Daenerys Targaryen is a better leader than Jon Snow.

[Oana_Mika]

7 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

But isn't Eddard well-known for not killing children?

It was ment as he still has Stark blood in him, even if he is a green boy and a bastard, thus he can do what Kings of Winter did. That's why he thinks  "Ask Janos Slynt."

Edited December 24, 2022 by Oana_Mika

[Corvo the Crow]

31 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

BTW @Corvo the Crow, while you are crying about Dany allegedly killing children, this is how Jon responds : 

 

 

"None but them whose sires displeased the Kings o' Winter," said The Norrey. "Those came home shorter by a head. So you tell me, boy … if these wildling friends o' yours prove false, do you have the belly to do what needs be done?"

Ask Janos Slynt. "Tormund Giantsbane knows better than to try me. I may seem a green boy in your eyes, Lord Norrey, but I am still a son of Eddard Stark." - A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI

Lol? First, there's no "allegedly" Dany orders deaths of everyone wearing a tokar, practically every freeborn, with the exception of those under 12.  Not even comparable to Dany's action that we are discussing.If Jon attacks, say, Hardhome and kills all the wildling children, come compare then. But you know what? It is comparable to something that Dany does. Taking wards from the Wise Master families of Meereen. When push comes to shove, Dany doesn't kill the wards that she takes, which only serves to embolden the slavers, causing more harm. Killing wards is bad, but considered a norm in that society, should Jon kill a ward, I won't like him for it unlike Dany cheerleaders that approve of her killing the children of good masters.

[Corvo the Crow]

54 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

And please, don't cry that much about "one dimentional evil slavers" when you are defending them.

Forgive me if I won't tolerate such bullshit slander. I didn't defend them, pointing out the wrongs a character has done isn't defending the wronged party, and the wrong party being bad doesn't necessarily make the character that has wronged them and the act they've done good, which is apparently something quite a lot of people here are incapable of understanding. When you are able to differentiate the two, please feel free to continue but until then, forgive me if I won't grace you with an answer.

Edited December 24, 2022 by Corvo the Crow

[Oana_Mika]

18 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Lol? First, there's no "allegedly" Dany orders deaths of everyone wearing a tokar, practically every freeborn, with the exception of those under 12. 

The tokar was a master's garment, a sign of wealth and power. - A Dance with Dragons -Daenerys I

Again "harm no child under 12" =/= "kill everyone over 11"

 

12 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Forgive me if I won't tolerate such bullshit slander. I didn't defend them, pointing out the wrongs a character has done isn't defending the wronged party, and the wrong party being bad doesn't necessarily make the character that has wronged them and the act they've done good, which is apparently something quite a lot of people here are incapable of understanding. When you are able to differentiate the two, please feel free to continue but until then, forgive me if I won't grace you with an answer.

If the cape fits, wear it. You are here excusing the master's atrocities done to Astapor and blame it on Dany.

Edited December 24, 2022 by Oana_Mika

[SeanF]

32 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Lol? First, there's no "allegedly" Dany orders deaths of everyone wearing a tokar, practically every freeborn, with the exception of those under 12.  Not even comparable to Dany's action that we are discussing.If Jon attacks, say, Hardhome and kills all the wildling children, come compare then. But you know what? It is comparable to something that Dany does. Taking wards from the Wise Master families of Meereen. When push comes to shove, Dany doesn't kill the wards that she takes, which only serves to embolden the slavers, causing more harm. Killing wards is bad, but considered a norm in that society, should Jon kill a ward, I won't like him for it unlike Dany cheerleaders that approve of her killing the children of good masters.

Well, for a start, if there are freedmen in Astapor, (and there are in other slave cities),  that would be one part of the free population that is unaffected by the order.  They are not permitted to wear a garment that is restricted to the free*born*.

We also know that is a “master’s garment”, for “those who do not work.”  So, there were won’t be free workers, or paupers, wearing it.  We know that in other slave cities, there is a class of free workers.  Qavo even refers to a free beggar still thinking himself better than a slave.

however, the vast majority are slaves.

That leaves it as an order to kill the elite, plus their overseers, plus their soldiers, of whom, some are teenagers.Teenage soldiers and squires frequently fight and are killed in Westeros.

An order to kill the elite and their enforcers is in no way comparable to an order to kill Robert’s children or wildling children.

 

Edited December 24, 2022 by SeanF

[Oana_Mika]

22 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

should Jon kill a ward, I won't like him for it unlike Dany cheerleaders that approve of her killing the children of good masters.

I don't cheer child murders or child murderers (unlike you who seem to be ok with Rhaego's death - an unborn baby). I simply point out how that order was to spare children, not to kill them. So you painting Dany as killing children is fallacious.

Edited December 24, 2022 by Oana_Mika

[Corvo the Crow]

3 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

I don't cheer child murders or child murderers (unlike you who seem to be ok with Rhaego's death - an unborn baby).

Lol? Are you being serious? And where have I said I'm ok with Rhaego's death? I said poor innocent rhaego, because she was killed by Mirri the blood mage. Dude you are either some of those hateful Dany trolls or clearly are unable to understand what you read to interpret it in this ways. If it's the latter, I'm very sorry for you, you really must be having a hard time in your day to day life but please, I want nothing to do with it either way so kindly stop bothering me if you are going to continue like this.

[Oana_Mika]

8 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Lol? Are you being serious? And where have I said I'm ok with Rhaego's death? I said poor innocent rhaego, because she was killed by Mirri the blood mage. Dude you are either some of those hateful Dany trolls or clearly are unable to understand what you read to interpret it in this ways. If it's the latter, I'm very sorry for you, you really must be having a hard time in your day to day life but please, I want nothing to do with it either way so kindly stop bothering me if you are going to continue like this.

No need to slander my intelligence to say you did not mean sarcastically "poor Rhaego" ,which can't surprise you that I took it that way due to your trolls and slander of the character. If you ment it seriously, then I apologize for thinking otherwise.

Edited December 24, 2022 by Oana_Mika

[Corvo the Crow]

49 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

No need to slander my intelligence to say you did not mean ironically "poor Rhaego" ,which can't surprise you that I took it that way due to your trolls and slander of the character. If you ment it seriously, then I apologize for thinking otherwise.

Sorry but you slandered it yourself when you suggested I am defending the slavers. Seriously, how hard it is to understand bad done to bad people does not necessarily equal good even if it's done by the hero character? The fact that I do a bit of trolling in response to all those hateful Dany trolls doesn't mean a) that I'm trolling all the time and b) it makes everything I say automatically untrue, even if it's a troll post. again a slander of your intelligence done by your own since you act like this. A truth said by the wrong person doesn't make it any less true.

Did Daenerys unrightfully invade Slaver's bay? Yes! Mind you being in your rights to a title is very important in universe, makes an important plot point for many of the arcs and especially for Dany's character as well since she sees herself the blood of the dragon, rightful owner of the Iron Chair, wants to take it killig the "usurper dogs" and on and on. Did Dany commit genocide? Yes. Do I feel bad that the slavers got invaded and killed? Nope, not in the least bit. But does it still make it a genocide? Yes, for fuck's sake it is a fucking genocide.

 

This is the UN definition of Genocide

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

1. Killing members of the group;
2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

United Nations Office on Genocide Prevention and the Responsibility to Protect

Intent to destroy in whole or in part. Since the world building is so poor that we don't get to see a working class of Ghiscari(though Meereen is supposed to have slums) Dany intents to destroy  the whole lot of the Ghiscari. 

She kills members of the group above 12 (again, no such thing as a working class Ghiscari with even middle class jobs done by slaves) so a. is a check. Since adults are killed, an automatic check on e. as well. 

She leaves the rule of the city to slaves who know nothing about it, immediately start tearing eachother's throats  so a check on c. is possible but let's give her a pass and say she never intended it.

The last male members of the freeborn are castrated. a solid check on d. and b. but I'll give her a pass on d as well since she wasn't the one ordering the castrations but can't do so for b.

 

This is the Merriam Webster definition of it

the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group.

Ghiscari are a racial group and from what we've been shown so far, all their cities are slaver cities. Astapori are a cultural group and believe it or not, whereas the westerosi in a huge wide continent only have different accents, these guys in three different cities have different dialects. Even the fact that one city naming themselves good masters, the other wise masters and the final great masters would be different culture with GRRM's world building poor as it is, but these guys have more than the different accents of the Westerosi, they have different dialects, different customs(kind of slaves they train and sell, among other things) etc

Genocide Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster

 

So again, no, intent to destroy in part or whole, Dany has the intent to destroy whole and has already wiped out (though final nail in the coffin wasn't hers, the coffin was). The fact that she didn't kill all of them doesn't mean it wasn't a genocide. Though millions of them were murdered, many jews survived the holocaust, should we say "oh look there are survivors this can't be a genocide". Hell I come from genocide survivors as well. I am, in part, caucasian (I mean the caucaus mountains not the stupid classification that is still able to persist), my ancestors some 150 years ago escaped the caucaus and survived the "Circassian genocide" of the Russians. Should we say "oh no there was no such thing as a Circassian Genocide if there were, how do you even exist?  and look there are even some left who still live there" when at a minimum %80(estimates go as high as %97) of the entire population died?

Circassian genocide - Wikipedia

 

Go blame GRRM for his world building being so he makes a whole race of people composed of only slavers when some liberator comes to destroy them that he/she has to commit genocide for it, not me for pointing out that what's being done would be considered genocide in real world.

Edited December 24, 2022 by Corvo the Crow

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Oana_Mika said:

The tokar was a master's garment, a sign of wealth and power. - A Dance with Dragons -Daenerys I

Again "harm no child under 12" =/= "kill everyone over 11"

 

If the cape fits, wear it. You are here excusing the master's atrocities done to Astapor and blame it on Dany.

“But go to town and slaughter all children older than 12” is the unsaid& very clear  part here.

As to taking hostages/wards, both Jon & Dany have done it, and so far not one has been killed. 

[kissdbyfire]

3 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

@Corvo the Crow painting a slave revolution as invasion and fighting the slavers as genocide only shows what a clown you are.

No need to get personal and insult people just because you don’t agree w/ them. 

[Oana_Mika]

4 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

“But go to town and slaughter all children older than 12” is the unsaid& very clear  part here.

The order was to spare the children. Given the fact that the usullied had no way to determine everyone's age, is safe to assume they just spare children.

Edited December 24, 2022 by Oana_Mika

[Corvo the Crow]

10 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

@Corvo the Crow painting a slave revolution as invasion and fighting the slavers (i.e : people that uphold an institution based on exploiting people) as genocide only shows what a clown you are. Dany and the slaves are fightung against an injustice system, not against people with different etnicities. As others have told you, freeing the usullied =/= genocide.

Lol incapable of any answer but insults. 

[SeanF]

31 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Sorry but you slandered it yourself when you suggested I am defending the slavers. Seriously, how hard it is to understand bad done to bad people does not necessarily equal good even if it's done by the hero character? The fact that I do a bit of trolling in response to all those hateful Dany trolls doesn't mean a) that I'm trolling all the time and b) it makes everything I say automatically untrue, even if it's a troll post. again a slander of your intelligence done by your own since you act like this. A truth said by the wrong person doesn't make it any less true.

Did Daenerys unrightfully invade Slaver's bay? Yes! Mind you being in your rights to a title is very important in universe, makes an important plot point for many of the arcs and especially for Dany's character as well since she sees herself the blood of the dragon, rightful owner of the Iron Chair, wants to take it killig the "usurper dogs" and on and on. Did Dany commit genocide? Yes. Do I feel bad that the slavers got invaded and killed? Nope, not in the least bit. But does it still make it a genocide? Yes, for fuck's sake it is a fucking genocide.

 

This is the UN definition of Genocide

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

1. Killing members of the group;
2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

United Nations Office on Genocide Prevention and the Responsibility to Protect

Intent to destroy in whole or in part. Since the world building is so poor that we don't get to see a working class of Ghiscari(though Meereen is supposed to have slums) Dany intents to destroy  the whole lot of the Ghiscari. 

She kills members of the group above 12 (again, no such thing as a working class Ghiscari with even middle class jobs done by slaves) so a. is a check. Since adults are killed, an automatic check on e. as well. 

She leaves the rule of the city to slaves who know nothing about it, immediately start tearing eachother's throats  so a check on c. is possible but let's give her a pass and say she never intended it.

The last male members of the freeborn are castrated. a solid check on d. and b. but I'll give her a pass on d as well since she wasn't the one ordering the castrations but can't do so for b.

 

This is the Merriam Webster definition of it

the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group.

Ghiscari are a racial group and from what we've been shown so far, all their cities are slaver cities. Astapori are a cultural group and believe it or not, whereas the westerosi in a huge wide continent only have different accents, these guys in three different cities have different dialects. Even the fact that one city naming themselves good masters, the other wise masters and the final great masters would be different culture with GRRM's world building poor as it is, but these guys have more than the different accents of the Westerosi, they have different dialects, different customs(kind of slaves they train and sell, among other things) etc

Genocide Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster

 

So again, no, intent to destroy in part or whole, Dany has the intent to destroy whole and has already wiped out (though final nail in the coffin wasn't hers, the coffin was). The fact that she didn't kill all of them doesn't mean it wasn't a genocide. Though millions of them were murdered, many jews survived the holocaust, should we say "oh look there are survivors this can't be a genocide". Hell I come from genocide survivors as well. I am, in part, caucasian (I mean the caucaus mountains not the stupid classification that is still able to persist), my ancestors some 150 years ago escaped the caucaus and survived the "Circassian genocide" of the Russians. Should we say "oh no there was no such thing as a Circassian Genocide if there were, how do you even exist?  and look there are even some left who still live there" when at a minimum %80(estimates go as high as %97) of the entire population died?

Circassian genocide - Wikipedia

 

Go blame GRRM for his world building being so he makes a whole race of people composed of only slavers when some liberator comes to destroy them that he/she has to commit genocide for it, not me for pointing out that what's being done would be considered genocide in real world.

Killing traffickers of people, their soldiers, and their overseers, only amounts to genocide in your own imagination.  They do not amount to an ethnic, religious, or racial group.

By your definition, Nat Turner, John Brown, and Toussaint L’Ouverture were all practising genocide.

You cannot exclude slaves or freedmen or free workers from being a part of the local population, in order to invent a genocide.

 

Edited December 24, 2022 by SeanF

[Oana_Mika]

6 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

No need to get personal and insult people just because you don’t agree w/ them. 

If they don't insult my intelligence and pretend to not know the difference between revolution and invasion, it's all great 

[Craving Peaches]

25 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

my ancestors some 150 years ago escaped the caucaus and survived the "Circassian genocide" of the Russians. Should we say "oh no there was no such thing as a Circassian Genocide if there were, how do you even exist?  and look there are even some left who still live there" when at a minimum %80(estimates go as high as %97) of the entire population died?

Circassian genocide - Wikipedia

Oh God. This is horrific. Why is Georgia the only country to recognise it?

[SeanF]

8 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

No need to get personal and insult people just because you don’t agree w/ them. 

In this case, it’s fair comment.  The use of violence to free slaves fits no definition of “genocide”.

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Oana_Mika said:

The order was to spare the children. Guven the fact that the usullied had no way to determine everyone's ahe, is sage to assime they just spare children.

No, the order was to spare children younger than 12. It’s right there, spelled out in the text and yet you’re twisting it into a pretzel so it fits w/ what you want it to be to support your argument. 

[kissdbyfire]

3 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

If they don't insult my intelligence and pretend to not know the difference between revolution and invasion, it's all great 

I see, not a fan of Michelle Obama. 

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

In this case, it’s fair comment.  The use of violence to free slaves fits no definition of “genocide”.

This doesn’t sound like you. I’m not disputing or defending the use of genocide here. Just saying imo an ad hominem response loses whatever merit it might have had.