The Wheel of Time and Lord Varys (second attempt)

[Ran]

Even Tolkien, a genuine linguist, mostly has all characters understand the Common Tongue, from orcs to hobbits to humans to elves. It's just easier than having to interject the idea that people are talking in a mish-mash of languages.

[Lord Varys]

Now the guys are hooking up again - they just saved Perrin and Egwene from the Whitecloaks.

The stuff here is pretty good, actually, although I cannot but wonder if the Whitecloaks episode would have been less filler material if they had actually taken Perrin all the way to Amador. The way it goes the episode develops a side plot and then aborts it. That works, too, but it might have been more interesting the other way.

4 hours ago, Rippounet said:

Yeah, same here. I distinctly remember thinking that it was a poor copy of the beginning of Lord of the Rings. Of course, the main character doesn't get power(s) thanks to a ring, there's a female Gandalf, the party is made of teenagers and not hobbits... etc, but the whole thing nevertheless seemed to be shooting for the same atmosphere.

It is really pretty much a pastiche of Tolkien in the beginning. Egwene and Nynaeve aside, we have three Hobbits, a quasi-Aragorn with Lan, a female Gandalf as you say, black riders pursuing the heroes, shady guys in inns, and even folks that are clearly based on the Ents.

That said - this time it is this closeness to Tolkien that makes the whole thing interesting. If memory serves me, I feel the story goes down the hill when Jordan no longer follows Tolkien's formula.

On 10/5/2021 at 7:11 PM, fionwe1987 said:

I'm less concerned with people sleeping indoors when it is winter (because I bet if they didn't, Lord Varys would be here calling them stupid for taking the risk of sleeping outdoors), and more with how RJ tried to get clever with the timeline, and didn't quite hit the landing. This is definitely one of the weaker parts of Eye of the World, to me. 

They do sleep outside occasionally, as is referenced in the book. Mat complains all the time that he no longer wants to sleep under hedges or that he doesn't want to sleep under a hedge in the particular night they are about to enter the inn where they will inevitably encounter Darkfriends.

The issue here is just the fact that we get the very simple formula I described above which involves both stupid protagonists and even stupider evil forces. The Darkfriends should be able to communicate things much more efficiently, the Myrddraals would be all over the place, etc. Instead, most of the time the Darkfriends only catch up with the boys after they reached a particular village or town. That's most glaring in Four Kings when the boys took their time hanging out in villages and spending time on farms, working there ... but actually reach Four Kings before the Darkfriend from Whitebridge travelling by carriage gets there. The Four Kings episode would have worked much better if the shady innkeep had been a Darkfriend - or some residents at the place the boys hooked up with. The news about them should have reached the place days or weeks ago, meaning the villains would have waited for them. Instead, we get two factions of bad guys who clumsily try to capture them on the fly.

In general, nobody really can argue against the fact that people have to be very stupid if they are hunted by literal monsters and demons as well as have ample evidence that in pretty much any settlement they enter they are, in addition, also hunted by an omnipresent secret society of evil people.

Sleeping outside might mean you freeze. You might even get sick. But you are less likely to be found and tortured or murdered. And that would inevitably be their priority. Especially after Thom's apparent death.

[A True Kaniggit]

This thread doesn't say spoilers, but I want to complain about Rand's so called fate. Along with other things at the end of the series. So don't read if you don't want spoilers.

 

"blood on the rocks...." It's so dumb how damn near everyone in the series for some reason interprets this as, "Rand will die" When every reader knows it is a cop out.

"My blood on a piece of paper". (pricks thumb and puts it on paper). Look at that. Prophecy fulfilled. Obvious right?

I would've been impressed if Rand had actually died. It would've been right, made the series mean something. Especially since he spent so much time whining about how "he had no choice in his fate". But in the end he didn't die. While hundreds of thousands of others did die. Bullshit.

The Dragon Peace is voided. The terms were not fulfilled (The Dragon didn't trade his life). Unite and crush those slave owning Seanchan while their empire is still in civil war. Especially since they can't be trusted. They started collaring new Damane before the Last Battle was really even over.

 

[Corvinus85]

51 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

This thread doesn't say spoilers, but I want to complain about Rand's so called fate. Along with other things at the end of the series. So don't read if you don't want spoilers.

  Reveal hidden contents

"blood on the rocks...." It's so dumb how damn near everyone in the series for some reason interprets this as, "Rand will die" When every reader knows it is a cop out.

"My blood on a piece of paper". (pricks thumb and puts it on paper). Look at that. Prophecy fulfilled. Obvious right?

I would've been impressed if Rand had actually died. It would've been right, made the series mean something. Especially since he spent so much time whining about how "he had no choice in his fate". But in the end he didn't die. While hundreds of thousands of others did die. Bullshit.

The Dragon Peace is voided. The terms were not fulfilled (The Dragon didn't trade his life). Unite and crush those slave owning Seanchan while their empire is still in civil war. Especially since they can't be trusted. They started collaring new Damane before the Last Battle was really even over.

 

Spoiler

I wasn't upset that Rand survived the way he did. It was clear it was going to happen for about 3-4 books before the end. To the world the Dragon died, and I would say he deserves some peace. But I was annoyed about the giddiness of the three women. It would have been better if the bond broke. If Moiraine's bond with Lan broke because she passed into another dimension, with the OP melting the door, surely it could have been written that fighting the Dark One in a place where the fabric of reality was barely intact, while he was switching bodies, was sufficient to 'cleanse' his soul of all past burdens and bonds.

I agree with you about the Seanchan.

 

[Gertrude]

Spoiler

 

Yup, the ending was a cop out, but Jordan had planned some sequels, so that's where that came from I guess? As Corvinus said, it was not a surprise, but it was just so cheesy and unsatisfying. Alivia helped him die by handing over some gold and clothes? I get that  subverting a prophecy is a thing, but wow, that one fell so flat that it was better without it by miles.

And Rand needed the bond with his ladies intact so that in the sequels he knows how to find them, duh. They served no purpose together. Separately, they each played a role, Rand didn't have to love them all equally and golly gee I can't decide. I kept waiting for that to have a payout of some kind and have come to the conclusion that this is also a hook for the sequels. Min in the Seanchan empire (maybe), Aviendha in the Waste (maybe?) and good old Elayne in central Randland. That gives some good story hooks, right?

 

 

[Lord Varys]

Now the decision is made to go to Fal Dara. The point when magical shortcuts pop up to move the plot along things usually tend to get bad. But I don't recall any details so I won't complain yet.

I enjoyed the entire Caemlyn episode, especially the meeting with Elayne, which wasn't as stupid as I remembered it - although overall the whole thing was a distraction which led nowhere in this book, which means it may have been smarter to do it differently.

The idea that Rand still doesn't has clue who the weirdo beggar following him might be is, again, stretching things.

But I do remember now how bad Jordan is at writing women and why I think it is kind of obvious all the women are the same:

It is that basically all women react or behave in the same or a similar manner. For instance, Jordan tries to portray Elayne as a princess and a future queen by pointing out repeatedly that she is clearly confident and accustomed to give orders and isn't intimidated by the men serving her mother. But when confronted by Morgase later on Elayne behaves exactly like the little backwater girls Jordan has been describing earlier with Egwene and Nynaeve.

At the same time, Egwene and, especially, Nynaeve behave completely out of character if we are to believe they are backwater girls from the Two Rivers. Nynaeve should either be in awe of Moiraine or be intimidated by her - she should not dare to lecture her or tell her what to do. She was never around nobility nor was she ever around an Aes Sedai - and Moiraine Damodred is both, actually. The only female character Jordan seems to be able to write is the sassy woman who likes to tell men what to do. For Nynaeve it is also pretty unbearable how Nynaeve presumes to speak for or decide the fates of the three boys and one girl who decided to join Moiraine and Lan. She is neither their mother nor their legal guardian. She has no voice in their decisions at all, nor the right to interfere with their lives.

In relation to the debates about the romantic pairings for the show, I'd like to point out here that Jordan definitely seems to want to send the message that women without men - even very powerful women - are incomplete without a man at their side. They need them, that's why pretty much every woman gets one.

We have that with the Aes Sedai needing Warders - which I think is just a weird idea, their magical powers should make companions pretty much unnecessary -, with the political system of Andor which hands all the active military and warrior stuff to men which would also not be necessary. Why shouldn't the queen or the daughter-heiress not command the armies of Andor? Why would they been taught how to lead armies and command soldiers? That's the same in 'The New Spring' where the queen of Kandor also must have a prince-consort and other men doing stuff for her.

The issue is not that royal women marry, but rather that Jordan deliberately institutionalized things so royal men would be the ones in charge of the military matters while the women don't do that.

You also have that reflected with the whole Aes Sedai magical system where it is crystal clear that the male Aes Sedai are more powerful and thus the ones who should be in charge. The women are complementary - they help, they are crucial in binding groups of Aes Sedai together, etc. but they should not be in charge.

How incompetent Jordan is in writing women can also be drawn from his portrayal of the Aes Sedai as an institution. I do not mean that they don't appear as a force of good ... but rather that they are just a gang of mean women who scheme all the time while at the same time behave like clichéd men. After all, the whole thing about you deferring to any Aes Sedai who is stronger is men in men-only circles deferring to the biggest or strongest guy. The idea that the female-only Aes Sedai would basically just behave like a bunch of men and not, you know, also acknowledge other talents as markers of authority like, say, compassion, intelligence, common sense, etc.

[williamjm]

On 10/6/2021 at 11:42 PM, Lord Varys said:

It is really pretty much a pastiche of Tolkien in the beginning. Egwene and Nynaeve aside, we have three Hobbits, a quasi-Aragorn with Lan, a female Gandalf as you say, black riders pursuing the heroes, shady guys in inns, and even folks that are clearly based on the Ents.

If I remember correctly Jordan did this deliberately to make readers feel at home in the first part of the story. I suspect he might have done things differently in that respect if he was writing it today when there's not such an expectation that epic fantasy should follow Tolkien's template.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We have that with the Aes Sedai needing Warders - which I think is just a weird idea, their magical powers should make companions pretty much unnecessary

The oath against using the One Power against other people would make it dangerous to travel on their own without someone accompanying them since it could leave them defenceless. Of course, there are solutions to that other than Warders.

[David Selig]

The claim that all female characters are the same is frankly bizarre to me. The main female characters have very different personalities. Yes, a lot of the important female characters are bossy, but one common trait doesn't mean their personalities are the same. And almost all of them are people, who are in position of great power in their societies, so it makes sense that they tend to be bossy.

Quote

It is that basically all women react or behave in the same or a similar manner. For instance, Jordan tries to portray Elayne as a princess and a future queen by pointing out repeatedly that she is clearly confident and accustomed to give orders and isn't intimidated by the men serving her mother. But when confronted by Morgase later on Elayne behaves exactly like the little backwater girls Jordan has been describing earlier with Egwene and Nynaeve.

I am not sure what's your point here. Of course Elayne is more confident around others than when she has to face her mother, the Queen, after disobeying her express command. When has Nynaeve ever reacted in a similar way anyway?

As for Nynaeve, why should she be impressed by a noble when she has lived in a culture which doesn't have any? She doesn't see the boys and Egwene as adults at first, which isn't that strange given their age and she still see herself as the Wisdom of Emond's Field, thus responsible for the well-being of all its denizens, especially the younger ones.

Quote

In relation to the debates about the romantic pairings for the show, I'd like to point out here that Jordan definitely seems to want to send the message that women without men - even very powerful women - are incomplete without a man at their side. They need them, that's why pretty much every woman gets one.

Pretty much every man gets a woman too. And two of the three main male characters are shown to need the support of romantic partners way more than any of the main female characters. Yes, it's silly how nobody important can remain single till the end, but this has been a fiction staple since forever.

[A True Kaniggit]

I believe why so many male readers dismiss female characters as all being the same is because of the response to something Thom said while he was in Ebou Dar. Please give me 20 -45 minutes to look up the exact quote.

[fionwe1987]

I think the claim that "all RJ's female characters are the same" says more about the person making the comment than about the books, honestly.

He does show them all, almost, to be bossy and confident, foul mouthed and stubborn. And worse is when he uses similar physical tells of their feeling (she folded her arms under her breast, arched an eyebrow, and so on).

That the body language of his female characters is distressingly constrained is a legitimate critique of the books.

The women all have the same personalities is a blind statement that shows someone not engaging with the female characters at all beyond these superficial statements of what their bodies were doing.

It baffles me that someone can read even maybe 20 chapters of Eye of the World and think Nynaeve and Egwene were similar. Take it to the end of the series and that statement is mind-boggling. You had to have fallen asleep while reading about them to believe that.

 

 

[Corvinus85]

14 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

I believe why so many male readers dismiss female characters as all being the same is because of the response to something Thom said while he was in Ebou Dar. Please give me 20 -45 minutes to look up the exact quote.

Is that the one that says: "men forget but don't forgive, women forgive but don't forget"?

[A True Kaniggit]

Found the quote! I was right on the first try, in "A Crown of Swords" Page 468-469 of the paperback version I have.

 

"Why did you allow it, Birgitte?" Elayne exclaimed. "Mat Cauthon will corrupt the boy, and his mother will blame us"

"The boy is the same age as you," Thom told her in stuffy tones.

A baffled look passed between Nynaeve and Elayne. What was his point? Everyone knew that a man did not achieve his proper wits, such as they were, until ten year later than a woman.

Damn! was the extra point of "such as they were" even necessary? 

Nynaeve is a commoner. Elayne is royal.

Apparently the belief by females in this world that men are fucking idiots apparently crosses class divisions.

 

(Not saying they were wrong. We men are idiots. But you don't have to be so upfront about it .)

[A True Kaniggit]

7 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Is that the one that says: "men forget but don't forgive, women forgive but don't forget"?

See my post above.

That is the quote I was thinking of.

[fionwe1987]

So I went hunting and landed on this too! And I actually think this is one of the things I love the most about the books. RJ does a decent job literalizing the sexism of these women. And I felt a great cameraderie with them as reading their everyday sexism opened my eyes to the everyday sexism around me.

And a lot of my friends had sexist and homophobic and transphobic views that were variations of the the awfulness of the views of Nynaeve and Elayne and Egwene towards men.

The condescension and contempt they sometimes show for men or male perspectives are so reminiscent of the kinds of things I saw with men around me. And they've been allowed to be heroes of the story for centuries while espousing those very views. And no one felt all those men were the same.

So it became easy to see these women in that context. They're like most men who don't question the patriarchy or the gender binary. The ones who swallow it whole and live their life accordingly. They may even be amused by the thought of a man who can hold his own, even find him sexy for being "uppity", and stubborn. But somewhere deep in the logic of the worldview is the idea that men are lesser. That there is something inherently shameful in maleness, that it needs to be controlled or kept at bay.

That inversion of the sexism of our world goes in pretty deep. If you suspend your disbelief and try adopt this world view, the women are very distinct and interesting, but just have the same grating worldview at their core. 

And you know it's deliberate, because women from the Age of Legends, or ones with memories from that time like Birgitte, have totally different views of men. And the Aiel are somewhat more egalitarian, on this, though women do have greater power among them, too. 

The rules and power structures and the "bitchy" attitude of the women... It all works perfectly if you buy into the mythology of the world. I don't think it is perfectly executed by any means, but that is why I find claims that all the women are the same to be so shortsighted.

Also, it's worth noting that RJ writes great male characters, too. They have more emotional range and depth than a lot of comparable fantasy stories. Rand, for instance, is a very interesting and different male protagonist. He's more diffident, confused, emotionally scarred and filled with blind spots, not least his refusal to hurt even women who are attacking him.

[Gertrude]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We have that with the Aes Sedai needing Warders - which I think is just a weird idea, their magical powers should make companions pretty much unnecessary -, with the political system of Andor which hands all the active military and warrior stuff to men which would also not be necessary. Why shouldn't the queen or the daughter-heiress not command the armies of Andor? Why would they been taught how to lead armies and command soldiers? That's the same in 'The New Spring' where the queen of Kandor also must have a prince-consort and other men doing stuff for her.

The issue is not that royal women marry, but rather that Jordan deliberately institutionalized things so royal men would be the ones in charge of the military matters while the women don't do that.

This is a disappointment of the series for me. That Jordan wants to show an egalitarian or possibly a society in which females lead, but doesn't really think about what that means in the broader sense.

I don't have a problem with Aes Sedai having warders, but there is no reason it has to be a man. Why? Yeah, sure men are generally stronger, but you're gonna have a Brienne of Tarth pop up every once in a while. Same for soldiers. There are lots of ways for women to serve, but they just don't. Commanding an army doesn't take brawn, just brains.

Little things like the Two Rivers boys having a hard time hurting women because of an old-timey sense of chivalry bothers me. The Village Council is men and they take care of the outward decisions concerning the village, more political in nature. The Women's Circle has another realm of authority that centers more on the moral fabric and well being of the village (with the implication that they rule supreme behind the scenes.)

I get that this is the theme of men and women - separate but equal and different. I just think he started with an interesting theory, but then didn't really explore it more than skin deep. So yeah, you see women in positions of power, ruling, etc, but when it comes down to the nuts and bolts of it, men do men things and women do women things. And don't chalk it up to the times he was writing. I was rolling my eyes at this as it was being written. Maybe chalk it up to his generation and southern upbringing - maybe, I don't know.

Example from later cultures:

Spoiler

The Aiel are a warrior culture and the women have a place here. Sort of. A Maiden can't have children, but it's fine if the men warriors do. A Maiden can't have a child, let her husband or sister wife take care of them and then go back to being a warrior? And speaking of sister wives, where are the brother husbands? So again, an interesting concept, but still mired in traditional male/female roles.

And channeling. Yep - men are stronger with the more powerful elements while women are nurturers and healers, the support role to the action hero of male Aes Sedai. It's a confusing message. Men and women are equal, just different and they balance each other out, but really it's just traditional male/female roles all over again and that feels inherently unbalanced. 

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, williamjm said:

If I remember correctly Jordan did this deliberately to make readers feel at home in the first part of the story. I suspect he might have done things differently in that respect if he was writing it today when there's not such an expectation that epic fantasy should follow Tolkien's template.

Could be - you also have Padan Fain and Mat's obsession with the dagger as characters evoking Gollum.

5 hours ago, williamjm said:

The oath against using the One Power against other people would make it dangerous to travel on their own without someone accompanying them since it could leave them defenceless. Of course, there are solutions to that other than Warders.

Isn't the oath just about not using the One Power to kill somebody? But even if that were the case - the Aes Sedai are introduced as having those Warders long before we are introduced to the oaths. Which only happens when we go to Tar Valon with Egwene.

1 hour ago, David Selig said:

The claim that all female characters are the same is frankly bizarre to me. The main female characters have very different personalities. Yes, a lot of the important female characters are bossy, but one common trait doesn't mean their personalities are the same. And almost all of them are people, who are in position of great power in their societies, so it makes sense that they tend to be bossy.

It depends how you read characters. Those are not real people after all, but literary figures which are most characterized by very few traits. And Jordan's women seem to be all the same. I mean, so far pretty much all women are the same. There is little difference between Nynaeve and Egwene aside from Egwene wanting to be an Aes Sedai and Nynaeve not wanting that. Else they are very much the same character. And Elayne could basically be their sister, too. They are all the same.

Curiously enough, so far Moiraine is the only individual woman.

1 hour ago, David Selig said:

I am not sure what's your point here. Of course Elayne is more confident around others than when she has to face her mother, the Queen, after disobeying her express command. When has Nynaeve ever reacted in a similar way anyway?

I should have been more precise there. Elayne basically acts like one of the peasant girls when she is uncertain or contrite. Her mother realizes she climbed the tree, and then she acts like a peasant girl, arranging her dress, hiding the leaf in her hair, etc. A princess is dressed. She doesn't dress herself. She has servants for that.

1 hour ago, David Selig said:

As for Nynaeve, why should she be impressed by a noble when she has lived in a culture which doesn't have any? She doesn't see the boys and Egwene as adults at first, which isn't that strange given their age and she still see herself as the Wisdom of Emond's Field, thus responsible for the well-being of all its denizens, especially the younger ones.

The folks at the Two Rivers aren't as thick/stupid that they do not know that a larger world is out there and that very important and powerful people live there, no?

When Nynaeve catches up with the gang at Baerlon she still has some justification for doing what she does - but not later at Caemlyn where she, for instance, interrupts Moiraine claiming she would frighten the boys. Which is both stupid and presumptuous since at this point it is quite clear the Dark One is after the boys - meaning they should be afraid and are definitely not going to be kept safe by some Wisdom woman from a backwater village who too stupid to hone her own innate magical powers - and the boys have made it clear repeatedly that they want to stay with Moiraine and go to Tar Valon.

But if we go back to Emmond's Field then both Rand and Egwene told their respective families that they wanted to join the Aes Sedai, so Nynaeve had no right to interfere with any of that. She isn't their legal guardian, and nothing indicates that the boys or Egwene had to ask for Nynaeve's permission before leaving the village.

I'm not saying that it doesn't make sense to have women who think they should be in charge, who think their men need a strong hand or guidance or whatnot ... but you actually have to have a connection to and authority over a man to behave in this manner. You have to be his mother, his sister, his wife, or another close relation. If you are just a friend it starts to get odd.

And Jordan has pretty much all his women think and behave in this manner. They are basically all Olenna Redwyne.

1 hour ago, David Selig said:

Pretty much every man gets a woman too. And two of the three main male characters are shown to need the support of romantic partners way more than any of the main female characters. Yes, it's silly how nobody important can remain single till the end, but this has been a fiction staple since forever.

Doesn't mean it is a good thing. How those romances are depicted is another weirdo thing. So far Rand's harem isn't a thing, so that's not that bad yet. But Jordan's attempt to introduce the romance of Nynaeve and Lan is just silly. I don't know all the romances so far, but most of them seem to involve people who cannot admit they like another person and/or have to hide their affection and behave like children - feign ignorance, pretend you don't like somebody, and so on.

These people actually are adults. Why can't they behave as if they already had had relationships and romances in the past, or at least have the grace to not behave like children when they try to start one?

[A True Kaniggit]

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Isn't the oath just about not using the One Power to kill somebody?

No. The oath is you can't use it as a weapon.......

[williamjm]

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

Isn't the oath just about not using the One Power to kill somebody?

"I vow that I will never use the One Power as a weapon except against Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme of defending my life or that of my Warder or another sister."

It does leave open some ways for them to defend themselves but having a Warder gives them more options.

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, williamjm said:

"I vow that I will never use the One Power as a weapon except against Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme of defending my life or that of my Warder or another sister."

It does leave open some ways for them to defend themselves but having a Warder gives them more options.

That's pretty open, since you cannot really *know* that something/somebody is not Shadowspawn, no? You would also have a lot of leeway, presumably, defining what's a threat to your life. Not to mention defining what constitutes 'using the One Power as a weapon'.

[Gertrude]

And notice that their oath doesn't include innocent randos - they can just protect themselves, other sisters or warders. Screw those peasants. Yes, they can weave a block of air to hold someone, but their oath is telling of who they think is important. A sister who is strong in healing but weak in air might not have the strength to stop a person with from reaching an innocent bystander with air, but she might have the skill to stop their heart - she wouldn't be able to do that.