In what ways do you think/hope Martin will significantly subvert expectations?

[WhatAnArtist!]

Something that's never sat right with me has been the natural expectation that the series will climax with some kind of epic showdown between the forces of good/light/fire - Jon, Daenerys, etc - and the forces of evil/dark/ice - the Others - at or near the Wall, and that the dragons will be used to defeat them. I know that it's been foreshadowed quite a bit, and seems like the most logical purpose for including dragons in the series, and the HBO series ended things like this, but it seems to go against everything else Martin has ever written in ASoIaF. Things are never that straight forward, prophecies are always distorted, magic is also a double-bladed sword, etc. I don't know how Martin can believably resolve the Others storyline, but I sincerely hope it isn't as simplistic as how the show did it (even if it would still be executed better by Martin). I need to believe that Martin wouldn't spend decades of writing just to end things with an extremely cliché final battle between the good humans and the evil monsters. So, yeah, I'm really hoping that he has some kind of brilliant subversion of expectations and tropes with regards to the Others. If there's one place to do that, it's here.

But I'm sure most people agree with me there. However, one very controversial subversion of expectations I'd actually enjoy happening, but which I know nobody else would agree with me, and will almost certainly not happen, is Dany never going to Westeros. I think it would be a clever and thematically interesting subversion of expectations if, instead of claiming her "birth right" (an absurd notion that Martin has never taken too seriously in the series) of Westeros because of her Targaryen heritage, Dany decides to stay in Essos and continue the ambition of freeing the slaves, ending that institution for good, and ruling long enough to ensure things stay that way. I know that's essentially what she tried in Meereen, writ small, but I think her failure there will serve not to discourage her from trying to rule in Essos, but instead convincing her to be harder. I don't think she will go full "mad queen" like in the show, but she will definitely become a lot more ruthless and determined. I think the idea of her rejecting the archaic and irrelevant notion of "birthright" in Westeros, and instead deciding to stay in Essos and help people that truly need her help, will be a more satisfying ending from a character perspective. She learns that there are things more important than birthright and revenge, and does something truly monumental and legendary (ending slavery on a continent) rather than just being yet another pretender in Westeros. I fully expect no one to agree with me on this, though. It would seem to go against most of what has been foreshadowed in the series, and would probably anger most people who want her to "return" to Westeros and do all the prophecy stuff and fight the evil ice monsters with her badass dragons and all that....

But yeah, do you guys have any predictions or hopes for how Martin will subvert our expectations of the series in a major way?

[Tucu]

Here is mine: the defence of The Wall has already failed. The cold winds are blowing south of The Wall and I expect wights and WWs to appear in the North early in TWoW; probably after the battles around WF.

[EggBlue]

2 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

Something that's never sat right with me has been the natural expectation that the series will climax with some kind of epic showdown between the forces of good/light/fire - Jon, Daenerys, etc - and the forces of evil/dark/ice - the Others - at or near the Wall, and that the dragons will be used to defeat them. I know that it's been foreshadowed quite a bit, and seems like the most logical purpose for including dragons in the series, and the HBO series ended things like this, but it seems to go against everything else Martin has ever written in ASoIaF. Things are never that straight forward, prophecies are always distorted, magic is also a double-bladed sword, etc. I don't know how Martin can believably resolve the Others storyline, but I sincerely hope it isn't as simplistic as how the show did it (even if it would still be executed better by Martin). I need to believe that Martin wouldn't spend decades of writing just to end things with an extremely cliché final battle between the good humans and the evil monsters. So, yeah, I'm really hoping that he has some kind of brilliant subversion of expectations and tropes with regards to the Others. If there's one place to do that, it's here.

But I'm sure most people agree with me there. However, one very controversial subversion of expectations I'd actually enjoy happening, but which I know nobody else would agree with me, and will almost certainly not happen, is Dany never going to Westeros. I think it would be a clever and thematically interesting subversion of expectations if, instead of claiming her "birth right" (an absurd notion that Martin has never taken too seriously in the series) of Westeros because of her Targaryen heritage, Dany decides to stay in Essos and continue the ambition of freeing the slaves, ending that institution for good, and ruling long enough to ensure things stay that way. I know that's essentially what she tried in Meereen, writ small, but I think her failure there will serve not to discourage her from trying to rule in Essos, but instead convincing her to be harder. I don't think she will go full "mad queen" like in the show, but she will definitely become a lot more ruthless and determined. I think the idea of her rejecting the archaic and irrelevant notion of "birthright" in Westeros, and instead deciding to stay in Essos and help people that truly need her help, will be a more satisfying ending from a character perspective. She learns that there are things more important than birthright and revenge, and does something truly monumental and legendary (ending slavery on a continent) rather than just being yet another pretender in Westeros. I fully expect no one to agree with me on this, though. It would seem to go against most of what has been foreshadowed in the series, and would probably anger most people who want her to "return" to Westeros and do all the prophecy stuff and fight the evil ice monsters with her badass dragons and all that....

But yeah, do you guys have any predictions or hopes for how Martin will subvert our expectations of the series in a major way?

maybe figuring out what to do in the end is one of the reasons it's taking literally forever for Martin to finish the series!

but yeah .. I think ice vs. fire will be somewhat stupid and simple. I don't think the fire side will be the good side defeating monstrous icy creatures. for all we know that's what Mel and team R'llor think. the only time I recall a foreshadowing such thing is when Dany had a dream of fighting a battle in Trident riding a dragon... but still fire elements of the series are as bad as ice elements if not worse. dragons answer to no one . fire priests are fanatic dangerous people and dragonlords of valeria were slavers. so I always thought that even if dragons be used against the Others then dragons themselves must be eliminated somehow... but then again without any of these magical creature we'll go back to no-magic medieval world of book 1. so maybe there be some kind of harmony with green magic? anyway for anything other than simplicity Martin has to bring the Others to the story properly in the beginning of tWoW . all we know of them in this point is that they are big bad guys of the series...hence , what show gave us .

no. Daenerys will come to Westeros to fight the others , slay lies and all but I personally had an idea after reading aDwD that she will neither go mad-queen and usurp her nephews' throne nor she will submit to the next king and marry him. but instead goes back to Essos and finds her home there considering , you know, she actually survives the series!. I have no textual prove for this wishful thinking but I still want it to happen!

[Daeron the Daring]

I think TWOW will not be able to live up to the expectations of the fandom when it comes to secret identities. Otherwise, George will twist things well enough to surprise us. 

[EggBlue]

1 minute ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I think TWOW will not be able to live up to the expectations of the fandom when it comes to secret identities. 

why not? what do you think will be disappointing for example?

[Daenerysthegreat]

7 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

why not? what do you think will be disappointing for example?

I think that the r + l= j theory believed by many will finally be proven wrong

[Daeron the Daring]

34 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

why not? what do you think will be disappointing for example?

I don't necesarilly believe anything would be dissapointing to anyone, but I prefer to believe the entire series (assuming A Dream of Spring will ever come out) will leave us hanging in many way, regarding many misteries. Or at least not giving us the satisfaction of undisputable fixation. 

I mean, I believe in many theories surrounded by many secret identities, and even consider myself a rationalist of some sort when it comes to this. But still, it seems too much to me. I mean the secret identities. 

That being said, I can't imagine anyone not being satisfied, unless that given person is unable to enjoy a story that doesn't fit his headcanon. 

I believe RLJ (altough I don't want to guess how the story will benefit from that), I believe Ashara Dayne is alive, i believe the 3 Kingsguard may be alive, I believe Young Griff is a Blackfyre or a Targaryen, I believe his companions mostly all have some sort of secret identities as well, I believe Lem Lemoncloak is Richard Lonmouth, I believe Quathie is Shiera, I believe Val and Dalla may have been moonsingers and thus having some sort of secret identities (there is a good speculation about this, I'm pretty sure it was once really popular as well), I believe Coldhands is someone we may have met or heard of already. This is all I can think of right now that I actually believe (and not just consider a possibility). 

I believe it is an overexaggeration to assume everyone is someone else or a secret Targaryen. I'm not sure about the amount of stuff I believe. I start imagining myself overexaggerative. 

[EggBlue]

11 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I don't necesarilly believe anything would be dissapointing to anyone, but I prefer to believe the entire series (assuming A Dream of Spring will ever come out) will leave us hanging in many way, regarding many misteries. Or at least not giving us the satisfaction of undisputable fixation. 

I mean, I believe in many theories surrounded by many secret identities, and even consider myself a rationalist of some sort when it comes to this. But still, it seems too much to me. I mean the secret identities. 

I believe RLJ (altough I don't want to guess how the story will benefit from that), I believe Ashara Dayne is alive, i believe the 3 Kingsguard may be alive, I believe Young Griff is a Blackfyre or a Targaryen, I believe his companions mostly all have some sort of secret identities as well, I believe Lem Lemoncloak is Richard Lonmouth, I believe Quathie is Shiera, I believe Val and Dalla may have been moonsingers and thus having some sort of secret identities (there is a good speculation about this, I'm pretty sure it was once really popular as well), I believe Coldhands is someone we may have met or heard of already. This is all I can think of right now that I actually believe (and not just consider a possibility). 

I believe it is an overexaggeration to assume everyone is someone else or a secret Targaryen. I'm not sure about the amount of stuff I believe. I start imagining myself overexaggerative. 

now I understand what u say and honestly I agree although for different reasons. I think the problem is George is taking so long to write the books that we have had enough time to not only go through the mysteries he has set for us ( like tToJ) but also to reread so many times that we doubt the original mysteries and make up mysteries of our own. all the secret identities you just named were fun to speculate about and were somehow in plain sight like who RLJ (or R+L=whoever for that matter!) or coldhands or even Ashara Dayne. but then there are things that we have created for ourselves or we have read too much to finally notice. for example the whole (f)aegon thing.. I am new to the forum and fanbase in general but I assume before YG showed up people speculated that Aegon is alive but after he finally came to tDwD all the mysteries around him being fake showed up which is cool on its own . but the thing is if we never end up knowing that he is a Blackfyre some will think we are "not sure" but the fact is if we never know he is someone else then he is who he claim he is...you see what I mean? the same goes for Richard/Lem and bloodraven-not-three eyed crow(!) and kingsgaurds and Varys and Val and all the rest.

[WhatAnArtist!]

5 hours ago, EggBlue said:

but then there are things that we have created for ourselves

This is definitely the result of the fanbase being starved for the next book. If Winds came out only a few years after Dance, I'd be willing to bet that 90% of the theories currently floating around wouldn't exist. The "secret identity" theories are especially a bit ridiculous in just how many there now are. Martin really hasn't included many secret identity twists in the series thus far, so for the next two books to suddenly reveal a dozen of them would be extremely jarring, weird and out-of-place. A couple of interesting ones, sure, but not nearly as many - or as obscure - as some of the fanbase might currently believe.

[Megorova]

I think that majority of the readers will be flabbergasted when in TWOW it will be revealed that Bloodraven is not the Three-Eyed Crow; that Rhaego is actually alive, and will claim one of Dany's dragons, instead of Euron, or Tyrion or fAegon doing it; when the readers will find out that Jojen knowingly had lured Bran into a trap for him to end up same as Bloodraven - binded by a tree.

And all the prophecies will end up actually happening. There will be a new Azor Ahai and Lightbringer, there will be a great battle between the Others and the Watchers at The Wall, and that battle will be lost (because in his dragon-dream Jon saw himself being overrun/overpowered by the White Walkers/zombies). The Wall will fall, and then there will be another big battle, this one at the Trident, and same as in Dany's prophetic dream, she and her dragons will win in that battle. Then Dany will marry with Jon, who will become her third husband, and it will be like she saw in the vision in the House of the Undying and in the fires of Khal Drogo's funeral pyre.

The readers mostly think that all the prophecies that GRRM wrote in the books are either wrong or merely a red herrings. But he actually ALWAYS made all prophecies to come true. What GRRM had said thru maester Marwyn (and personally) about the prophecies, means not - how the readers incorrectly interpreted his words - that all the prophecies are bullshit, and not the real reflections of the future events, but that the readers and the characters in the books should be careful with interpreting the meaning of those prophecies/prophetic visions.

GRRM will subvert expectations by following step by step the path that he has already wrote for all of ASOIAF's characters in the previous books. They all will follow the script. The readers expect that GRRM will insert into the remaining books a lot of unexpected, unforeshadowed, out of the blue events. But that's not what he will do. He will subvert expectations by being predictable. He predicted numerous upcoming events, and all those events will occur in the following books exactly how GRRM has announced them through AGOT-ADWD.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

19 minutes ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

The "secret identity" theories are especially a bit ridiculous in just how many there now are. Martin really hasn't included many secret identity twists in the series thus far, so for the next two books to suddenly reveal a dozen of them would be extremely jarring, weird and out-of-place.

Martin's created this vast world for this action to take place in and people would have us believe that there's only 30 or 40 people in all of Westeros and Essos who matter and they all wear 2 or 3 faces each.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

3 minutes ago, Megorova said:

I think that majority of the readers will be flabbergasted when in TWOW it will be revealed that Bloodraven is not the Three-Eyed Crow; that Rhaego is actually alive, and will claim one of Dany's dragons, instead of Euron, or Tyrion or fAegon doing it; when the readers will find out that Jojen knowingly had lured Bran into a trap for him to end up same as Bloodraven - binded by a tree.

Yeah, I'd be flabbergasted by that. What's in it for Jojen, btw?

[EggBlue]

7 minutes ago, Megorova said:

I think that majority of the readers will be flabbergasted when in TWOW it will be revealed that Bloodraven is not the Three-Eyed Crow; that Rhaego is actually alive, and will claim one of Dany's dragons, instead of Euron, or Tyrion or fAegon doing it; when the readers will find out that Jojen knowingly had lured Bran into a trap for him to end up same as Bloodraven - binded by a tree.

And all the prophecies will end up actually happening. There will be a new Azor Ahai and Lightbringer, there will be a great battle between the Others and the Watchers at The Wall, and that battle will be lost (because in his dragon-dream Jon saw himself being overrun/overpowered by the White Walkers/zombies). The Wall will fall, and then there will be another big battle, this one at the Trident, and same as in Dany's prophetic dream, she and her dragons will win in that battle. Then Dany will marry with Jon, who will become her third husband, and it will be like she saw in the vision in the House of the Undying and in the fires of Khal Drogo's funeral pyre.

The readers mostly think that all the prophecies that GRRM wrote in the books are either wrong or merely a red herrings. But he actually ALWAYS made all prophecies to come true. What GRRM had said thru maester Marwyn (and personally) about the prophecies, means not - how the readers incorrectly interpreted his words - that all the prophecies are bullshit, and not the real reflections of the future events, but that the readers and the characters in the books should be careful with interpreting the meaning of those prophecies/prophetic visions.

GRRM will subvert expectations by following step by step the path that he has already wrote for all of ASOIAF's characters in the previous books. They all will follow the script. The readers expect that GRRM will insert into the remaining books a lot of unexpected, unforeshadowed, out of the blue events. But that's not what he will do. He will subvert expectations by being predictable. He predicted numerous upcoming events, and all those events will occur in the following books exactly how GRRM has announced them through AGOT-ADWD.

prophecies? sure they all come true in a way we can't predict

some surprise secret identity? sure why not

first battle lost? sure it makes sense

heck... almost anything else? sure

but how on earth do you think Rhaego is alive? and even if he is how would a 2-3 year old ride a full size dragon???

see , this is exactly what I mean ... some how we waited so long to believe Rhaego comes back, Tyrion's Aerys's son, Cercei/Jaimie are Aerys's....if we don't get the Winds soon , I'm afraid we'll have to discuss the "strong" possibilities of hot pie being the prince who was promised!

 

[Megorova]

2 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

What's in it for Jojen, btw?

When he was ill and nearly died, he had the same experience as Bran. Though in his case the 3EC either wasn't in his dreams at all, or she didn't bothered with saving him, or if she did tried to wake him up - she failed. She - Shiera Seastar, Quaithe.

So Jojen fell onto those ice-spires - the Weirwood Network, and when he woke up after his dream, he became possessed. Since then he's a slave of the Weirwood (the source of the Others). Thus Jojen had no choice aside from doing what the trees made him to do. Bloodraven is dying, and they need someone else with the same abilities to replace him and, considering that both Bran and Bloodraven are dragonseeds (Bran is Aegon IV's 4-times-great-grandson thru Melantha Blackwood, daughter of Mya Rivers - Bloodraven's sister and Aegon's bastard-daughter), Bran is a perfect replacement.

If Jojen haven't done what the Weirwood wanted him to do, then the Weirwood would have just cut off the lifeline on which it has hooked Jojen after his fall. The Weirwood could kill Jojen whenever it will want to do so. And Jojen didn't wanted to die. Though, while Jojen was leading Bran to his doom, he realised that the Weirwood will kill him too, eitherway, whether he will bring him Bran or wont, but it was already too late to go back by that time. That's why Jojen was so scared and sad in ADWD.

So - What's in it for Jojen? - He thought that this way he will save his life.

To "wed" Bran to the trees, what is necessary is a blood-sacrifice, a life sacrifice. Jojen thought that he will help the Weirwood to cook a trap for Bran. Though it has turned out that instead of becoming a sous-chef, Jojen became one of the ingredients for the merging ritual, thus - Jojen-Paste.

[Mister Smikes]

11 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

Something that's never sat right with me has been the natural expectation that the series will climax with some kind of epic showdown between the forces of good/light/fire - Jon, Daenerys, etc - and the forces of evil/dark/ice - the Others - at or near the Wall, and that the dragons will be used to defeat them.

I don't like the overused phrase "subvert expectations".  I would think that, insofar as it means anything in plain useful English, what you are saying is:  "GRRM likes to surprise his readers, so how can we outguess him?"

You are conflating the good versus evil with the fire versus ice issue.  On the former, I will note that many of the most outspoken fans of GRRM are postmodern moral nihilists who expect and hope that GRRM will end the book in a manner consistent with their philosophy.  Others, like myself, hope differently.  In this context, all that is going on is that various fans hope that GRRM will subvert the expectations of their philosophical enemies, but not subvert their own expectations.  I am no different of course.

On the fire versus ice issue, I agree that this story is not likely to be the battle of good fire versus evil ice.   I'm not quite sure at this point why anyone expects that, but if they do, I imagine they may be in for a surprise.  As for me, I think that Rh'llor and the Great Other are on the same team -- that of death.  As for dragons, I think they are terrible wicked creatures and that brave men kill them (it is known).  Dragons devour maidens, devastate crops and leave smallfolk to starve during the long winter, making Westeros easy pickings for the Others.  

But I don't mean to rule out some dragons being a force for good either.

Quote

I need to believe that Martin wouldn't spend decades of writing just to end things with an extremely cliché final battle between the good humans and the evil monsters.

If a True Knight were to slay an Evil Dragon, that would certainly surprise many of the readers of this forum.   Especially if the True Knight was a formerly wicked man transformed.  And if the terrible wicked dragon were one of Dany's, that would outrage many fans as well.

But there is room for GRRM to have it all.  He can have good humans versus evil monsters; good monsters versus evil monsters; good humans versus bad humans; and the war between good and evil within the individual human heart.

Quote

However, one very controversial subversion of expectations I'd actually enjoy happening, but which I know nobody else would agree with me, and will almost certainly not happen, is Dany never going to Westeros.

Nope.  Sorry.  That's just bad.  Sadly, if may be where we are stuck, if TWOW never comes out.

Quote

I think it would be a clever and thematically interesting subversion of expectations if, instead of claiming her "birth right" (an absurd notion that Martin has never taken too seriously in the series) of Westeros because of her Targaryen heritage,

Dany's destiny may be different than she thinks it is.  But if she does not find that destiny in Westeros, where it all began, then I'm sorry, that's just bad writing.  The threads of the story need to come together in some way.

Quote

She learns that there are things more important than birthright and revenge,

I have no problems with a surprise of that kind.  In fact, I expect one.

[Groo]

I think the subversion of expectations is more in the how rather than in the what. Look at Jon's story arc, for example. From plenty of fantasy stories we had every expectation that the boy hero who joined the Nights Watch would go on to become the Lord Commander. That's what happened. Part of Martin's greatness, however, is that it managed to feel like a surprise when it happened. It also didn't feel like a victory for long when the reality of the job set in. I suspect we'll get some sort of climatic battles. I'm hoping that Martin manages to make them seem fresh, new, and "unexpected".

[Megorova]

59 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

but how on earth do you think Rhaego is alive?

Swan Song part 11/16. The Stallion that mounts the world

59 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

and even if he is how would a 2-3 year old ride a full size dragon???

In a saddle. Like this one -

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:Aegon_on_Balerion.jpg

and this

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:Aegon_and_Quicksilver.jpg

Tyrion will make a saddle for Rhaego, same as he did for Bran.

Where do you think Tyrion got that idea to bind Bran into a special saddle, that will keep him from falling off his mount? - Tyrion is specialising in a dragon lore, so he saw schematics of those saddles, that the dragonlords were using to ride on their dragons, and used them first to make a saddle for himself and then for Bran, and later for Rhaego too.

See? -> GRRM actually gave us tips about a lot of upcoming events, including baby-Rhaego riding a dragon.

" In 77 AC, Alyssa gave birth to her first child, a son they named Viserys. Although she was advised not to do it, Alyssa put the newborn Viserys in swaddling clothes and mounted Meleys with him when he was nine days old. "

There was one more mentioning of a Targaryen-baby riding a dragon together with his mother. And GRRM is frequently using in his books sets of trinities. So Rhaego will be the third baby-dragonrider. Though unlike the other two, he will do it alone, without his mother, because he got used to live without her. He was raised by the Dothraki, so he is very independant. And he is the Stallion that Mounts the World, he's already a horse-rider, so to make one step further - to ride a dragon instead of a horse - won't take him a long time.

Also Rhaego is a skinchanger, so maybe this ability will help him to better control his dragon.

59 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

see , this is exactly what I mean ... some how we waited so long to believe Rhaego comes back, Tyrion's Aerys's son, Cercei/Jaimie are Aerys's....if we don't get the Winds soon , I'm afraid we'll have to discuss the "strong" possibilities of hot pie being the prince who was promised!

You're mixing together wheat and weeds.

[Mister Smikes]

As for the title question, I subscribe to many unpopular theories.  If they turn out to be true, many people will be surprised.  Or so they have told me.  Some have gone further and said they will burn their copies of ASOIAF, which of course they have the right to do.  Opinions will differ of course, and it is possible to surprise readers in a way that satisfies them (but you can never please everyone).  But there is nothing about "subverting expectations" that implies the result will be any good - and (IMHO) Dany  never reaching Westeros falls in this category of surprise.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

41 minutes ago, Megorova said:

When he was ill and nearly died, he had the same experience as Bran. Though in his case the 3EC either wasn't in his dreams at all, or she didn't bothered with saving him, or if she did tried to wake him up - she failed. She - Shiera Seastar, Quaithe.

So Jojen fell onto those ice-spires - the Weirwood Network, and when he woke up after his dream, he became possessed. Since then he's a slave of the Weirwood (the source of the Others). Thus Jojen had no choice aside from doing what the trees made him to do. Bloodraven is dying, and they need someone else with the same abilities to replace him and, considering that both Bran and Bloodraven are dragonseeds (Bran is Aegon IV's 4-times-great-grandson thru Melantha Blackwood, daughter of Mya Rivers - Bloodraven's sister and Aegon's bastard-daughter), Bran is a perfect replacement.

Ah right. I forgot reading that part of the story. Thanks

[Daeron the Daring]

2 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Ah right. I forgot reading that part of the story. Thanks

Welcome to the club. 

9 hours ago, EggBlue said:

now I understand what u say and honestly I agree although for different reasons

Not really for different reasons. I think the same as well. I personally read the books around 3 years ago (I think when S8 was delayed or something), all five of them in a month (I had a lot of time, allright?), but only joined the forum last year. (I sometimes visited and read a few topics before that as well) Since then, I was confronting so much stuff I feel I hardly can see anything new. It doesn't take too much time. I'm relatively new at the forum.

My opinion is the same as yours, I just talked about how too many fucking secret identities are already left hanging to not only a low fantasy novel series, but to any story. And yes, all this evolved speculation is the fruit of TWOW not being released.