Does Anyone Else find Everything East of the Free Cities a bit odd?

[Craving Peaches]

27 minutes ago, The Commentator said:

I would not call it odd. Eastern Essos is exotic and exiting. The cultures and people we meet have detailed backgrounds. I was delighted when George promised that the Dothraki will be very prominent in the coming books. I was tired of Westeros before the end of book 1. It’s great to have the focus of the action in the Far East.  

Odd was the wrong word to use perhaps. I meant I felt it had this strange, dreamlike quality when I was reading about it. I found it exotic too and it was a change from Westeros, but I don't think it's been developed as much.

[The Commentator]

15 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Odd was the wrong word to use perhaps. I meant I felt it had this strange, dreamlike quality when I was reading about it. I found it exotic too and it was a change from Westeros, but I don't think it's been developed as much.

The tone is different because the setting is very different. With Tyrion, you felt like anything can happen at any time. We were introduced to another level of human misery. The stone men, Moqorro, Green Grace, and the minor characters were darkly colorful. Menace was everywhere.  

[Craving Peaches]

58 minutes ago, The Commentator said:

With Tyrion, you felt like anything can happen at any time.

Tyrion's bit where they travel along the Rhoyne was especially dreamlike.

[BalerionTheCat]

5 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

In fact, if one were to not care about currency then they wouldn't open and administrate like the largest markets in the world, where peace dictates trade in DK.

I'm not sure they administrate. The let traders trade. And pick what they want.

5 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Also, theyre all thieves. Wildlings steals women, Ironborn steals diamonds, Lannister steals castles, etc, the basis of asoiaf is taking stuff and seeing if the owner fights back, dothraki arent special in that regard

This is true. Every place has its black sheep, its criminals. But when you have people like Davos, Ned Stark, Brienne, Maester Aemon... plenty of other we misjudged. Then you are not in a completely desperate society. Dothrakis are no hope of anything good.

[Hugorfonics]

6 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Tyrion's bit where they travel along the Rhoyne was especially dreamlike.

I agree. I think it's deliberate, surreal, almost like purgatory. The Stonedmen themselves are pretty much lost souls. I think the setting was to reflect the possible curse of the kinslayer. Also like purgatory it's not just after death but before life, the birth of the turtle god and Aegon. That boat scene always stuck with me, GRRM paints such a vivid picture while remaining dreamlike. It's like a lucid dream, one of my favorite scenes of asoiaf.

8 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yes they were. Not in all of it but certainly in parts. Cities like Trier, Cologne etc. were all occupied by the Romans.

Word

 

 

5 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I'm not sure they administrate. The let traders trade

Of course there's administration, that's how markets function, especially when the police aren't allowed to carry guns.

There's two markets, one for locals one for foreigners, it's definitely more then just allowing randos to make money in their city 

5 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

And pick what they want.

It's likely some goods are taxed, why not?

5 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

This is true. Every place has its black sheep, its criminals. But when you have people like Davos, Ned Stark, Brienne, Maester Aemon... plenty of other we misjudged. Then you are not in a completely desperate society. Dothrakis are no hope of anything good.

(Not sure why you would bring up Ned or Aemon whom are clearly detrimental to the wellbeing of their society)

Davos and Brienne are special, heroes in a dark land. But that does not mean there are no heroes elsewhere.

Merren was the city of evil, when Dany wacked all of Aspators adults I was thrilled. Merren could have been the same, but it turns out scumbags aren't always scumbags. The elite shave their head to symbolize the shaving of their heritage and to start a new. Theres clearly good to be found in their hearts.

DK is much less explored then Westeros or Slavers Bay, really we don't know that many Dothraki, in fact we really only know 6. 1 dead husband, 2 handmaidens and three heroes. 

How can you compare Danys Bloodriders to criminals? They're freeing half the continent! Personally striking off chains and slaying the masters. Sometimes their ignorance gets the best out of them and they say some old timey shit but Dany explains it and they turn chill, which again isn't a Dothraki trait, Jorah and Selmy are constantly putting their foot in their mouth as well.

[Jaenara Belarys]

On 10/10/2022 at 1:14 PM, Hugorfonics said:

1492 is the year of the inquisition, what's more medieval then that? They had guns but they used them to violently debate scripture and lose battles to barbarians.

 

Technically the Inquisition first started with the Cathars and southern France, IIRC. But besides the nitpicking, 

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

Does Anyone Else find Everything East of the Free Cities a bit odd?  Not me.  I found the change of venue a welcome relief from the dullness of Westeros.  Daenerys, the dragons, Barristan, Jorah, and the best of the characters are all in the East. 

[BalerionTheCat]

21 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

It's likely some goods are taxed, why not?

This part of commerce they understand. Taxes, tolls, bribery. It's just a question of who is in charge.

I don't deny they understand how business is done. Guys like Drogo at least. But administration...

21 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

The elite shave their head to symbolize the shaving of their heritage and to start a new. Theres clearly good to be found in their hearts.

The elite adapts to the situation and prepare to the post Dany era. They're not fools. They know her departure will leave a power vacuum. You know, crises are an opportunity to grow.

21 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

in fact we really only know 6. 1 dead husband, 2 handmaidens and three heroes.

We know the Dothraki erased all civilisations in what is now the Dothraki's Sea. We've seen Cohollo, Haggo, and Qotho, Khal Drogo bloodriders. We've seen Mago, Jhaqo and some others. None to recommend.

21 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

They're freeing half the continent! Personally striking off chains and slaying the masters.

Slaying sure. The Dothraki only value power. And Dany has plenty.

Freeing slaves? They're just doing what Dany tells them. Of course, these 3 can learn. But I doubt the rest will come to Westeros with peace and love in mind.

[Hugorfonics]

6 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

This part of commerce they understand. Taxes, tolls, bribery. It's just a question of who is in charge.

Who's in charge? The crones? The markets are, I think, always in use not just when a khal is present

6 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I don't deny they understand how business is done. Guys like Drogo at least. But administration...

Somebodys doing something. Probably the old ladies. Why not call it administration? Just more chanting less file cabinets.

6 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

The elite adapts to the situation and prepare to the post Dany era. They're not fools. They know her departure will leave a power vacuum. You know, crises are an opportunity to grow.

For sure, but whatever the reason they're on the side of right now. A side previously thought unobtainable.

6 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

We know the Dothraki erased all civilisations in what is now the Dothraki's Sea.

Ancient history. The Anglo Saxons erased all Britannia, but today they seem like brilliant blokes. 

6 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

We've seen Cohollo, Haggo, and Qotho, Khal Drogo bloodriders.

Ok, we've also seen the vipers that Joffrey calls a kg. We don't know much about them either, aside from Sandor, just that they're a bunch of tools.

6 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

We've seen Mago, Jhaqo and some others. None to recommend.

But these aren't the Briennes and Davos'. More like then Renlys and Stannis'. (Jorah remarked how Robert should have been Dothraki, maybe it's a Baratheon trait) A war lord is a war lord 

6 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Slaying sure. The Dothraki only value power. And Dany has plenty.

They all do man. That's why Lady Dustin is checking Ramsay's shoe size while the RL dip their banner to the kingslayer.

6 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Freeing slaves? They're just doing what Dany tells them. Of course, these 3 can learn. But I doubt the rest will come to Westeros with peace and love in mind.

Of course they can learn, they're as human as Danys bloodriders are.

And no, they're coming to war. But also to start a new because their old way is over. Without slavers bay the Dothraki are out off a seller, their destiny is in question now and the lady on the dragon probably has all the answers 

[TheLastWolf]

It was the same in our world's medieval setting. Ignorance of alien culture leads to fear and hatred further leading to villainization. I'm not tslking about the slavers though, ugly bastards. Otherwise POVs set in the East show that they're humans too, same problems different contexts.

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, TheLastWolf said:

It was the same in our world's medieval setting. Ignorance of alien culture leads to fear and hatred further leading to villainization. I'm not tslking about the slavers though, ugly bastards. Otherwise POVs set in the East show that they're humans too, same problems different contexts.

I think I used the wrong choice of words in the title. What I meant is that it feels strange to me because a lot of the characters feel flat in terms of their development and motivation. Namely the Masters and Dothraki.

[TheLastWolf]

6 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think I used the wrong choice of words in the title. What I meant is that it feels strange to me because a lot of the characters feel flat in terms of their development and motivation. Namely the Masters and Dothraki.

Maybe they are in George's mind

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, TheLastWolf said:

Maybe they are in George's mind

Perhaps. But the Dothraki seem to have no motivation except raiding, pillaging, slaving. The masters have no motivation other that...being evil?

[Nevets]

Of course Essos is underdeveloped.  The story isn't about it; it's about Westeros.  Essos's purpose in the story is to be the locale where Daenerys does her thing; learn leadership skills, free slaves, run a city, etc. 

Even the main secondary characters are Westerosi.  Drogo was the most important non-Westeros character, and he's been dead for four books.  Missandei is probably the most prominent now, and she isn't even from Essos.  The residents of Meereen are basically cardboard cutouts with names. 

Essentially, it's flat because it really isn't that important overall.  It's a training ground for Dany and now a place for Tyrion to get his mojo back - or not.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

8 hours ago, Nevets said:

Of course Essos is underdeveloped.  The story isn't about it; it's about Westeros.  Essos's purpose in the story is to be the locale where Daenerys does her thing; learn leadership skills, free slaves, run a city, etc. 

Even the main secondary characters are Westerosi.  Drogo was the most important non-Westeros character, and he's been dead for four books.  Missandei is probably the most prominent now, and she isn't even from Essos.  The residents of Meereen are basically cardboard cutouts with names. 

Essentially, it's flat because it really isn't that important overall.  It's a training ground for Dany and now a place for Tyrion to get his mojo back - or not.

I basically agree--and would also add that part of the flatness is due to the Westerosi POVs that color those chapters. But I do think that GRRM could have spent a little more time fleshing out those ideas, at least to hint at something richer beneath the surface. It just comes off as under-baked writing.

[BalerionTheCat]

18 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Who's in charge? The crones? The markets are, I think, always in use not just when a khal is present

Vaes Dothrak is the only permanent settlement of the Dothraki. We don't know much of its working. We don't know much of the dosh khaleen either. And still less of the slaves who built the buildings. But the ladies don't seem especially enlightened. So I would guess the slaves do most of the job of organizing what need to be done. Doesn't matter.

What I mean is this place is the exception of the Dothraki "civilization". This is not what they replicate or develop elsewhere. What the horse lords scumbags do elsewhere. Elsewhere, they only  create wastelands.

18 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Ok, we've also seen the vipers that Joffrey calls a kg. We don't know much about them either, just that they're a bunch of tools

Yes. Most are one dimensional villain. Or barely more. So they be misery for the good guys. They are everywhere: Gregor, Ramsay and his pals, Clayton Suggs, Victarion, the Weeper... We already know enough of them.

[Ring3r]

I firmly believe that a huge amount of land-area East of the free cities was inland-sea prior to Other-caused glaciation lowering the sea levels, so unless you're willing to consider that, my opinion is pretty pointless.  From my perspective, there's a reason so many places in the far East have sea-themed names.

I think that area of the world was the hardest hit by the Long Night, apart from Westeros itself, and it's very chaotic and disorganized as a result.  The people who survived in that part of the world saw their entire universe up-ended and reversed....sea-going cultures being converted to desert-dwellers (the Dothraki) in a very short span of time.

[James West]

The story began in the closed and rather small world of the north.  It gradually expanded and new people and places were introduced.  You have to look at the novels as one story.  It began in a backwards village with unsophisticated people who have not gone much further than their small confines would allow.  Ned and Cat had travelled but their children were ignorant and never been to a city.  Never been to a city!  Imagine that.  The first scenes take place in the north and then story expanded to the Free Cities and Essos.  The vastness of the great Dothraki Sea and the size of the cities we see in the east introduced us to a whole new level of scale.  The settings changed from muddy villages in the west to the developed cities of the east.  Don't worry if that is not enough for you.  George Martin plans to bring back the Dothraki in a big way.  We will learn of their origins in the next book.  

[Craving Peaches]

15 minutes ago, James West said:

We will learn of their origins in the next book.  

Will this explain the Dothraki - Lhazareen connection?

[BalerionTheCat]

19 hours ago, Ring3r said:

I firmly believe that a huge amount of land-area East of the free cities was inland-sea prior to Other-caused glaciation lowering the sea levels

The maesters believe there was a sea, the Silver Sea in the area of the Sarnor kingdoms; "the great inland sea at the heart of the grasslands". Can't say if it has to do with the Others. But the Dothraki...

The grasslands were the kingdoms Sarnor. But Khal Mengo, his son Khal Moro, and other Khal after them, destroyed all the kingdoms during the Century of Blood. And not just the Sarnori:

Quote

It must not be thought that the Kingdom of Sarnor was the only victim of the horselords. The Valyrian colony Essaria, sometimes remembered as the Lost Free City, was similarly overwhelmed. Today its ruins are known to the Dothraki as Vaes Khadokh, the City of Corpses. In the north, Khal Dhako sacked and burned Ibbish, reclaiming most of the small foothold the men of Ib had carved out on the northern coast of Essos (a much smaller Ibbenese colony survives in the dense forests beside the Shivering Sea, huddled around the town they have named New Ibbish). In the south, other khals led their hordes into the Red Waste, destroying the Qaathi towns and cities that once dotted that desert, until only the great city of Qarth remained, protected by its towering triple wall.