Heresy 241 A Winter Rose

[LynnS]

5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

So Ned gets angry and tells Robert that he dishonored himself and he dishonored Cat in the sight of gods and men.

This reminds me of Ned's rage when he discovers that Littlefinger hid Catelyn in a brothel.  Being associated with a brothel would be a dishonor in Ned's eyes.  Which begs the question of why Robert thought Lyanna should have been buried under the sky where the rain could wash her clean.  And what it was that Ned's ghost told Bran about Jon.  Something that was more disturbing than the crow dreams.

[Frey family reunion]

Just now, LynnS said:

This reminds me of Ned's rage when he discovers that Littlefinger hid Catelyn in a brothel.  Being associated with a brothel would be a dishonor in Ned's eyes.  Which begs the question of why Robert thought Lyanna should have been buried under the sky where the rain could wash her clean.  And what it was that Ned's ghost told Bran about Jon.  Something that was more disturbing than the crow dreams.

I'm not completely convinced that Robert didn't know that Lyanna may have died from a complication of a pregnancy.  After all he both lays her death at the feet of Rhaegar, and also blames Rhaegar for raping her hundreds of times.  It's not really a reach that Robert believed that Rhaegar may have impregnated her.  

My take on the rain washing her clean is that Robert may have felt that Rhaegar sullied her through repeated "rapes" and perhaps a conception.  After all, we're not talking about the most enlightened culture.

[LynnS]

I noticed something yesterday about Mel's ruby or at least one of the ways she uses it.  Compare these two passages:

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A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

He leaves me no choice. So be it. "Devan, leave us," she said, and the squire slipped away and closed the door behind him.

Melisandre touched the ruby at her neck and spoke a word.

The sound echoed queerly from the corners of the room and twisted like a worm inside their ears. The wildling heard one word, the crow another. Neither was the word that left her lips. The ruby on the wildling's wrist darkened, and the wisps of light and shadow around him writhed and faded.

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon I

"Castle Black needs no useless mouths," Jon agreed. "I am sending Gilly south on the next ship out of Eastwatch."

Melisandre touched the ruby at her neck. "Gilly is giving suck to Dalla's son as well as her own. It seems cruel of you to part our little prince from his milk brother, my lord."

Careful now, careful. "Mother's milk is all they share. Gilly's son is larger and more robust. He kicks the prince and pinches him, and shoves him from the breast. Craster was his father, a cruel man and greedy, and blood tells."

 

These are the only occasions that we have seen on page, where Mel uses her ruby to give power to her spoken word.

The first quote is more obvious.  The second not so obvious.  Melisandre doesn't want Jon to send Gilly's baby away, so she tries to guilt him into reversing his decision.  She uses her ruby to give her spoken word more power.

What is interesting is that Val recognizes what Mel is doing and warns Jon to be careful.

It's possible that Mel has been using the ruby this way on Stannis and Selyse as well.  This might explain Selyse's fanaticism and her lack of objection to  Stannis' relationship with Mel.  

Mel also as some kind of hold over Stannis that we don't quite understand.  She also tells Jon that Mance is bound to her even after she removes the glamor.  .Is he still wearing the iron cuff with the ruby?

I wonder what kind of affect Mel's word will have on Jon and others now that her power is growing at the Wall.

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A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

While the boy was gone, Melisandre washed herself and changed her robes. Her sleeves were full of hidden pockets, and she checked them carefully as she did every morning to make certain all her powders were in place. Powders to turn fire green or blue or silver, powders to make a flame roar and hiss and leap up higher than a man is tall, powders to make smoke. A smoke for truth, a smoke for lust, a smoke for fear, and the thick black smoke that could kill a man outright. The red priestess armed herself with a pinch of each of them.

The carved chest that she had brought across the narrow sea was more than three-quarters empty now. And while Melisandre had the knowledge to make more powders, she lacked many rare ingredients. My spells should suffice. She was stronger at the Wall, stronger even than in Asshai. Her every word and gesture was more potent, and she could do things that she had never done before. Such shadows as I bring forth here will be terrible, and no creature of the dark will stand before them. With such sorceries at her command, she should soon have no more need of the feeble tricks of alchemists and pyromancers.

Like a magician, Mel keeps a lot hidden in her sleeves.  She can make someone tell the truth, create lust and create fear.  How has she been using them on the people around her?

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon VI

She stood beneath the scorched stones of the Lord Commander's Tower, cloaked in darkness and in memory. The light of the moon was in her hair, her red hair kissed by fire. When he saw that, Jon's heart leapt into his mouth. "Ygritte," he said.

"Lord Snow." The voice was Melisandre's.

Surprise made him recoil from her. "Lady Melisandre." He took a step backwards. "I mistook you for someone else." At night all robes are grey. Yet suddenly hers were red. He did not understand how he could have taken her for Ygritte. She was taller, thinner, older, though the moonlight washed years from her face. Mist rose from her nostrils, and from pale hands naked to the night. "You will freeze your fingers off," Jon warned.

 

A smoke for lust?

[LynnS]

I've got nothing today.  Except to wonder what Illyrio Mopatis is really up to.

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A Dance with Dragons - The Lost Lord

"They will do well enough, I suppose," he told Haldon. "The camp is only three miles south." The Shy Maid would have gotten them there more quickly, but he preferred to keep Harry Strickland ignorant of where he and the prince had been. Nor did he relish the prospect of splashing through the shallows to climb some muddy riverbank. That sort of entrance might serve for a sellsword and his son, but not for a great lord and his prince.

When the lad emerged from the cabin with Lemore by his side, Griff looked him over carefully from head to heel. The prince wore sword and dagger, black boots polished to a high sheen, a black cloak lined with blood-red silk. With his hair washed and cut and freshly dyed a deep, dark blue, his eyes looked blue as well. At his throat he wore three huge square-cut rubies on a chain of black iron, a gift from Magister Illyrio. Red and black. Dragon colors. That was good. "You look a proper prince," he told the boy. "Your father would be proud if he could see you."

 

I think this has less to do with glamours and more to do with binding someone to your will as we have seen with Mance and possibly Stannis.

Three rubies, one for each dragon rider?  I don't think Illyrio's hand-wringing over Aegon is that genuine and I wonder if he is in league with Benerro and Moqorro.

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A Game of Thrones - Daenerys I

"Regal," Magister Illyrio said, stepping through an archway. He moved with surprising delicacy for such a massive man. Beneath loose garments of flame-colored silk, rolls of fat jiggled as he walked. Gemstones glittered on every finger, and his man had oiled his forked yellow beard until it shone like real gold. "May the Lord of Light shower you with blessings on this most fortunate day, Princess Daenerys," the magister said as he took her hand. He bowed his head, showing a thin glimpse of crooked yellow teeth through the gold of his beard. "She is a vision, Your Grace, a vision," he told her brother. "Drogo will be enraptured."

 

[LynnS]

Why did Benjen go to the Wall?  Was it punishment?  Is he a skinchanger? What makes him the best ranger and the Wildlings enemy #1?  Is he Mormont's Raven?

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A Game of Thrones - Jon IX

"I do," said Lord Commander Mormont. "The cold winds are rising, Snow. Beyond the Wall, the shadows lengthen. Cotter Pyke writes of vast herds of elk, streaming south and east toward the sea, and mammoths as well. He says one of his men discovered huge, misshapen footprints not three leagues from Eastwatch. Rangers from the Shadow Tower have found whole villages abandoned, and at night Ser Denys says they see fires in the mountains, huge blazes that burn from dusk till dawn. Quorin Halfhand took a captive in the depths of the Gorge, and the man swears that Mance Rayder is massing all his people in some new, secret stronghold he's found, to what end the gods only know. Do you think your uncle Benjen was the only ranger we've lost this past year?"

"Ben Jen," the raven squawked, bobbing its head, bits of egg dribbling from its beak. "Ben Jen. Ben Jen."

 

 

[alienarea]

35 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Why did Benjen go to the Wall?  Was it punishment?  Is he a skinchanger? What makes him the best ranger and the Wildlings enemy #1?  Is he Mormont's Raven?

 

I wonder if Ben Jen is just a pun at Bennifer?

 

[LynnS]

Had my 3rd covid shot yesterday.  Mostly sleepy and sore arm.

[LynnS]

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A Game of Thrones - Jon I

"You are a boy of fourteen," Benjen said. "Not a man, not yet. Until you have known a woman, you cannot understand what you would be giving up.

"I don't care about that!" Jon said hotly.

"You might, if you knew what it meant," Benjen said. "If you knew what the oath would cost you, you might be less eager to pay the price, son."

Jon felt anger rise inside him. "I'm not your son!"

Benjen Stark stood up. "More's the pity." He put a hand on Jon's shoulder. "Come back to me after you've fathered a few bastards of your own, and we'll see how you feel."

Jon trembled. "I will never father a bastard," he said carefully. "Never!" He spat it out like venom.

 

What does Benjen know about having a few bastards of your own?  If Brandon had a few bastards, I'm not sure he gave them a second thought.  Is he then talking about Ned's love for Jon?  Does Benjen regret not being a father himself.  It almost sounds like Benjen was as naive about the NW as Jon. 

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A Game of Thrones - Jon I

Jon had noticed that too. A bastard had to learn to notice things, to read the truth that people hid behind their eyes. His father was observing all the courtesies, but there was tightness in him that Jon had seldom seen before. He said little, looking out over the hall with hooded eyes, seeing nothing. Two seats away, the king had been drinking heavily all night. His broad face was flushed behind his great black beard. He made many a toast, laughed loudly at every jest, and attacked each dish like a starving man, but beside him the queen seemed as cold as an ice sculpture. "The queen is angry too," Jon told his uncle in a low, quiet voice. "Father took the king down to the crypts this afternoon. The queen didn't want him to go."

Benjen gave Jon a careful, measuring look. "You don't miss much, do you, Jon? We could use a man like you on the Wall."

 

First Benjen tells Jon he is a man with skills the Watch can use.  Then he tells he is not yet a man and doesn't know what he is signing up for, what it will cost him.  He never really tells Jon what to expect on the trip to the Wall

Did Benjen go to the Wall because he was told they could use a man like him?  Was his head filled will heroic notions about the Watch.  Did he think there was no place for him at Winterfell?  Ned is not so eager to send Jon off to the Wall and I don't think he would have forced Benjen either if his Benjen's wasn't already made up.  

Benjen is a third son, like Waymar Royce.

[Melifeather]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

Had my 3rd covid shot yesterday.  Mostly sleepy and sore arm.

Took my 3rd shot on New Year's Eve day. It made me really tired as well. It's being put to the test right now as my boyfriend tested positive for Covid yesterday. He's vaccinated and boosted too, but he got his booster back in October and he takes immune suppressing drugs for his transplanted kidney. He also went spear fishing last week in South Dakota with two buddies. They stayed in a motel, ate all meals out, and went to the bar to play pulltabs - all without masks, so its his own fault he got sick. He expelled his hot covid breath all over me for two nights when he got back so I'm sure I've been fully exposed. Last night I slept in another room so that I could at least breath air that had a lower virus load. So far I don't have any symptoms, but he's only been home since Saturday. We're waiting to hear if he can be infused with monoclonal antibodies this afternoon. 

[LynnS]

9 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Took my 3rd shot on New Year's Eve day.

Geez.  I don't see anyone, small chance I'll be exposed.  My niece had a bout of it though.  I was worried about her husband who just had his 3rd glioblastoma surgery a few months ago.  But so far her husband and son are both clear.

Hope everything turns out well for you. 

[alienarea]

50 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Took my 3rd shot on New Year's Eve day. It made me really tired as well. It's being put to the test right now as my boyfriend tested positive for Covid yesterday. He's vaccinated and boosted too, but he got his booster back in October and he takes immune suppressing drugs for his transplanted kidney. He also went spear fishing last week in South Dakota with two buddies. They stayed in a motel, ate all meals out, and went to the bar to play pulltabs - all without masks, so its his own fault he got sick. He expelled his hot covid breath all over me for two nights when he got back so I'm sure I've been fully exposed. Last night I slept in another room so that I could at least breath air that had a lower virus load. So far I don't have any symptoms, but he's only been home since Saturday. We're waiting to hear if he can be infused with monoclonal antibodies this afternoon. 

 

41 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Geez.  I don't see anyone, small chance I'll be exposed.  My niece had a bout of it though.  I was worried about her husband who just had his 3rd glioblastoma surgery a few months ago.  But so far her husband and son are both clear.

Hope everything turns out well for you. 

You all stay healthy and safe, ladies, ok?

Got my 3rd shot a little over a week ago and was tired, but am tired anyway. 

[LynnS]

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI

They found Her Grace sewing by the fire, whilst her fool danced about to music only he could hear, the cowbells on his antlers clanging. "The crow, the crow," Patchface cried when he saw Jon. "Under the sea the crows are white as snow, I know, I know, oh, oh, oh." Princess Shireen was curled up in a window seat, her hood drawn up to hide the worst of the greyscale that had disfigured her face.

I wonder if Martin is referencing this verse:

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“Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord : though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become (white) like wool.

More references to red sin cleansed with white snow:

What Does the Bible Say About Make White As Snow? (openbible.info)

I think red sin refers to the blood of the innocent or having the blood of the innocent on your hands.

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard XV

Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion's crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.

 

 

[LynnS]

It's friggin freezing -26 C today.  I'm worried about this truckers convoy coming into Ottawa at the end of the week.  Now 80 km long from out West and more coming from the US via Detroit.  We could be gridlocked in the city and I expect this will empty out store shelves.  So I better get what I need for the next two weeks.  

[LynnS]

 

 

[Black Crow]

On 1/24/2022 at 4:00 PM, LynnS said:

Why did Benjen go to the Wall?  

Because Lord Eddard lied.

He lied when he spoke of young Bran growing up to have a holdfast of his own.

There must always be a Stark in Winterfell, but only one, which is why there is no Stark family outside the current generation

One son grows up to be the next Stark in Winterfell. Any others go to the Wall and don't come back

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

One son grows up to be the next Stark in Winterfell. Any others go to the Wall and don't come back

I'm not sure that would have been Ned's fate or that Rickard planned to send Ned to the Wall.  He was fostered with Jon Arryn, so there was some other plan for Ned.

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No. Some do (the Freys, the Lannisters). Some don't (Gregor Clegane with Sandor). Some put their excess relatives to work (the Freys again) in the castle, or give them vassal holdfasts (the Starks and Targaryens).

The Citadel: So Spake Martin - Land Ownership and Marriage in Westeros?

I'm inclined to think that Benjen made the choice for himself.  Ned doesn't even seem to think of the Wall as a place for Jon until Benjen and Luwin bring it up. 

Although I do think there is a tradition of Stark sons going to the Wall.  House Royce seems to have the same tradition.

Honor is part of Stark DNA:
 

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A Game of Thrones - Catelyn II

"And none of them has ever been seen at court!" Ned blazed. "The Lannister woman has seen to that. How can you be so damnably cruel, Catelyn? He is only a boy. He—"

His fury was on him. He might have said more, and worse, but Maester Luwin cut in. "Another solution presents itself," he said, his voice quiet. "Your brother Benjen came to me about Jon a few days ago. It seems the boy aspires to take the black."

Ned looked shocked. "He asked to join the Night's Watch?"

Catelyn said nothing. Let Ned work it out in his own mind; her voice would not be welcome now. Yet gladly would she have kissed the maester just then. His was the perfect solution. Benjen Stark was a Sworn Brother. Jon would be a son to him, the child he would never have. And in time the boy would take the oath as well. He would father no sons who might someday contest with Catelyn's own grandchildren for Winterfell.

Maester Luwin said, "There is great honor in service on the Wall, my lord."

"And even a bastard may rise high in the Night's Watch," Ned reflected. Still, his voice was troubled. "Jon is so young. If he asked this when he was a man grown, that would be one thing, but a boy of fourteen …"

 

Ned is furious and shocked.  The main issue is fathering sons who might contest  the lordship of Winterfell.  Ned wants a place of honor for Jon but he's troubled by his age.  Jon doesn't know what he'd be losing by taking the oath.  Benjen expresses the same sentiment.

I have my doubts that Benjen was forced to join the Watch.  Benjen was born roughly 267 AC and he seems to be gone from Winterfell when Ned returns from the war,   He would have been around 16.  I think Jon's naivety about the NW could mirror Benjen's perception of the NW at the same age.

It also seems to be standard practice for Lord Commanders and members of the Watch to visit Winterfell on occasion.  Third sons might be high on the list for recruitment.

So there is a question of what if anything Benjen knows about Lyanna and Jon.  It's not out of the question that he knows something.  Sticking around Winterfell would put him in a position of being questioned about it.  Perhaps he went to honor Lyanna's memory and safeguard Jon.  It seems Lyanna and Benjen were close, so I can't see Ned hiding the truth from Benjen.

So if Benjen knows, does anyone else in the NW know as well?  Maester Aemon, Donal Noye, Joer Mormont, the Halfhand?  They would be high on my list.

 

[Black Crow]

36 minutes ago, LynnS said:

No. Some do (the Freys, the Lannisters). Some don't (Gregor Clegane with Sandor). Some put their excess relatives to work (the Freys again) in the castle, or give them vassal holdfasts (the Starks and Targaryens).

So where are these Stark "vassal holdfasts" ?; where are their sons and daughters and descendants ?

[LynnS]

14 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

So where are these Stark "vassal holdfasts" ?; where are their sons and daughters and descendants ?

No idea unless they find a position with Stark vassal/sworn houses? Or small holdfasts:

A Search of Ice and Fire | 'holdfast' 

There seems to be no shortage of them.

[LynnS]

Or could it be that Stark sons were regularly sent to the Wall as a part of House Starks responsibility for the Wall and the Watch.   Perhaps Rickard and Brandon intended that Benjen go to the NW all along.  

[Frey family reunion]

6 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm not sure that would have been Ned's fate or that Rickard planned to send Ned to the Wall.  He was fostered with Jon Arryn, so there was some other plan for Ned.

If we look at House Royce as an example, the first son is the heir, the second son is the spare, and the third son’s fate is to man the Wall.  Waymar is sent to the Wall, Andar is considered Yohn’s heir, while Robar is kind of left to his own devices, which is why he ended up latching on to Renly’s Kingsguard.  Presumably you have to hedge your bets in case your first son is killed off, or his wife proves infertile, or their children die young.  I don’t think you can afford to lose your second son to a Night’s Watch vow.

We see a similar scenario play out with House Tyrell.  It’s the third son that is allowed to join the King’s Guard.  The heir, Willas, still unmarried, so Garlan exists as a potential heir in case Willas never marries.

So presumably, Rickon would be the one that Eddard would have encouraged to join the Night’s Watch.  Bran would have remained unattached (thus given his own holdfast to rule) in case Robb dies young, or Robb’s children dies young, or Robb never has children.  Ultimately if both Bran and Robb had children, it’s highly possible that Bran could have formed a cadet Stark branch.