US Politics: We Don’t Need No Stinking Lawyers

[Mindwalker]

Mike Godwin, who created the famous "law,";

Also...

And, as a surprise to nobody,

 

Trump Bragged He Had ‘Intelligence’ on Macron’s Sex Life

On the FBI’s list of documents seized from Donald Trump’s Mar-a-Lago estate, item 1a is listed solely as “info re: President of France.” For Trump, that has been a subject of intense — and tawdry — interest for years.

Specifically, Trump has bragged to some of his closest associates — both during and after his time in the White House — that he knew illicit details about the love life of French President Emmanuel Macron, two people with knowledge of the matter tell Rolling Stone. And the former president even claimed that he learned about some of this dirt through “intelligence” he had seen or been briefed on, these sources say.  (...)

But the mere revelation of its existence triggered a trans-Atlantic freakout, according to two other sources familiar with the situation. And Trump’s prior talk about Macron’s allegedly “naughty” ways that “[not] very many people know” only intensified those concerns....

And as a notorious gossip peddler for decades, it’s difficult to know if any of what he says is grounded in reality. “It is often,” one of the sources says, “hard to tell if he’s bullshitting or not.”...#

And the latest incident isn’t the first time Trump has fixated on salacious gossip about the private lives of foreign leaders, associates, and hangers-on.  ....

During the 2016 presidential contest, Trump briefly ducked into his campaign “war room” and teased mid-level staffers with some alleged intel —  on a pair of MSNBC hosts who weren’t yet public about their romance. “You know, nobody else knows about it, but I know about Joe and Mika’s little apartment in the Upper East Side,” he gossiped.

Oh, and the US has totes restricted spying on their own allies, but...

“While PPD-28 certainly constrained the degree to which the US would intentionally and directly collect on certain allied heads of state, there are plausible scenarios by which insights about them might be indirectly gleaned via collection against adversaries and their networks, human or technical,” one former Trump White House official tells Rolling Stone.

 

 

[Centrist Simon Steele]

Greenland ice sheet that is melting will cause sea level rise of about 1 foot even if we completely stopped using oil today--its inevitable.

Nearly another foot and a half of sea level rise will occur in the next 100 years if we don't reduce carbon emissions. So inevitable as well.

We've really passed the point of no return, and the Republican party is mad about 10,000 dollars in debt relief. The party--who measurably has fewer voters than the Democratic party, still holds enough party to drive the planet off a cliff, so to speak.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

The terrifying efficiency of Republican administration of important infrastructure:

https://www.mississippifreepress.org/26768/do-not-drink-the-water-jackson-water-system-failing-for-180000-people?fbclid=IwAR1VCNQQRCojGcJqFIlT_8KThRB2UQWmlTsesQyyJIoeOZb3Dxlosp1XjYA

[Maithanet]

Someone did the math on the exhaustion rates for the Alaska House seat.  Given those numbers, I think Palin will barely pull it out (I expect something like 20% exhaustion rate, with Palin winning in the low 70s of Begich voters).  But we'll see, it's a close one, perhaps Peltola can pull it out.  If so I believe she would be the first native alaskan ever elected to congress. 

[Ormond]

14 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Let's start by not comparing Trump to Le Pen. The latter is awful, but she's not like Trump. He's existing in a state of mind that is completely delusional. He likely believes everything he says despite all the evidence running against it. That is the behavior of an individual who is mentally broken, and that's just one facet of the many aspects of his behavior that is highly suspect. 

And no, not all of his followers are, but a great many of them are displaying what seems to clearly be psychosis. Up is down, the sky is red and water feels like sand to them. Do you think people who say Trump has never told a lie are mentally fit?

The official DSM definition of delusions in terms of "delusional disorder" is "false beliefs based on incorrect inference about external reality that persist despite the evidence to the contrary; these beliefs are not ordinarily accepted by other members of the person's culture or subculture.'

The second part of that definition is just as important as the first. A belief which is "ordinarily accepted by other members of the person's culture or subculture" is NOT a "delusion" in the psychiatric sense even if people in other cultures or subcultures evaluate it as being "despite evidence to the contrary."  The way the world is now organized, most of Trump's followers are definitely part of a subculture which constantly reinforces their false beliefs. Therefore they are not delusional in a psychiatric sense. If you want to call the subculture "crazy" go right ahead. I'd agree, but that is a sociological and cultural definition, not a psychiatric one. 

[Mindwalker]

Hmmmm... Tony Ornato unexpectedly quit the Secret Service.

[Zorral]

2 minutes ago, Mindwalker said:

Tony Ornato unexpectedly quit the Secret Service.

Why yes, yes he did.  He was among those threatening Cassidy Hutchinson concerning her Jan 6 coup testimony.

There are suggestions there is a serious thread of inquiry throughout the SS. Time to dump them and houseclean with new brooms in any case.

 

[Mindwalker]

He was so eager to testify, I'm sure it's a coincidence he's been delaying a little chat with the DHS since June. It's now supposed to take place tomorrow.

Apparently, it will be harder for the Jan6 committee to subpoena him now that he's a civilian. And...

Ornato had finally agreed to an interview with Department of Homeland Security investigators on August 31 after multiple attempts to arrange one.... since Ornato will be a private citizen, investigators won’t have testimonial subpoena authority to compel his cooperation...

Ornato may have played a key role in the insurrection at the Capitol. On January 6, he reportedly sought to relocate Vice President Mike Pence to Joint Base Andrews in Maryland....

A good day for the Secret Service, though, although I'm sure there are many more like him.

https://theintercept.com/2022/08/29/january-6-secret-service-anthony-ornato-retirement/

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

3 hours ago, Ormond said:

The official DSM definition of delusions in terms of "delusional disorder" is "false beliefs based on incorrect inference about external reality that persist despite the evidence to the contrary; these beliefs are not ordinarily accepted by other members of the person's culture or subculture.'

The second part of that definition is just as important as the first. A belief which is "ordinarily accepted by other members of the person's culture or subculture" is NOT a "delusion" in the psychiatric sense even if people in other cultures or subcultures evaluate it as being "despite evidence to the contrary."  The way the world is now organized, most of Trump's followers are definitely part of a subculture which constantly reinforces their false beliefs. Therefore they are not delusional in a psychiatric sense. If you want to call the subculture "crazy" go right ahead. I'd agree, but that is a sociological and cultural definition, not a psychiatric one. 

Idk, seems like you're letting one word do a lot of work to undo the rest as I think it was intended, and if we take this to a logic extreme, cult leaders would not be viewed as delusional from a psychiatric sense. 

Also, don't you have to consider that the delusion in part fostered the subculture to begin with?

[Kalbear]

19 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Idk, seems like you're letting one word do a lot of work to undo the rest as I think it was intended, and if we take this to a logic extreme, cult leaders would not be viewed as delusional from a psychiatric sense. 

Also, don't you have to consider that the delusion in part fostered the subculture to begin with?

From a psychiatric sense cult leaders are pretty on the edge there. That's entirely reasonable. 

It also doesn't matter if it fostered the subculture. The point is that you share common beliefs with others. Regardless of how outlandish other people view them, it is entirely normative psychologically to have beliefs that are shared with others. In fact, it is actually somewhat weird and dangerous to not share those outlandish beliefs as far as being healthy, even when backed up with facts and logic. 

[Ormond]

59 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Idk, seems like you're letting one word do a lot of work to undo the rest as I think it was intended, and if we take this to a logic extreme, cult leaders would not be viewed as delusional from a psychiatric sense. 

Also, don't you have to consider that the delusion in part fostered the subculture to begin with?

And why do you think that "cult leaders" should automatically be considered "delusional from a psychiatric sense"? 

I'm also not sure what the point of your question is. Of course a false belief which is supported by one's culture is almost surely going to have been fostered by the culture to begin with. 

 

[DMC]

Yeah the notion that a substantial portion of Trump supporters are delusional and/or mentally ill to a diagnosable degree is quite absurd.  It's like saying the 40 percent of Americans that believe in ghosts - or at least the 20 percent that claim they've actually seen a ghost - are delusional.  Hell, based on this line of thought you could argue all religious fundamentalists are mentally ill.  As Ormond said, this may be a valid political or sociological argument, but not a psychiatric one.

It reminds me of the South Park episode about 9/11 truthers.  I won't link the scene because it includes the r-word, but replace that with delusional:

Quote

Cartman:  Did you know that over one-fourth of Americans believe 9/11 is a conspiracy.  Are you saying that one-fourth of Americans are [delusional]?

Kyle:  Yes, I'm saying one-fourth of Americans are [delusional].

Stan:  Yeah, at least one-fourth.

Moreover, the premise of this argument - that Trump actually believes all the horseshit he spews - is a really big ass assumption.

[Zorral]

2 hours ago, DMC said:

that Trump actually believes all the horseshit he spews - is a really big ass assumption.

So, instead of calling him delusional, deranged, insane, sociopathic, psychopathic, narcissistic, he should merely be called a pathological lying grifter, who lacks any empathy, moral or ethical sensibility.

[DMC]

2 minutes ago, Zorral said:

So, instead of calling him delusional, deranged, insane, sociopathic, psychopathic, narcissistic, he should merely be called a pathological lying grifter, who lacks any empathy, moral or ethical sensibility.

I'm fine calling him all of those things.  I just don't think political statements/beliefs should be the basis for a psychiatric diagnosis.

[Zorral]

2 minutes ago, DMC said:

I just don't think political statements/beliefs should be the basis for a psychiatric diagnosis.

I didn't say you should think otherwise! Myself, personally, believe that he is all those things we both are fine with calling him is far worse than being mentally ill.  People generally don't choose to be mentally ill.  He chose to be all those other words, as well as a someone who sexually assault and rapes women, and may well, in his fashion, ordered hits on people.  Not mentally ill, but certainly a criminal.

[DMC]

8 minutes ago, Zorral said:

People generally don't choose to be mentally ill.  He chose to be all those other words, as well as a someone who sexually assault and rapes women

Right.  Generally, the mentally ill deserve sympathy and understanding.  Trump does not.

[Zorral]

AZ GOP Chair says in a Tucson Star report, that her fone must be off limits from subpoena because if the Jan 6 Committee sees it, "Thousands will be implicated!"

https://www.rawstory.com/j6-kelli-ward-subpoena/

The reichlicans have the very best smartest people you betcha! Do over the election right now and put ME back in the WH, and etc.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

3 hours ago, KalVsWade said:

From a psychiatric sense cult leaders are pretty on the edge there. That's entirely reasonable. 

And what is Trump if not a cult leader? It's just on scale we've never experienced here.

Quote

It also doesn't matter if it fostered the subculture. The point is that you share common beliefs with others. Regardless of how outlandish other people view them, it is entirely normative psychologically to have beliefs that are shared with others. In fact, it is actually somewhat weird and dangerous to not share those outlandish beliefs as far as being healthy, even when backed up with facts and logic. 

That's certainly a take. 

2 hours ago, Ormond said:

And why do you think that "cult leaders" should automatically be considered "delusional from a psychiatric sense"? 

I wouldn't say automatically, but it would be a built in assumption in many cases. I haven't read about many cult leaders that come across as anything close to stable and normal. 

21 minutes ago, DMC said:

Right.  Generally, the mentally ill deserve sympathy and understanding.  Trump does not.

It can be more nuanced than that. Just take Hitler for example. I can on the one hand acknowledge he's one of history's greatest monsters while on the other recognize that based on his own accounts and of those around him that he was dealing with some serious mental health issues made worse by a rough upbringing. 

[DMC]

3 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

It can be more nuanced than that. Just take Hitler for example. I can on the one hand acknowledge he's one of history's greatest monsters while on the other recognize that based on his own accounts and of those around him that he was dealing with some serious mental health issues made worse by a rough upbringing.

Controversial take here:  I still don't have any sympathy for Hitler either.

[Zorral]

It is also being suggested that the latest unhinged behavior there on troot so called are to help him declare and insanity defense it comes to trial.

Also the gop is now halting paying romperdoody's legal bills, including those concerning the dox and the FBI and the NARA.

It was a quid pro quo, when he threatened to start his own political party, the gop agreed to pay his legal bills, back in Jan 2020.

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/08/30/trump-florida-solicitor-general-mar-a-lago-probe-00054219

https://www.rawstory.com/trump-paying-legal-fees-now/

This will make getting any legal rep even more difficult, since he doesn't pay his attorneys.  The gop paid all the bills in the NY case brought by Letitia James.