Pat Rothfuss XVII: Games, Bets, and Minecraft

[Gaston de Foix]

30 minutes ago, Lord Patrek said:

Given Rothfuss' numbers, even if only 10% of his fans buy the novella the week it comes out, unless another big name releases something that same week, it could nevertheless be more than enough for it to debut at number 1 on the NYT list.

What will be interesting to see is whether or not it makes a huge splash that first week, and/or if it continues to sell in steady fashion after that. It's hard to estimate what kind of demand there will ultimately be for this novella.

But keep in mind that it's been over a decade and both TNotW and TWMF remain in Amazon's Top 100 fantasy books sold basically every month. . .

Yeah, a lot of my work colleagues who are (casual) fantasy fans are Rothfussians while never having picked up Bakker or Erikson or (insert admired but not universally recognized fantasy author here).  They are the kind of people who will read (and enjoy) Scholomance and Murderbot, and watch the Expanse.  

How are the current sales of the Slow Regard of Silent Things? I would think that is the best available indicator.  

[Lord Patrek]

There are no recent stats for that novella. But based on the Goodreads ratings and Mark Lawrence's metric, looks like it sold about a million copies since its release. 

We'll see this fall how well the new one will do. . .

[Ser Not Appearing]

I'll buy this one.

[Lord Patrek]

5 minutes ago, Ser Not Appearing said:

I'll buy this one.

I have a feeling you won't be the only one!

[baxus]

On 5/19/2023 at 4:29 PM, Gaston de Foix said:

You don't have to read his books, or this book.  You don't have to say its okay that he lied, because it isn't.  But, maybe, on a human level accept that him taking a small step towards writing again is a healthy thing.  I think he has enough money to live out his natural life, so I don't think he's doing it for that.   

On a human level, he can do whatever he wants. He doesn't owe anyone anything and he's no one's bitch.

That being said, he has falsely advertised his work. While we may accept the issues he may or may not be dealing with as a reason why he hasn't kept his promises, it remains a fact acted like a petulant child when asked about it.

Scott Lynch handled the problems he's dealing with quite differently and I am yet to hear anyone being pissed at him.

Edited May 22, 2023 by baxus

[baxus]

On 5/19/2023 at 4:29 PM, Gaston de Foix said:

But I very much believe that it is his awareness of that anger that, in part, drives him to ingratiate himself by promising something he can't deliver.  So, maybe, we should try to break the cycle by letting go? It feels like where we are right now is the Bad Place.  

I'd like to hear what gives you the reason to believe that? He has taunted his fans ("I'm playing games instead of writing"), got pissed off whenever asked about book 3 and overall given an impression of an asshole, but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on the last one.

Maybe we should break the cycle by letting go, maybe he should break the cycle by writing the book he promised was finished over a decade ago, maybe cycle needs to be broken by something else entirely. Whatever it is, the guy needs to at least apologise for acting like an asshole if the relationship is to be properly mended. Having long ago lost hope that I'll ever see this trilogy completed, I haven't been following the news about him outside of this thread so I may have missed such an apology.

[butterweedstrover]

Maybe I'm responding more to what I read on the subreddit than here, but still... 

Rothfuss is an adult. Everyone has personal issues to deal with and frankly you nor I understand the extent of them. Maybe his custody battle is due to abusive behavior on his part, maybe his wife is to blame, maybe it's something else entirely. 

He might have depression, or anxiety, but he is hardly the first. A professional is expected to act professionally in the real world no matter the situation. If I'm going to shop at a Bodega and I go to purchase a ham sandwich but the owner rather than ringing me up tells me to fuck off and compares me to a child and takes my money but gives me a dollar bag of trail mix instead, I don't consider his personally issues a factor in my response. 

The owner of the Bodega could have just lost his entire family, struggle with intense depression, got car jacked on his way to work, been dumped into a pound of concrete, evicted from his home, turned on to the streets, tested positive for stage four cancer, AND watched his dog get run over by a truck and none of that would matter. 

If you show up to work, you have have a set of standards expected of you. If you can’t hold yourself together, than don't come in. 

For Rothfuss, his work is his persona as an author, as well as his charity work, and his relationship with his fans. Parasocial relations make us feel that Rothfuss is our friend, but he is not. He is a guy who wants your money and sure he benefits from framing his fandom as a big old family but that just allows him to avoid culpability.  

Here is what we know. He released an unfinished book (yes, this whole trilogy thing is a modern invention. If each book is part of the same story his work is unfinished) and promised more. He raises funds based on his reputation and continues to solicit money based on those promises relating to his series. And then rather than apologize in a blog post he compares his fandom to children and tells them to buy his new thing. 

Get over yourselves, the guy does not deserve sympathy unless you mean to extend that sympathy to ever random asshole on the street. If you want to set the standards for Rothfuss, a man none of you know or have any emotional attachment to (his public persona is fake), as being deserving of kindness and forgiveness without asking for it, then extend that to anyone in your life. 

A biker hits you in a pedestrian lane? Don't curse back, empathize with his situation and understand he might have mental health issues. Waitress pours hot coffee on you and refuses to apologize, don't complain, empathize with her, she is going through a huge break up. 

No? You’re not? Maybe because that idea is insane. Empathize with the people in your own life, take their problems into consideration. Don't put that effort into Rothfuss, he is not your problem and he is not your friend.  

Edited May 22, 2023 by butterweedstrover

[Ninefingers]

On 5/19/2023 at 9:43 AM, Ser Not Appearing said:

<snip>

From the same perspective, rewriting The Lightning Tree is interesting because it suggests to me that he needed to explore Bast more or found (through rewrites of main novel) that Bast isn't quite the same guy he thought at the time The Lightning Tree was written. That's a spark of intrigue I appreciate. I'm honestly super intrigued to see who he presents Bast as in the rewrite. What's his relationship with Kvothe and the mortal world and what might that mean about where Doors will go?

 

Cut down your quote to the part about motivation for rewriting the lightning tree. From his announcement:

Quote

 

"So anyway, I'm like, how about I kinda, I get my shit together and write a thing. This is me thinking to myself. How about I write a thing and I get back into like putting out books. And then I'm like, I really liked the Bast story And it was way too long for a short story. And I went back and I looked at it and I'm like, you know, I could tweak this up. I could kind of improve it 'cause I wrote it kind of fast. And I'm like, maybe if I got Nate to illustrate it the way that we did for "Slow Regard" and I write an author's note and I kind of spruce it up and, you know, add some detail, maybe it'll be worth doing as a standalone novella, like "Slow Regard."

And so I took a look at it and I bounced the idea off the publisher and they're like, we think that sounds great. And I'm like, cool, it's only like 20,000 words. Is that okay? And they're like, that's fine. It's a novella. That's how long a novella is. And I'm like, cool, 'cause it's not gonna get much longer. And they're like, don't worry, it's cool. And so I'm thinking, great, I get to publish this. it's already written. This will be easy and be away from me to get back into it.

 

Perhaps a little too much honesty from him there. 

[Gaston de Foix]

15 hours ago, baxus said:

On a human level, he can do whatever he wants. He doesn't owe anyone anything and he's no one's bitch.

That being said, he has falsely advertised his work. While we may accept the issues he may or may not be dealing with as a reason why he hasn't kept his promises, it remains a fact acted like a petulant child when asked about it.

Scott Lynch handled the problems he's dealing with quite differently and I am yet to hear anyone being pissed at him.

I actually agree with every word of this, and have said as much on some iteration of this thread (down to pointing to Scott Lynch's much better handling of a very similar situation.).   I don't think I've said (or intended to say) anything that contradicts this.  

15 hours ago, baxus said:

I'd like to hear what gives you the reason to believe that? He has taunted his fans ("I'm playing games instead of writing"), got pissed off whenever asked about book 3 and overall given an impression of an asshole, but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on the last one.

Maybe we should break the cycle by letting go, maybe he should break the cycle by writing the book he promised was finished over a decade ago, maybe cycle needs to be broken by something else entirely. Whatever it is, the guy needs to at least apologise for acting like an asshole if the relationship is to be properly mended. Having long ago lost hope that I'll ever see this trilogy completed, I haven't been following the news about him outside of this thread so I may have missed such an apology.

Again, this is a reasonable position.  An apology is merited, but from one perspective, at least, it is premature. 

A lot of folks are angry at him because they want Book 3 and because he lied, made false representations, taunted fans, etc etc.  You may accept that he is not your bitch and owes you nothing, but you are in a minority there: a lot of people (including me) feel there was an implied contract or a reasonable expectation that he would deliver an end to his story.  So, if he says sorry, even in a reasonable best case scenario they will say some version of thank you, and can we please have the book you promised, actually, and we'll let bygones be bygones. 

Or, they'll say, fine you don't have a book to give, could you please give us an honest answer about when we get it.  And when he says, gee, I don't know, they are likely to get angry all over again.  We have tested the proposition with GRRM of deadlines, and periodic updates, and none of it really works because (most) people really, really want the end of the story. 

[Gaston de Foix]

11 hours ago, Ninefingers said:

Cut down your quote to the part about motivation for rewriting the lightning tree. From his announcement:

Perhaps a little too much honesty from him there. 

Yeah, although this quote might be (unintentionally) misleading because he then talked about totally rewriting and expanding the Lightning Tree (at least on the Twitch).  But, yeah, it's basically a species of honest admission.  

[Gaston de Foix]

13 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Get over yourselves, the guy does not deserve sympathy unless you mean to extend that sympathy to ever random asshole on the street. If you want to set the standards for Rothfuss, a man none of you know or have any emotional attachment to (his public persona is fake), as being deserving of kindness and forgiveness without asking for it, then extend that to anyone in your life. 

A biker hits you in a pedestrian lane? Don't curse back, empathize with his situation and understand he might have mental health issues. Waitress pours hot coffee on you and refuses to apologize, don't complain, empathize with her, she is going through a huge break up. 

No? You’re not? Maybe because that idea is insane. Empathize with the people in your own life, take their problems into consideration. Don't put that effort into Rothfuss, he is not your problem and he is not your friend.  

Except that he's devoted years of his life to writing books that have given pleasure to others. 

He may be less deserving of sympathy than the man in the street (although exactly did it become OK to not give a shit if a random passerby on the street stumbles and falls?), but your claim that none of his fans know him is just false. 

Every author tells you something about herself in the book she writes, and Rothfuss has told all of us a lot about himself.  Some of it is profound (e.g., the four doors of the mind); some of it is unintentionally hilarious (he struggles to tell the difference between swordplay and sex).   

I hold no brief for him, his online persona, his charities, his Twitch streaming or whatever.  I kinda regret deciding on a spur of the moment to attend the announcement.  But I hope we can move to a healthier place than just anger (however justified).  Maybe not.   We'll see.  

 

[IFR]

I'm quite fond of Rothfuss' abusive relationship with his fans, being a fan myself. Like with Martin, if Rothfuss publishes a book I will buy it because I enjoy the work. I don't care if Rothfuss is a pathological liar who can't tell the truth to save his life. That's his business, as far as I'm concerned.

I would like to see the end of the work, but if Rothfuss never gets around to publishing it...oh, well. There's plenty of other forms of entertainment to keep my attention.

Among those forms of entertainment is watching the battle of the author with his obessive fans, who feel entitled to the conclusion of his series because...we live in a world of entitled people, I suppose. Seeing the outrage of people who are righteously indignant that Rothfuss had the audacity to lie to them about something as important, as essential in life, as the next book in the Kingskiller Chronicles - this is nearly as entertaining to me as having the book itself may well have been.

It's like reading those Rant and Rave threads on Game of Thrones, where fans endlessly let loose their apoplectic rage in thousands (probably millions of words), because Benioff and Weiss had the gall not to meet the expectations of these very special fans, who absolutely deserve exactly what they want, when they want it.

It's glorious to watch nerds rage out and fill the vacuum of their existence screaming into the ether how they are entitled to their entertainment.

Edit: Just wanted to specify that I'm speaking of many of the fans on reddit and social media. I think this thread has a very moderate tone.

Edited May 23, 2023 by IFR

[butterweedstrover]

2 hours ago, Gaston de Foix said:

Except that he's devoted years of his life to writing books that have given pleasure to others.  
 

The bagel I had this morning gave me intense pleasure. That doesn’t give the store clerk a pass to be rude to a paying costumer and try to cheat them out of a purchase. 

Product does not equal Producer or vice versa

2 hours ago, Gaston de Foix said:

He may be less deserving of sympathy than the man in the street (although exactly did it become OK to not give a shit if a random passerby on the street stumbles and falls?)

This example you’ve got there has nothing to do with what I said. Showing sympathy for someone who is hurt is different from showing sympathy towards someone who is trying to hurt you.

2 hours ago, Gaston de Foix said:

, but your claim that none of his fans know him is just false. 
 

I’m sorry, but they don’t. In fact that they no less about him than they would a random stranger because there is misinformation playing on top of a lack of information. 
 

Thinking you know someone whom you’ve never met and about whom you have no insight beyond what they choose to publicly disclose is unhealthy and toxic. It builds a parasocial relationship off of a false premise. 
 

And, more importantly, he doesn’t even know you exist. This guy isn’t your friend and isn’t deserving of more sympathy than anyone else.

2 hours ago, Gaston de Foix said:

Every author tells you something about herself in the book she writes, and Rothfuss has told all of us a lot about himself.  Some of it is profound (e.g., the four doors of the mind); some of it is unintentionally hilarious (he struggles to tell the difference between swordplay and sex).   
 

It only gives you a facet of their psychology and often times a manufactured one. The best authors tend to write things without revealing their own personal influences but regardless these aspects of Rothfuss don’t give you the full picture. 

The only reason people know he is in a custody battle is because some internet sleuths were able to dig up a court order. There are a hundred things that could be about, any of which, if ever revealed, would easily destroy that image you have of him as a friendly nerd with sexual awkwardness. 

2 hours ago, Gaston de Foix said:

I hold no brief for him, his online persona, his charities, his Twitch streaming or whatever.  I kinda regret deciding on a spur of the moment to attend the announcement.  But I hope we can move to a healthier place than just anger (however justified).  Maybe not.   We'll see.  

 

A healthier place than anger isn’t love. Love for an imaginary person who is intent on exploiting that perceived relationship is no healthier than hatred towards that same individual. 

There is a fine line between love and hate which we see many fans swing between. If you want to avoid circumstances in the future where people rage against Rothfuss online then allow them to grow emotionally distant from this person and not worry about his personal issues or dig into his background. 

That way next time he breaks another commitment less people will be around to care.

[baxus]

7 hours ago, Gaston de Foix said:

A lot of folks are angry at him because they want Book 3 and because he lied, made false representations, taunted fans, etc etc.  You may accept that he is not your bitch and owes you nothing, but you are in a minority there: a lot of people (including me) feel there was an implied contract or a reasonable expectation that he would deliver an end to his story.  So, if he says sorry, even in a reasonable best case scenario they will say some version of thank you, and can we please have the book you promised, actually, and we'll let bygones be bygones. 

Or, they'll say, fine you don't have a book to give, could you please give us an honest answer about when we get it.  And when he says, gee, I don't know, they are likely to get angry all over again.  We have tested the proposition with GRRM of deadlines, and periodic updates, and none of it really works because (most) people really, really want the end of the story. 

Yeah, we all want book 3, and he did make false representations and behaved like an asshole and all that.

He doesn't owe anyone anything, but we don't owe him anything either. I mean, we want book 3? Let's not give money to him by buying his other work or donate for his projects or watch his streams or whatever he does until the book 3 is published. We should just ignore the asshole and cut our losses. Let him be forever remembered as a guy who promised a whole trilogy, released two books and was an asshole to his fans after that.

[Gaston de Foix]

4 hours ago, baxus said:

Yeah, we all want book 3, and he did make false representations and behaved like an asshole and all that.

He doesn't owe anyone anything, but we don't owe him anything either. I mean, we want book 3? Let's not give money to him by buying his other work or donate for his projects or watch his streams or whatever he does until the book 3 is published. We should just ignore the asshole and cut our losses. Let him be forever remembered as a guy who promised a whole trilogy, released two books and was an asshole to his fans after that.

Again, reasonable, and this has been happening anyway.  We are definitely in the downward slope of the bell curve of his career (peak probably being Lin Manuel Miranda being attached to the tv show).  We can debate the cause(s), but failure to deliver the third book was certainly one.

You do face a collective action problem here, though.  If only a significant fraction of his fans, like @Ser Not Appearing, buy this novella your boycott will not have the intended effect. 

Your approach is also not psychologically astute.  Amongst the reasons for not publishing the third book, implied in his own words quoted above, is shattered confidence in his own abilities.   

Such an individual needs carrots not sticks to change behavior, regardless of whether sticks are morally justified.  Sticks can be very effective tools to change behavior, but you lack the ability to lock Rothfuss in a cellar and starve him (or even a much softer variant of that in the form of a boycott).  Reputational damage ("let him be forever remembered...asshole") is so far removed (and has been incurred anyway at this point), that it lacks any motive force.  

Edited May 23, 2023 by Gaston de Foix

[baxus]

24 minutes ago, Gaston de Foix said:

You do face a collective action problem here, though.  If only a significant fraction of his fans, like @Ser Not Appearing, buy this novella your boycott will not have the intended effect. 

I'm not trying to run a worldwide boycott or anything. If anyone wants to buy his work or still listen to what he says, I won't call them names or anything like that. It's their time and their money, and how they choose to spend it is up to them. After all, it's not as if I don't spend mine in all kinds of ways.

27 minutes ago, Gaston de Foix said:

Your approach is also not psychologically astute.  Amongst the reasons for not publishing the third book, implied in his own words quoted above, is shattered confidence in his own abilities.   

Such an individual needs carrots not sticks to change behavior, regardless of whether sticks are morally justified.  Sticks can be very effective tools to change behavior, but you lack the ability to lock Rothfuss in a cellar and starve him (or even a much softer variant of that in the form of a boycott).  Reputational damage ("let him be forever remembered...asshole") is so far removed (and has been incurred anyway at this point), that it lacks any motive force.  

Is there anyone here who's never had their confidence in their own abilities shattered? Why do we keep treating this guy as a gentle snowflake? If he needs help to overcome his issues, he should get it, by all means. If he needed support from his fans, all he had to do is ask for it. Look at what Scott Lynch did. He came out, said "I'm having issues, I need to sort things out and I'll be away for that time" and everyone supported that. It's not as if fantasy authors' fandoms are bunch of whining entitled trolls.

Once again, I don't plan on punishing Rothfuss or harming him in any way. My way of handling his behaviour is to ignore him (apart from sometimes posting in this thread, obviously) and not spend money on his products. It's what I'm doing, not as some matter of principle but because I want The Doors of Stone, not some sample chapters or novellas and I especially don't want to watch him play video games. The other stuff just doesn't interest me. Just like, for example, GRRM's takes on New York Jets don't interest me, but I'm not trying to say he doesn't have the right to have them.

If Rothfuss needs me to help motivate him, he's in a lot of trouble and should probably get professional help to overcome that. In that case, he should just say that and focus on getting better, not streaming himself playing video games and accusing his fans of trolling when asking about Doors of Stone.

[Ser Not Appearing]

On 5/22/2023 at 8:44 AM, Ninefingers said:

Cut down your quote to the part about motivation for rewriting the lightning tree. From his announcement:

Perhaps a little too much honesty from him there. 

Interesting. So ... basically it's a writing prompt that can also make money.

[Ser Not Appearing]

I both sympathize and don't sympathize with whatever challenges he's got going on. It's worthy of my regard and can take on faces that we don't and can't understand... and it's never truly comparable to anyone else's path - even through similar troubles. But I also think it's somewhat beside the point. I've always been of the opinion that releasing part of a series is an implied social contract with readers. Some writers break that contract and readers can fuss over it but don't have a whole lot of options other than moving on. Pat has bent that implied social contract to a reasonable breaking point, not just with delays but with somewhat flippant answers ... regardless of the cause. I'm mixed on it all for him, obviously.

 

I often contrast what with GRRM. For myself, I've partially moved on from GRRM. I won't simply buy whatever he comes out with at this point. It'll really have to pique my interest. He's allowed to get distracted with whatever he wants but he's taken it so far and so long and he's got another book after this one (if he ever finishes this one) that I'm just ... I don't know what to call it. I'm not truly angry. I'm certainly disappointed and frustrated. I'm not fully ambivalent but I also can't honestly say that I think I'm ever going to get what I want, which is a finished series (certainly not in a time frame that's close enough to fruition to feel real), so I just don't have the same attachment. When a main line novel comes out, I'll be in. Everything else? I don't know.

 

Pat? We just need the one more book so it feels more real and my engagement stays a bit closer, even though I suspect that he's overall working less than GRRM. Getting a deeper look at Bast is intriguing enough to me, plus I admit there's probably some foolish part of me that thinks a writing prompt that does well could help his situation and maybe it renders and eventual third book more likely. It's a small part of me, but I acknowledge that it exists because I've had the thought.

 

His charities, however? He's broken trust on that and it's a pretty dark promise to break, in my opinion. In no way shape or form would I ever be willing to participate in that. If he released this book only as a charity thing, I'd never read it. Somewhat odd that I'd rather pay him and his publisher than a charity but that's the reality. I allow some flexibility for the author writing books ... but not for a misbehaving charity, even if it's functionally the same person.

 

tldr: Jamal (me) has mixed feelings and doesn't really know what to think. But he has thoughts and they're a jumble. Look at the monkey spit words!

Edited May 23, 2023 by Ser Not Appearing

[Gaston de Foix]

33 minutes ago, Ser Not Appearing said:

Interesting. So ... basically it's a writing prompt that can also make money.

A charitable take would be that it's an attempt by someone stuck in a series of vicious cycles to try to start a virtuous one.  

[Gaston de Foix]

12 minutes ago, Ser Not Appearing said:

His charities, however? He's broken trust on that and it's a pretty dark promise to break, in my opinion. In no way shape or form would I ever be willing to participate in that. If he released this book only as a charity thing, I'd never read it. Somewhat odd that I'd rather pay him and his publisher than a charity but that's the reality. I allow some flexibility for the author writing books ... but not for a misbehaving charity, even if it's functionally the same person.

100%.