about what's going on in their world, or not? One would also expect that the Eye of the World being gone and the saidin there being used by Rand to, you know, crush an entire army and (seemingly) kill two Forsaken might also be a noteworthy event ... even more so since the people of Fal Dara would most definitely talk about what they saw on the battlefield. So far this entire crucial plotline from the finale of the last book is completely absent from 'The Great Hunt'. And I remember that I'm as pissed this time as I was the last time. That's just silly writing.

Oh, and the weirdo Darkfriend in the dungeons is, of course, of no concern to a dozen of Aes Sedai in the castle. They do care about pretty much any gossip they could think of - like who meets with the Amyrlin for how long - but they do not give a fig about a weirdo Darkfriend Moiraine had thrown into the dungeon. Especially not since, you know, he might know interesting or important things.

And then - folks allegedly forgot/never knew that Siuan and Moiraine were friends as novices/Accepted? With Elaida being essentially there during 'The New Spring'? What kind of nonsense is this? If the plan hinges on the Aes Sedai essentially not knowing how close these two are, then the entire backstory novel should have been plotted completely differently - like, say, them truly having a secret friendship, something that developed without anyone knowing about it, and they deciding to keep it a secret and pretend they are not friends/loathe each other as long as they were together at the White Tower.

And then there is their private talk. How difficult would it have been if they had made a show out of Siuan semi-publicly punishing/humiliating (perhaps even including some childish spanking ;-)?) Moiraine to send the message that they weren't in cahoots together? Instead, Jordan first has them being clever, apparently, by talking behind closed doors with the One Power stopping potential listeners ... only to reveal in the end that the whole thing was dumb because if anyone tried to listen they would now know the two of them had something to hide. If they were actually smart plotters - which they should be, considering who and what Siuan is at this point in the story - then they wouldn't have been that dumb.

For instance, they could have played a show behind closed doors while using sign language, a code, or simple writing to exchange information.

Why are you under the impression Moiraine didn't tell Siuan about the Forsaken? Firstly, you don't know what written communication Moiraine sent to Siuan that triggered her trip to Fal Dara. There's every chance part of the information there was "some Forsaken are loose, move your ass"!

You don't see their every word to each other, either, only their initial meeting. But Siuan later definitely acts on the knowledge that the Forsaken are free. You're not just nit picking, now you're simply making up stuff. 

And Darkfriends aren't exactly something Aes Sedai will go and want to visit. Why would they? He's a captive, not roaming free. And as far as they know, there's nothing special about him.

I definitely think that news of the male channeler in the Battle at Tarwin's Gap not being commented on is a miss. It makes no sense the Red Ajah's eyes and ears didn't pick this up.

As for Moiraine and Siuan being friends, plenty of Novices and Accepted who were close friends go their separate ways as Aes Sedai. Moiraine and Siuan have been doing that for the past few years. That's why they're fairly confident most sisters won't suspect they're closely working together. They know the Black keeps tabs on the Amyrlin so they've been keeping their continued association as low down as possible. Why's this confusing? 

And if they silently sat in a room writing messages, they'd be caught as much as someone testing against the ward.

And yes, anyone finding the ward would wonder what Siuan was saying to Moiraine. But Siuan would detect it, so she'd know someone tried, which she wouldn't if she hadn't woven a ward. It's a tradeoff, but worth it. 

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Why are you under the impression Moiraine didn't tell Siuan about the Forsaken? Firstly, you don't know what written communication Moiraine sent to Siuan that triggered her trip to Fal Dara. There's every chance part of the information there was "some Forsaken are loose, move your ass"!

It is explicitly mentioned that Moiraine's last message to Siuan reached the latter from Caemlyn, claiming she and the boys would go to Fal Dara. Back then, Moiraine had no clue that they would encounter Forsaken there. She knew that the Dark One wanted to destroy/mess with the Eye of the World, but that was all. If she had known that Ishamael or other Forsaken would be there, she would have been mad to go there without back up, no?

Siuan races to Fal Dara and frets about that for an entire paragraph, complaining that Moiraine failed to get the boy to Tar Valon. No indication she went there to possibly help stop some Forsaken.

Also, if she had had that knowledge, it should have overshadowed everything else. All this need to hide the truth about Rand, etc. would not matter if they all knew that the seals had weakened to the point that the Forsaken were back.

2 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

You don't see their every word to each other, either, only their initial meeting. But Siuan later definitely acts on the knowledge that the Forsaken are free. You're not just nit picking, now you're simply making up stuff. 

I daresay important information of the kind we talk about is important enough for the first meeting.

It seems that Moiraine would want to keep certain things that Rand did a secret from Siuan - she indicates that she is keeping some things from her, and Siuan accepts that. But that couldn't possibly include information about the Forsaken being loose. And, in the end, it should be impossible for her to keep Rand destroying the Shadowspawn army a secret because that this happened - even if the people witnessing it didn't see/recognize Rand - cannot possibly be a secret.

Which is why this plot point being dropped so far is just very bad writing. One way to explain away - or them trying explain away this whole thing - would be to frame it as a miracle with the Light of the Wheel or the Creator himself intervening. If Moiraine had credibly reported that they and the boys were at a completely different place - the Eye of the World, far away from the battle - then Rand being there and doing stuff wouldn't make much sense since at that time the channelers cannot teleport.

In fact, Siuan and Moiraine could have distracted the Red Ajah by spreading the story that there must be some other male channeler completely unconnected to the boys in Moiraine's company somewhere out there.

2 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

And Darkfriends aren't exactly something Aes Sedai will go and want to visit. Why would they? He's a captive, not roaming free. And as far as they know, there's nothing special about him.

The way they sniff out things the Red Ajah and others should be interested in that guy. He is clearly connected to the important boys, he was in the Two Rivers, he followed them all the way, etc. - and all that was discussed out in the open when Moiraine and the gang first confronted Padan Fain in Fal Dara. The various Aes Sedai would also talk to and question the Lord of Fal Dara, his sister, and other people in the castle.

2 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

As for Moiraine and Siuan being friends, plenty of Novices and Accepted who were close friends go their separate ways as Aes Sedai. Moiraine and Siuan have been doing that for the past few years. That's why they're fairly confident most sisters won't suspect they're closely working together. They know the Black keeps tabs on the Amyrlin so they've been keeping their continued association as low down as possible. Why's this confusing? 

Because it is actually presented in a manner as if people were no longer remembering/hopefully wouldn't remember that they were friends in their youth. Which just doesn't make any sense in light of 'A New Spring' nor in general considering that their youth wasn't that long ago and quite a few weirdo things happened just when they took their vows, etc.

2 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

And if they silently sat in a room writing messages, they'd be caught as much as someone testing against the ward.

The idea wasn't that they would write messages silently but rather while they giving potential listeners a good show. In fact, the way to play it would have been to Siuan starting dressing down Moiraine while Lianne was still in the room, and then continuing the charade while they were alone for the entertainment of the gang outside.

2 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

And yes, anyone finding the ward would wonder what Siuan was saying to Moiraine. But Siuan would detect it, so she'd know someone tried, which she wouldn't if she hadn't woven a ward. It's a tradeoff, but worth it. 

The impression they give at the end of the conversation is that they wouldn't know that somebody tried to listen.

[fionwe1987]

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is explicitly mentioned that Moiraine's last message to Siuan reached the latter from Caemlyn, claiming she and the boys would go to Fal Dara. Back then, Moiraine had no clue that they would encounter Forsaken there. She knew that the Dark One wanted to destroy/mess with the Eye of the World, but that was all. If she had known that Ishamael or other Forsaken would be there, she would have been mad to go there without back up, no?

Siuan races to Fal Dara and frets about that for an entire paragraph, complaining that Moiraine failed to get the boy to Tar Valon. No indication she went there to possibly help stop some Forsaken.

Also, if she had had that knowledge, it should have overshadowed everything else. All this need to hide the truth about Rand, etc. would not matter if they all knew that the seals had weakened to the point that the Forsaken were back.

I'd forgotten about the last missive being from Caemlyn. Good point on that.

That said, they end the scene explicitly saying they'll meet again the next day to talk. And in a subsequent chapter, when they discuss the Forsaken with Verin, we're seeing things from Moiraine's PoV and this comes up:

Quote

“ ‘Daughter of the Night, she walks again.’ That can only mean Lanfear is loose again. Or someone wants us to think she is.”

“That would be something to worry us, Daughter,” the Amyrlin Seat said, “if it were true. But the Forsaken are still bound.” She glanced at Moiraine, looking troubled for an instant before she schooled her features. “Even if the seals are weakening, the Forsaken are still bound.”

Siuan cannot lie, and I always took this to mean she's referring to the remaining Forsaken. Moiraine's thoughts on Lanfear that follow this don't make sense otherwise:

Quote

“With all the false Dragons that are appearing, it is not surprising someone would try to bring Lanfear into it.” Moiraine’s voice was as unruffled as her face, but inside herself she roiled. Only one thing for certain was known of Lanfear beside the name: before she went over to the Shadow, before Lews Therin Telamon met Ilyena, Lanfear had been his lover. A complication we do not need.

The Amyrlin Seat frowned as if she had had the same thought, but Verin nodded as if it were all just words.

This isn't a complication Moiraine would think Siuan is worried about if she doesn't know a few Forsaken had been freed.

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I daresay important information of the kind we talk about is important enough for the first meeting.

But the first meeting wasn't a full debrief. Even more important than the Forsaken being free is Ba'alzamon, or someone claiming to be him, touching the dreams of the three boys. Or the Eye of the World being used up. I'd imagine a case can be made for the Green Man being dead to be up there too.

The first meeting wasn't a full debrief. It's pretty clear that did happen, though.

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It seems that Moiraine would want to keep certain things that Rand did a secret from Siuan - she indicates that she is keeping some things from her, and Siuan accepts that. But that couldn't possibly include information about the Forsaken being loose. And, in the end, it should be impossible for her to keep Rand destroying the Shadowspawn army a secret because that this happened - even if the people witnessing it didn't see/recognize Rand - cannot possibly be a secret.

The Forsaken weren't kept a secret. We know this for certain from later books. 

As for the male channeler attacking the Shadowspawn, that does seem to be conveniently forgotten, I agree. I don't see any signs of Moiraine trying to suppress it. Its just axed out of the memories of the Shienarans, it looks like. So the criticism on that is correct. 

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Which is why this plot point being dropped so far is just very bad writing. One way to explain away - or them trying explain away this whole thing - would be to frame it as a miracle with the Light of the Wheel or the Creator himself intervening. If Moiraine had credibly reported that they and the boys were at a completely different place - the Eye of the World, far away from the battle - then Rand being there and doing stuff wouldn't make much sense since at that time the channelers cannot teleport.

That wouldn't work. For one thing, mentioning the Eye is sure to doom them, because the Aes Sedai all know exactly what the Eye is. Saying "he we were near a giant pool of the same stuff used at Tarwin's Gap, so it wasn't us" is just plain stupid. Especially since the Eye is known to move around, in the Blight. 

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

In fact, Siuan and Moiraine could have distracted the Red Ajah by spreading the story that there must be some other male channeler completely unconnected to the boys in Moiraine's company somewhere out there.

They can't lie, so that wouldn't have worked. They could have started the rumor I suppose, but I'm not sure it would have helped them.

RJ did write himself into a corner on that one, I think. It makes no sense this wasn't discussed at all, after EotW. Definitely a retcon.

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The way they sniff out things the Red Ajah and others should be interested in that guy. He is clearly connected to the important boys, he was in the Two Rivers, he followed them all the way, etc. - and all that was discussed out in the open when Moiraine and the gang first confronted Padan Fain in Fal Dara. The various Aes Sedai would also talk to and question the Lord of Fal Dara, his sister, and other people in the castle.

It wasn't in the open. Only Agelmar was around for that discussion. And I'm sure if one directly went to him and said "tell me what Moiraine learned from questioning this Darkfriend", he'd share, but why would they think Moiraine specifically questioned a random Darkfriend in the cellars?

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Because it is actually presented in a manner as if people were no longer remembering/hopefully wouldn't remember that they were friends in their youth. Which just doesn't make any sense in light of 'A New Spring' nor in general considering that their youth wasn't that long ago and quite a few weirdo things happened just when they took their vows, etc.

The weird things happening aren't relevant to their not publicly being friends once they were raised. Moiraine left the Tower, and we know she didn't return when Sierin Vayu was Amyrlin, because she directly disobeyed her orders. After that, we know it was Moiraine who went around hunting for the Dragon Reborn, and Siuan became the head of the Blue Ajah's eyes and ears, and later, Amyrlin. 

If they kept their meetings clandestine, and their public interactions brief, most Aes Sedai wouldn't care that they were lovers as Novices and Accepted, because that happens all the time. As your careers take you in different directions, friendships do ebb among Aes Sedai.

That said, some things are definitely retconned between the early books, when all this wasn't very fleshed out, and later, when New Spring was written. The enmity with Elaida was certainly not as developed at this stage, I think. But as you'll find out, she hasn't forgotten. 

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The idea wasn't that they would write messages silently but rather while they giving potential listeners a good show. In fact, the way to play it would have been to Siuan starting dressing down Moiraine while Lianne was still in the room, and then continuing the charade while they were alone for the entertainment of the gang outside.

Those immediately outside wouldn't be able to eavesdrop without anyone else noticing they're channeling at the Amyrlin's private room, which would be called out. The potential eavesdropper would have to be far from the quarters. And attempting to somehow convey complex information in writing while simultaneously dressing down someone doesn't sound like something any human can actually engage in convincingly. 

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The impression they give at the end of the conversation is that they wouldn't know that somebody tried to listen.

Well, then I'd say stick to reading till you find out you're wrong, and reassess your impression? 

If someone touches a ward against eavesdropping with the weave to listen in, the person who made the ward will detect it. This happens several times in later books while we're in the PoV of various major characters, so it's not like there's any doubt about this.