Do you think that the fact Jaime, Tyrion and even Tywin (to an extent) are beloved by the fandom while Cersei is hated indicates some sexism?

[frenin]

6 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

No you don't know.

I don't deny he liked it. He often thinks "she’s been fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and Moon Boy for all I know". I don't deny he started it sometimes. But she was expecting it. It was she who went to him, to convince him to come to KL and become a KG. It took her all the night. And in her childhood memories, she is always pushing Jaime to challenges, to darings. She says it was him, not her, who should wear the gown. She always had the control.

BTW, I rather enjoyed them fucking on Joffrey's corpse. Thought it kind of "well deserved".

She certainly wasn't expecting being forced to have sex in front of her firstborn's corpse. And it was him who iniatiated the encounter which lead to Bran's assasination attempt. 

You're painting Jaime as a drone. That's one of the arguments i dislikke the most when it comes to the twins dynamics. In order to absolve Jaime, he has to be this useful idiot without any agency whatsoever.

Both share the control. They always have.

 

 

6 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Who was the worst is subjective. There is no point arguing about it. Otherwise would be only ranting.

Weren't arguing about that. But about whether Cersei has a justification for her actions, the one you wanted to give Tywin. 

 

6 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

??? I don't work like you.

Certainly,  you enjoyed them banging in front of Joffrey. No kink shame, We like what we like.

[BalerionTheCat]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

And it was him who iniatiated the encounter which lead to Bran's assasination attempt

You absolutely don't know that. We just have them during the act.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

In order to absolve Jaime, he has to be this useful idiot without any agency whatsoever.

I don't absolve him of everything. But in the dynamic between the 2, he really looks the idiot.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Certainly,  you enjoyed them banging in front of Joffrey. No kink shame, We like what we like.

I don't like them. But I really hated Joffrey. Petty thing I agree.

[frenin]

On 10/16/2022 at 9:28 PM, BalerionTheCat said:

You absolutely don't know that. We just have them during the act.

We kinda do...

 

Quote

“A man who would violate his own sister, murder his king, and fling an innocent child to his death deserves no other name.” Innocent? The wretched boy was spying on us. All Jaime had wanted was an hour alone with Cersei. Their journey north had been one long torment; seeing her every day, unable to touch her, knowing that Robert stumbled drunkenly into her bed every night in that great creaking wheelhouse. Tyrion had done his best to keep him in a good humor, but it had not been enough. “You will be courteous as concerns Cersei, wench,” he warned her.

 

 

On 10/16/2022 at 9:28 PM, BalerionTheCat said:

I don't absolve him of everything. But in the dynamic between the 2, he really looks the idiot.

Then it obviously absolves him, not having the leading voice and being a drone without will are two different things.

The femme fatale enticing our unwilling hero to kill childrem. It does soound sexist.

 

 

[Equilibrium]

First of all I resent the idea behind this topic, it's either trolling or seriously condescending and intellectually lazy. Discussing sexism of the characters in the form of character analysis is valid pursuit. Discussing sexism of GRRM in his writing has some merit in the feminist literary criticism sort of way, especially given that much of the feminism devolved into essentially Derridian and particularly obscurantist form of literary criticism. But discussing purported sexism of the fans, not one particular fan based on his writings, but like all of them as some nebulous entity is pointless at best and insulting, harmful and traumatizing at the worst.

I will be more than benevolent, assume good faith and give the answer as pertaining to myself, she killed Lady and Lady was a good girl and did nothing wrong, chance of redemption zero.

[Craving Peaches]

You can look at objective statistics to determine that Cersei is the worst out of herself, Jaime and Tyrion.

Number of babies killed:

Jaime: 0

Tyrion: 0

Cersei: >0

Number of Women sent to Qyburn:

Jaime: 0

Tyrion: 0

Cersei: >0

Number of 'friends' pushed down wells:

Jaime: 0

Tyrion: 0

Cersei: >0

Seriously though, Cersei has killed at least 3 newborn or close to newborn babies, Barra and the twins at Casterly Rock. She has had harmless, innocent babies, who have done no wrong to her, murdered out of jealously and spite. I have no sympathy for her at all.

[sifth]

3 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

You can look at objective statistics to determine that Cersei is the worst out of herself, Jaime and Tyrion.

Number of babies killed:

Jaime: 0

Tyrion: 0

Cersei: >0

Number of Women sent to Qyburn:

Jaime: 0

Tyrion: 0

Cersei: >0

Number of 'friends' pushed down wells:

Jaime: 0

Tyrion: 0

Cersei: >0

Seriously though, Cersei has killed at least 3 newborn or close to newborn babies, Barra and the twins at Casterly Rock. She has had harmless, innocent babies, who have done no wrong to her, murdered out of jealously and spite. I have no sympathy for her at all.

I mean her father killed kids though. She really is daddy’s little girl, in the worst kind of way.

[Craving Peaches]

4 minutes ago, sifth said:

I mean her father killed kids though. She really is daddy’s little girl, in the worst kind of way.

I didn't include Tywin because I'm not sure exactly how many children he killed. But with Cersei we know it was three babies at the very least. Even Ramsay (so far and to the best of my knowledge) hasn't killed any babies.

[sifth]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

I didn't include Tywin because I'm not sure exactly how many children he killed. But with Cersei we know it was three babies at the very least. Even Ramsay (so far and to the best of my knowledge) hasn't killed any babies.

Rhaegar’s children we know for certain. He used their corpses as a peace offering to Robert. 

[Craving Peaches]

16 minutes ago, sifth said:

Rhaegar’s children we know for certain. He used their corpses as a peace offering to Robert. 

That is two children so far compared to Cersei's three. I suspect there are more because he wiped out all the Reynes and Tarbecks. But those numbers would not be exact. At any rate I think my original point, that Cersei is worse than Jaime and Tyrion in terms of number of babies killed, is still valid.

[frenin]

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I didn't include Tywin because I'm not sure exactly how many children he killed. But with Cersei we know it was three babies at the very least. Even Ramsay (so far and to the best of my knowledge) hasn't killed any babies.

Jaime tried to kill both Arya and Bran.

He's certainly not a nice fella.

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, frenin said:

Jaime tried to kill both Arya and Bran.

He's certainly not a nice fella.

I don't think he's nice either I just think he is better than Cersei. He tried to murder two children. Cersei did murder multiple babies. Both aren't very nice people but I think Cersei is worse.

[sifth]

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Jaime tried to kill both Arya and Bran.

He's certainly not a nice fella.

When did he try to kill Arya?

[frenin]

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't think he's nice either I just think he is better than Cersei. He tried to murder two children. Cersei did murder multiple babies. Both aren't very nice people but I think Cersei is worse.

Eh.

 

3 minutes ago, sifth said:

When did he try to kill Arya?

In AFFC he comes clean to Payne and tells him that after the Lady incident, while he was fucking Cersei, she said "I want her" or something like that. Jaime inferred that those words meant that she wanted Arya dead. Thus he set out to find and kill her. 

 

Nice chap.

[sifth]

2 minutes ago, frenin said:

Eh.

 

In AFFC he comes clean to Payne and tells him that after the Lady incident, while he was fucking Cersei, she said "I want her" or something like that. Jaime inferred that those words meant that she wanted Arya dead. Thus he set out to find and kill her. 

 

Nice chap.

I’ll have to reread that book some day, I honestly don’t remember.

If nothing else Jamie is at least trying to redeem himself, while his sister is more evil than ever. If the story follows the show, she’s about to blow up quite a lot of people soon.

[frenin]

Eh.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

6 hours ago, Equilibrium said:

First of all I resent the idea behind this topic, it's either trolling or seriously condescending and intellectually lazy. Discussing sexism of the characters in the form of character analysis is valid pursuit. Discussing sexism of GRRM in his writing has some merit in the feminist literary criticism sort of way, especially given that much of the feminism devolved into essentially Derridian and particularly obscurantist form of literary criticism. But discussing purported sexism of the fans, not one particular fan based on his writings, but like all of them as some nebulous entity is pointless at best and insulting, harmful and traumatizing at the worst.

Traumatizing? Please explain.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

4 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

You can look at objective statistics to determine that Cersei is the worst out of herself, Jaime and Tyrion.

For fairness, the score should include points for: murder, attempted murder, and rape, among other things.

[sifth]

34 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

For fairness, the score should include points for: murder, attempted murder, and rape, among other things.

Cercie is still guilty of all of those things. 

[Jon Fossoway]

On 10/16/2022 at 3:53 PM, frenin said:

 

You're painting Jaime as a drone. That's one of the arguments i dislikke the most when it comes to the twins dynamics. In order to absolve Jaime, he has to be this useful idiot without any agency whatsoever.

 

I don't think he is a drone but what is exactly his agency? Cersei has ambitions and does fight to pave her way towards them. She fights to protect her children. She becomes murderous, decieving and sometimes stupid, but always in pursuit of something else. She can succeed or fail miserably, but she IS moving towards something. Jaime, at the start of the series, is a complete hollow character for me. And frankly, his "redemption arc" becomes a bit tiresome and redundant.  

[Equilibrium]

52 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Traumatizing? Please explain.

Given that being sexist is considered evil, saying someone is a sexist can be traumatizing. If they were really being sexist, screw them, right, but if they aren't you could have traumatized an innocent person. You can't police what traumatizes people, but you can abstain from making spurious accusations based on biased and superfluous analysis.