[No Spoilers] Episode 103 Discussion

[Ran]

Spoiler free episode discussion here.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Ran

[Zorral]

Thank you!  Though it appears no one else will bother with this particular thread.  

But just for the record, for this non-book viewer, this third episode was entirely successful in everything.  I liked it very much, particularly the dragon action.  About time!  The dragons in this production are superior in their use and action than in got -- which is of course, since so many could bring what they learned and worked out from got, and could build from that.  

I like this show, more with each episode.

I can make criticisms -- one always can, even the creators' of incredibly good work, will still criticize their own books, music, films, regarding where something didn't turn out as one hoped and tried for and wanted.

[Zorral]

I do have a question: who are the dragon riders in the battle?  There are two or is it three dragons?  Since Lord Corlys is present was one of the riders his wife, Princess Rhaenys? Are their children dragon riders too?  And really, it would make the best sense for Princess Rhaenyra to marry the son.  

[DMC]

2 hours ago, Zorral said:

Thank you!  Though it appears no one else will bother with this particular thread.  

Sorry bout that, but yeah you're right.  Like you, I thought this was the strongest episode thus far.

2 hours ago, Zorral said:

I do have a question: who are the dragon riders in the battle? 

It's not a book spoiler to say that was Laenor who came to the rescue at the end.  Certainly was confusing for non-book readers though..and even book-readers for that matter.  They had yet to establish he was a dragonrider - presumably for the surprise?

[Cashless Society]

37 minutes ago, DMC said:

It's not a book spoiler to say that was Laenor who came to the rescue at the end.  Certainly was confusing for non-book readers though..and even book-readers for that matter.  They had yet to establish he was a dragonrider - presumably for the surprise?

It was definitely for the surprise, but the way the episode was filmed and edited wasn't in a way that would captivate viewers or have them gripping their seats, so the surprise fell flat.

[DMC]

4 minutes ago, Cashless Society said:

the way the episode was filmed and edited wasn't in a way that would captivate viewers or have them gripping their seats, so the surprise fell flat.

It was pretty standard action scene "suspense."  Not to mention they already established at the war council that they (or at least Vaemond) wanted to use Daemon as bait.  The "surprise" worked just fine - and wouldn't have been much of a surprise if they had already established that Laenor had a dragon (which, granted, would have led to much less confusion OTOH) - so I don't really get what you're complaining about.

[Cashless Society]

30 minutes ago, DMC said:

The "surprise" worked just fine - and wouldn't have been much of a surprise if they had already established that Laenor had a dragon (which, granted, would have led to much less confusion OTOH) - so I don't really get what you're complaining about.

But the confusion is what takes away from the audience's surprise. While there might not be anything wrong with the final scene, what I'm arguing went wrong is with the setup throughout the episode. 

A better way to go about it would be, at the start when Caraxes sends the crabmen into hiding, to have another dragon there as well, just don't show who the rider of it is. This forces the viewer to ask who has joined Daemon and Corlys. The first assumption would be Rhaenyra, looking to prove herself.

 

But when we go to the royal hunt and Rhaenyra is there, ruling her out as a possible candidate. So the only other option, as far as the viewer is concerned, is Rhaenys, as she is the only other Targareyan and only they ride dragons.

When Learnor brings up his plan to use Daemon as bait and his uncle cuts him off, viewers understand that the second dragon would be used to incinerate the remaining crabmen.

The main point of confusion comes when Daemon recieves the letter from his brother sending help. After beating up the messenger, Daemon just storms off, and so logically the viewers interpret this as him going on a suicide mission. Instead, after beating up the messenger, there should've been a slow fade to black and then fade in to Daemon on the rowboat as Viserys does the voice-over.

This instead introduces ambiguity as to whether Daemon is on a suicide mission or if he's going ahead with Laenor's plan. Also, since Rhaenys isn't seen during the war council, the mystery of who the second dragon rider is remains in the viewers mind. You can then have the rest of the scene play out as it did as now the audience would easily conclude that a rider does not need to be a Targareyan to be a dragon rider, just be a descendent of one as Laenor is.

[DMC]

14 minutes ago, Cashless Society said:

A better way to go about it would be, at the start when Caraxes sends the crabmen into hiding, to have another dragon there as well, just don't show who the rider of it is. This forces the viewer to ask who has joined Daemon and Corlys. The first assumption would be Rhaenyra, looking to prove herself.

Perhaps.  Just saying these complaints seem decidedly nitpicky to me.

15 minutes ago, Cashless Society said:

This instead introduces ambiguity as to whether Daemon is on a suicide mission or if he's going ahead with Laenor's plan.

I mean, IMO the scene as presented already had that - which I agree is a feature of the scene.

[Zorral]

9 hours ago, Cashless Society said:

The first assumption would be Rhaenyra

That was mine too, anyway. Then I thought, wait, isn't Rhaenys a dragon rider?  Though I don't know that either. '  I do hope we get more of Laenor, and soon.

Whom among the Targs and  Velaryon are dragon riders?  I thought all of them were born with it, but I guess not, which is cool. Enough dragons to go 'round for everyone would eat any state/family out of kingdom very soon, one would think.  Got to keep a strict population control on dragons.

For one thing Laenor's flying should quiet those howling about "Black" dragon riders, etc. Which is very cool, meaning dragon riding is not skin and hair color coded (see Jon Snow, I guess?). 

Or, as someone retweeted on a twit feed of another music supervisor who has done some Very Big television series, though not sf/f, "Those who object to seeing people of color in sf/f -- thank you for letting us know why you like sf/f." 

I do rather wish the battle scenes didn't go on quite so long (feel the same way about them in ROP -- and good grief, that cockroach-gobins, cave troll scene in Jackson's LOTR - eternity), so there would be more room for story, yanno?

 

[Zorral]

12 hours ago, DMC said:

I thought this was the strongest episode thus far.

I just realized a big reason this episode was more appealing:  it got us out of King;s Landing, which must be about the most claustrophobic, dark, unpleasant, miserable, stifling city on television, whether in Got or HOT D.  One cannot imagine anyone in Westros saying about King's Landing, as Samuel Johnson did about London, “Sir, when a man is tired of London, he is tired of life; for there is in London all that life can afford.”

But then, Westros doesn't have a community of art and literature, it appears.  Maybe that's why -- it doesn't have a London, which has always operated as a primary inspiration to English writers and artists -- good grief, just Chaucer alone!

[DMC]

1 minute ago, Zorral said:

But then, Westros doesn't have a community of art and literature, it appears.

I mean, Oldtown I guess.

But yeah, it was nice getting out of KL.

[Zorral]

14 minutes ago, DMC said:

Oldtown I guess.

OTOH a city that is supposedly the center of a state that is called decadent would have more fun, one might think. 

Don't know why this dynasty is considered decadent -- because it hasn't had war for a couple of generations?  That would normally indicate somebody doing something right, one might think, rather than decadence?

[DMC]

2 minutes ago, Zorral said:

OTOH a city that is supposedly the center of a state that is called decadent would have more fun, one might think. 

Sure, although other than Daemon going around killing people (not exactly decadent) we haven't really seen much of King's Landing in the show anyway.  Basically been confined to the Red Keep the first two eps.

9 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Don't know why this dynasty is considered decadent -- because it hasn't had war for a couple of generations?  That would normally indicate somebody doing something right, one might think, rather than decadence?

Well, the period is explicitly described as decadent in the books (along with some great illustrations).  I think the show has done a decent job showing this between the tourney and now this hunt - along with the decor inside the Red Keep.  But I do agree with other complaints that it'd be nice if they also portrayed some of the characters with more, ya know, happiness and mirth to go along with such decadence.

[EggBlue]

 

I've got some complains about the show's editing which I think are mostly contributing to non-book readers' confusion . so I'm wondering what you guys think about these ? 

• it felt like two episodes . they should have put some  Stepstone +Crabfeeder scenes in the middle of the hunting/feast scenes . I liked the shift between war in stepstones and feast's extravagant table very much . it showed perfectly well why it's a good idea for Viserys to support the war.... too bad the show went on to finish hunting episode before visiting stepstones . 
• they both failed Laenor and did him justice if that makes any sense ! I get that they wanted to show Laenor as Rhaenyra's suitable match by showing him speaking in their council and later attacking atop Seasmoke .  they should have introduced Laenor by name in episode one when Corlys talked about Rhaenys already having a son . now that they didn't, they should have had Strong mention his most important advantage : he already rides a dragon ! dragon riding ability must be a HUGE deal when it comes to marriages . the reason Velaryons are as big of a threat as they are is that they also have dragons . Lannisters and any other who want to marry Rhaenyra will become a third dragon riding family! then they go on to the war council where Laenor is supposed to be established as a warrior (which could be edited right after talk of him by Strong ,by the way!) . but we do not really see him well enough , the focus of the war is on Daemon although considering it was Laenor's plan , Laenor detecting Daemon's willingness to be a bait and Laenor's dragon , it kinda turned out to be more of Laenor's victory! it just focused on Daemon!
• the whole stepstone sequence is a huge failure . I'm not going to say anything about Daemon's plot armor  and the Crab disappointment anymore! the thing with the Stepstones is that it's been build up, build up, build up for 3 episodes and then a jump right into the conclusion ! there's no middle ! we don't see why Daemon and Velaryons are so frustrated and overwhelmed , we don't see how Daemon is the reason they're losing . we don't see why Vaemond goes behind Corlys's back to send a letter to Viserys himself . we only hear about them ! but that is good enough because we don't EVEN HEAR why the hell Corlys allied himself with Daemon ! we don't see any gold cloaks or men specifically loyal to Daemon . there are all Velaryon men  and Velaryon dragon and then there's Daemon , Corlys's "teenager" adopted son with his odd pet ,who is causing them losses through his tantrums !

 

if you don't know Vhaegar's riders , don't read below.

Spoiler

also , let's talk about Laena Velaryon and the most terrible dragon of the time . where are they? I mean ... I'm cool with not showing Laena claiming Vhaegar ;considering later Aemond scene , it would have been repetitive . but man , they needed to show or mention that Laena rides Vhaegar now . they could either put her in Driftmark to hear about Stepstones and pull an episode2 Rhaenyra to take her dragon to trouble without leave  , or they could put her in the court to show us she and Rhaenyra start bonding . but more easily , Strong could mention her in his little advice :" with Vhaegar under lady Laena's command and Laenor riding his own full grown dragon , an alliance with Velaryons is more crucial than ever "

 

 

[Zorral]

DO NOT TALK ABOUT THE BOOK HERE. THIS IS THE POINT OF THIS THREAD. Thank you.

Since when does erotic art signal decadence?  Anyone who assumes this knows nothing at all about art, history, etc.

Edited September 6, 2022 by Zorral

[Cashless Society]

21 hours ago, DMC said:

Perhaps.  Just saying these complaints seem decidedly nitpicky to me.

Can something really be called as a nitpick when it confuses a sizeable amount of the audience?

10 hours ago, Zorral said:

I just realized a big reason this episode was more appealing:  it got us out of King;s Landing, which must be about the most claustrophobic, dark, unpleasant, miserable, stifling city on television, whether in Got or HOT D.  One cannot imagine anyone in Westros saying about King's Landing, as Samuel Johnson did about London, “Sir, when a man is tired of London, he is tired of life; for there is in London all that life can afford.”

Having most of the events take place in KL is one of the reasons I've been the show so far. The 7 kingdoms are relatively peaceful during a fine extended Spring/Summer period. It would be a great time for members of the royal family to tour the realm. But instead, you've got all these self-serious nobles with an insular worldview that is reinforced by them being holed up in KL jockeying for power and sowing seeds for a completely avoidable war. I love it.

6 hours ago, EggBlue said:

I've got some complains about the show's editing which I think are mostly contributing to non-book readers' confusion . so I'm wondering what you guys think about these ? 

• it felt like two episodes . they should have put some  Stepstone +Crabfeeder scenes in the middle of the hunting/feast scenes . I liked the shift between war in stepstones and feast's extravagant table very much . it showed perfectly well why it's a good idea for Viserys to support the war.... too bad the show went on to finish hunting episode before visiting stepstones.

The editing definitely made it feel like it was two separate episodes (with the Stepstones portion looking like it got the short end of the stick) but thematically it was one episode, as there is a clear parallel between the arcs of Rhaenyra and Daemon (you could also include Viserys if you wanted to). There should've been a Stepstones scene that shows the logistical nightmare of the war. This scene should take place after Rhaenyra gets chased after Ser Criston (coming before Jason offers the spear to Viserys). A war council scene that emphasises the lowered morale of the soldiers should follow the scene where Viserys kills the stag. I think these scenes would provide better clarity and be in line with the themes of episode without the ruining the pacing of the episode. 

 

6 hours ago, EggBlue said:

 

• we don't EVEN HEAR why the hell Corlys allied himself with Daemon ! we don't see any gold cloaks or men specifically loyal to Daemon . there are all Velaryon men  and Velaryon dragon and then there's Daemon , Corlys's "teenager" adopted son with his odd pet ,who is causing them losses through his tantrums !

I'm not sure why this is a bother for you as theprevious episodes gave us all the relevant information on this. Corlys needs Viserys' permission to fight in the Stepstones, if he does so without Viserys' consent, Otto will convince the Viserys to punish him. Daemon, on the hand, can defy Viserys' orders without so much as a slap on the wrist. Corlys allying himself with Daemon ensures he won't suffer any consequences from Viserys but it also means that he has to put up with all of Daemon's bullshit. 

[DMC]

4 minutes ago, Cashless Society said:

Can something really be called as a nitpick when it confuses a sizeable amount of the audience?

Yes.  Particularly when the apparent intent was to "surprise" the audience about Laenor's ability to ride a dragon.  I disagree with the way they did it too, but the way you posed the question -- certainly yes.

[Cashless Society]

13 minutes ago, DMC said:

Yes.  Particularly when the apparent intent was to "surprise" the audience about Laenor's ability to ride a dragon.  I disagree with the way they did it too, but the way you posed the question -- certainly yes.

But the surprise, for this episode, should be followed up with an "aha, that makes sense" not " headscratching, can someone please explain this to me?".

[DMC]

3 minutes ago, Cashless Society said:

But the surprise, for this episode, should be followed up with an "aha, that makes sense" not " headscratching, can someone please explain this to me?".

Probably yeah, but this type of qualification is exactly why I view it as picking nits.  Agree to disagree.

[Howland Reed]

15 hours ago, EggBlue said:

 

I've got some complains about the show's editing which I think are mostly contributing to non-book readers' confusion . so I'm wondering what you guys think about these ? 

• it felt like two episodes . they should have put some  Stepstone +Crabfeeder scenes in the middle of the hunting/feast scenes . I liked the shift between war in stepstones and feast's extravagant table very much . it showed perfectly well why it's a good idea for Viserys to support the war.... too bad the show went on to finish hunting episode before visiting stepstones . 
• they both failed Laenor and did him justice if that makes any sense ! I get that they wanted to show Laenor as Rhaenyra's suitable match by showing him speaking in their council and later attacking atop Seasmoke .  they should have introduced Laenor by name in episode one when Corlys talked about Rhaenys already having a son . now that they didn't, they should have had Strong mention his most important advantage : he already rides a dragon ! dragon riding ability must be a HUGE deal when it comes to marriages . the reason Velaryons are as big of a threat as they are is that they also have dragons . Lannisters and any other who want to marry Rhaenyra will become a third dragon riding family! then they go on to the war council where Laenor is supposed to be established as a warrior (which could be edited right after talk of him by Strong ,by the way!) . but we do not really see him well enough , the focus of the war is on Daemon although considering it was Laenor's plan , Laenor detecting Daemon's willingness to be a bait and Laenor's dragon , it kinda turned out to be more of Laenor's victory! it just focused on Daemon!
• the whole stepstone sequence is a huge failure . I'm not going to say anything about Daemon's plot armor  and the Crab disappointment anymore! the thing with the Stepstones is that it's been build up, build up, build up for 3 episodes and then a jump right into the conclusion ! there's no middle ! we don't see why Daemon and Velaryons are so frustrated and overwhelmed , we don't see how Daemon is the reason they're losing . we don't see why Vaemond goes behind Corlys's back to send a letter to Viserys himself . we only hear about them ! but that is good enough because we don't EVEN HEAR why the hell Corlys allied himself with Daemon ! we don't see any gold cloaks or men specifically loyal to Daemon . there are all Velaryon men  and Velaryon dragon and then there's Daemon , Corlys's "teenager" adopted son with his odd pet ,who is causing them losses through his tantrums !

 

I think these are some valid complaints and I would agree with all of them.  With that said I thought the episode was not too bad.  They definitely needed to flesh out the conflict at the Stepstones much more, but I think when you add big time skips and so many things happening, this show is being told on a macro level instead of a micro one, so we lose a lot of the juice and details, which is unfortunate.  I was immersed in the show up until Daemon when John Rambo.  A lot of people seemed to not have any issue with that but for whatever reason I thought it came off as just absurd, wish it was done differently, bit more believable.