Daenerys Targaryen is a better leader than Jon Snow.

[Oana_Mika]

6 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

No, the order was to spare children younger than 12. It’s right there, spelled out in the text and yet you’re twisting it into a pretzel so it fits w/ what you want it to be to support your argument. 

You are the one twisting things into pretzels (somehow the Unsullied being able to kill everyone over 11 because they somehow knew everyone's age) than to recognize that the order simply ment to spare children, thus if any unsullied saw a child, they simply spared him.

Edited December 24, 2022 by Oana_Mika

[SeanF]

13 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

This doesn’t sound like you. I’m not disputing or defending the use of genocide here. Just saying imo an ad hominem response loses whatever merit it might have had. 

Given that the author has stated that he’s trolling, when he posts about Daenerys, he cannot complain.

Genocide is very specific term, and when it is bandied about so lightly, it’s a sign of an argument being made in bad faith.

Edited December 24, 2022 by SeanF

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Oana_Mika said:

You are the one twisting things into pretzels (somehow the Unsullied being able to kill everyone over 11 because they somehow knew everyone's age) than to recognize that the order simply ment to spare children, thus if any unsullied saw a child, they simply spared him.

Wrong again. If Martin - who is very, very deliberate in what and how he writes - meant for Dany to mean ‘spare all children’, he would have written that, and he didn’t, 

Now, if you want to argue that figuring out who is 11 and who is 13 is going to be nearly impossible, I agree. But then that’s on Martin… Again, the point is he wrote that, and he could have written, “no child is to be harmed’ or words to that effect, and he didn’t. 

[Corvo the Crow]

13 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Oh God. This is horrific. Why is Georgia the only country to recognise it?

Probably the places that this is common knowledge are under at least some degree of Russian influence and places that aren't under influence it is not known. The fact that the affected regions are still mostly under Russian rule today and those who have left have mostly been assimilated also helps I guess for example, like I said, I'm only part caucasian through my grandmother's grandfather and I only learned about coincidentally because they were discussing something about family, she didn't consider herself caucasian either, her mother, as far as I know, not being one and her father being assimilated. I did know about it before that as well though because of my interest in history and frankly I can say learning that I am descended from these groups didn't change my views on this, because I saw it as something horrible even before I learned that, which is the way it should be seen.

Edited December 24, 2022 by Corvo the Crow

[SeanF]

Daenerys’ fault at Astapor was not installing a garrison to support the ruling council.

It was not turning the Unsullied on the elite or liberating 54,000 people (thousands of them, children).

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

Daenerys’ fault at Astapor was not installing a garrison to support the ruling council.

It was not turning the Unsullied on the elite or liberating 54,000 people (thousands of them, children).

I don’t agree w/ and don’t like the killing of children 12+, but I agree with what you said here. 

[Oana_Mika]

18 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Wrong again. If Martin - who is very, very deliberate in what and how he writes - meant for Dany to mean ‘spare all children’, he would have written that, and he didn’t, 

Now, if you want to argue that figuring out who is 11 and who is 13 is going to be nearly impossible, I agree. But then that’s on Martin… Again, the point is he wrote that, and he could have written, “no child is to be harmed’ or words to that effect, and he didn’t. 

Martin showed Daenerys as refusing to kill children so sorry if those instances do not align with your argument here.

The fact that the statement "under twelve" is made is not to show her as a child murderer but to showcast how young the protagonists are (Dany herself was around 15 at that point) and how brutal his world is, given the fact that boys younger that 16 can fight and go to wars.

Edited December 24, 2022 by Oana_Mika

[SeanF]

The tokar is a garment similar to the toga virilis.

Once a Roman upper class boy assumed the toga virilis, he legally became a man.  Among other things, he became liable to execution.  A boy could not lawfully be executed.

Edited December 24, 2022 by SeanF

[Texas Hold Em]

On 12/21/2022 at 12:32 PM, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Merry Chrismas.  May the Lord bless you and keep your family safe during this holiday season.  

Daenerys Targaryen is a better ruler and leader than Jon Snow.  We are all familiar with their leadership styles.  There is enough information for us to pass judgment on who the better leader is.  I will start with Jon Snow.

Jon Snow

Jon is far from the worst leader in A Song of Ice and Fire.  He is actually capable most of the time.  His biggest strength as a leader is his ability to teach.  Jon was able to teach the other less-fortunate cadets the proper use of the sword in combat.  Yes, he was an arrogant and entitled fool when he arrived.  A little man to man talk with a seasoned man helped open his eyes.  Many of the fans praise Jon for protecting the craven cadet, Samwell Tarly.  It is a well-earned praise.  Samwell would have died from fright if Jon had not stepped in and helped. 

I have established that Jon Snow is basically an average guy who has had good training in the fighting arts.  As a leader, he is usually capable of performing his job.  However, he has big problems beneath his exterior.  Many of the fans have already brought it up repeatedly.   Jon has a chip on his shoulders.  Push that chip and he goes ballistic.  He is guilty of attacking Ser Alliser Thorne, a man of higher rank and status.  He has anger management issues which culminated in the inappropriate way in which he judged two guilty men, Janos Slynt and Mance Rayder.  By every laws of the land, it should have been the deserter and traitor, Mance Rayder, who was executed.  Matters went downhill from there.  He sent the deserter and turncloak to bring his sister to him at the Wall.  This is an act of war against Roose and Ramsay Bolton.  The Night's Watch should never, and never has until now, make war against the people of The Seven Kingdoms. 

I served in the military for a significant part of my early adult life.  I have never been tested in the same way as Jon was with Arya.  I will say there are a lot of men who would do as Jon did.  They would forsake their duties, no matter how critical it is, to save their sisters.  But there are still more who would do their duties and accept that they cannot help their sisters.  For proof, you only have to look at those men who are in the business of rescuing and saving people and property.  Many men would rather be at home with their families during an emergency crisis but instead they stay at their posts and do their jobs.  I knew people who went to Kuwait while they had desperate families back home.  Parents battling cancer.  Wives struggling to raise handicapped children alone.  I could go on and on.  The point is, it is not unreasonable nor is it rare for people to do their jobs even when they have critical family concerns back home.  And those men who can't do this should never be in command.  It's fine for desk jockey to always sacrifice his duties for his families.  But that is not acceptable for a commander of an organization who has been tasked with the protection of the kingdom from an existential threat. 

Quorin Halfhand said something in book 2.  He said of Mance Rayder, he was the best and the worst of us.  He had trouble obeying.  Jon is very much like Mance Rayder.  In many ways, he is the ideal black brother.  But he is also the worst possible.  Jon is a man gifted with martial skills.  He is a smart young man who usually makes sound decisions.  I don't think his inability to judge and prioritize will matter much with the Wildlings.  To the Free Folk, whatever the strong man says is right is right.  Might makes right with the Wildlings.  Jon does not have to be fair, nor consistent.  Laws among the Wildlings are not as well-defined. 

Daenerys Targaryen

Princess Daenerys Targaryen began the story a scared and nervous young girl.  Forced to marry into an alien culture, she used her natural intelligence to thrive.  Courage, intelligence, and determination allowed her to adapt to the Dothraki culture.  She brought the dragons back from extinction.  She had the smarts and the courage to lead her khalasar beyond the Red Waste until they reached Vaes Tolorro.  This is nothing less than remarkable for a girl of her age.  She defeated the Undying in the Palace of Dust with the help of her dragon, Drogon.  Over and over, Daenerys has managed to use her intelligence and her cunning to outmaneuver her adversaries.  She has become a very good player of the game of thrones with a style all her own. 

Queen Daenerys has become the conqueror and the ruler of the slaver city of Meereen.  She knows what we know.  As humans, we have a responsibility to make laws and judge the guilty.  The Meereenese masters perpetrated the most heinous war crime in the entire saga so far.  This is many times more heinous than the Red Wedding in The Twins.  The masters crucified the children of their slaves and used them to decorate the road to the city.  This kind of crime cannot go unpunished.  To do so would be to deny justice to those children.  Allowing the Meereenese to bring forth the guilty is a modern concept of peers judging peers.  It is certainly preferable to the arbitrary trial of combat being practiced in Westeros.  She is facing an enemy who refuse to fight her troops in open combat.  And yet, she refused to execute her cup bearers.  This was a smart move.  Those children can be socialized and educated away from their slaver parents.  These children will be the foundation of a free Slaver's Bay. 

The situation in Meereen is very complicated.  Skahaz, Reznak, and Hizdahr are unreliable allies.  Daenerys has been warned to be careful by Quaithe.  Yet, she reacts with reason and caution.  Cersei would have had them all killed.  But a good leader knows that you have to trust people.  Everything carries a risk.  One person cannot manage a city of the size of Meereen.  Jorah's betrayal is revealed.  Daenerys wisely did not kill the man and instead sent him into exile.  Daenerys is a reflective, thoughtful person.  Which is a good quality for someone who has to make decisions.  She has some learning to do but her potential as a ruler is without limits.  I would choose her to rule Westeros.  

I have always been impressed with Dany from the time she jumped her horse over the fire pit on her wedding day.  I knew then she is very special.  She is a better leader.  It doesn't mean Jon was bad at it but Dany is better.  

[SeanF]

The same criticism can be made of Jon and Dany.  They both resort to half-measures, when they should have gone in balls deep.

Dany should have struck the slavers down so hard and far that they can never threaten the freedmen again.  Jon should have just accepted from the start that NW neutrality is a dead letter and backed Stannis completely.

In fact, he ought to have taken Stannis’ offer of Winterfell and Val.

[Only 89 selfies today]

Much better.  Daenerys is much better at ruling compared to Jon.  Jon has done so much damage to the NW that poor Marsh and Thorne will have a hard time sorting things out. 

[Rondo]

Jon should have been removed and tried soon after he killed Janos Slynt.  That would have saved a lot of trouble for the watch.  

17 hours ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

Much better.  Daenerys is much better at ruling compared to Jon.  Jon has done so much damage to the NW that poor Marsh and Thorne will have a hard time sorting things out. 

 

[Aline de Gavrillac]

On 12/21/2022 at 1:00 PM, Rondo said:

Jon was a very bad choice to fill the shoes of Lord Commander.  He should have stayed at training the recruits. 

Jon was assigned to the stewards and that is a good place where the officers can keep watch over him.  He was just too arrogant to appreciate it. 

On 12/21/2022 at 1:00 PM, Rondo said:

Daenerys will become a fine ruler for the people of Westeros.  

She will be.  There will be few of the Westerosi left after the war of the five kings.  I believe they will have to cross over and migrate to Essos where Daenerys will begin a new Great Empire. 

[sifth]

To be fair, Dany's generals actually seem loyal to her. That actually does help.

[Moiraine Sedai]

5 hours ago, sifth said:

To be fair, Dany's generals actually seem loyal to her. That actually does help.

Dany is deserving of loyalty.  

[The Lord of the Crossing]

On 12/21/2022 at 9:32 AM, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Merry Chrismas.  May the Lord bless you and keep your family safe during this holiday season.  

Daenerys Targaryen is a better ruler and leader than Jon Snow.  We are all familiar with their leadership styles.  There is enough information for us to pass judgment on who the better leader is.  I will start with Jon Snow.

Jon Snow

Jon is far from the worst leader in A Song of Ice and Fire.  He is actually capable most of the time.  His biggest strength as a leader is his ability to teach.  Jon was able to teach the other less-fortunate cadets the proper use of the sword in combat.  Yes, he was an arrogant and entitled fool when he arrived.  A little man to man talk with a seasoned man helped open his eyes.  Many of the fans praise Jon for protecting the craven cadet, Samwell Tarly.  It is a well-earned praise.  Samwell would have died from fright if Jon had not stepped in and helped. 

I have established that Jon Snow is basically an average guy who has had good training in the fighting arts.  As a leader, he is usually capable of performing his job.  However, he has big problems beneath his exterior.  Many of the fans have already brought it up repeatedly.   Jon has a chip on his shoulders.  Push that chip and he goes ballistic.  He is guilty of attacking Ser Alliser Thorne, a man of higher rank and status.  He has anger management issues which culminated in the inappropriate way in which he judged two guilty men, Janos Slynt and Mance Rayder.  By every laws of the land, it should have been the deserter and traitor, Mance Rayder, who was executed.  Matters went downhill from there.  He sent the deserter and turncloak to bring his sister to him at the Wall.  This is an act of war against Roose and Ramsay Bolton.  The Night's Watch should never, and never has until now, make war against the people of The Seven Kingdoms. 

I served in the military for a significant part of my early adult life.  I have never been tested in the same way as Jon was with Arya.  I will say there are a lot of men who would do as Jon did.  They would forsake their duties, no matter how critical it is, to save their sisters.  But there are still more who would do their duties and accept that they cannot help their sisters.  For proof, you only have to look at those men who are in the business of rescuing and saving people and property.  Many men would rather be at home with their families during an emergency crisis but instead they stay at their posts and do their jobs.  I knew people who went to Kuwait while they had desperate families back home.  Parents battling cancer.  Wives struggling to raise handicapped children alone.  I could go on and on.  The point is, it is not unreasonable nor is it rare for people to do their jobs even when they have critical family concerns back home.  And those men who can't do this should never be in command.  It's fine for desk jockey to always sacrifice his duties for his families.  But that is not acceptable for a commander of an organization who has been tasked with the protection of the kingdom from an existential threat. 

Quorin Halfhand said something in book 2.  He said of Mance Rayder, he was the best and the worst of us.  He had trouble obeying.  Jon is very much like Mance Rayder.  In many ways, he is the ideal black brother.  But he is also the worst possible.  Jon is a man gifted with martial skills.  He is a smart young man who usually makes sound decisions.  I don't think his inability to judge and prioritize will matter much with the Wildlings.  To the Free Folk, whatever the strong man says is right is right.  Might makes right with the Wildlings.  Jon does not have to be fair, nor consistent.  Laws among the Wildlings are not as well-defined. 

Daenerys Targaryen

Princess Daenerys Targaryen began the story a scared and nervous young girl.  Forced to marry into an alien culture, she used her natural intelligence to thrive.  Courage, intelligence, and determination allowed her to adapt to the Dothraki culture.  She brought the dragons back from extinction.  She had the smarts and the courage to lead her khalasar beyond the Red Waste until they reached Vaes Tolorro.  This is nothing less than remarkable for a girl of her age.  She defeated the Undying in the Palace of Dust with the help of her dragon, Drogon.  Over and over, Daenerys has managed to use her intelligence and her cunning to outmaneuver her adversaries.  She has become a very good player of the game of thrones with a style all her own. 

Queen Daenerys has become the conqueror and the ruler of the slaver city of Meereen.  She knows what we know.  As humans, we have a responsibility to make laws and judge the guilty.  The Meereenese masters perpetrated the most heinous war crime in the entire saga so far.  This is many times more heinous than the Red Wedding in The Twins.  The masters crucified the children of their slaves and used them to decorate the road to the city.  This kind of crime cannot go unpunished.  To do so would be to deny justice to those children.  Allowing the Meereenese to bring forth the guilty is a modern concept of peers judging peers.  It is certainly preferable to the arbitrary trial of combat being practiced in Westeros.  She is facing an enemy who refuse to fight her troops in open combat.  And yet, she refused to execute her cup bearers.  This was a smart move.  Those children can be socialized and educated away from their slaver parents.  These children will be the foundation of a free Slaver's Bay. 

The situation in Meereen is very complicated.  Skahaz, Reznak, and Hizdahr are unreliable allies.  Daenerys has been warned to be careful by Quaithe.  Yet, she reacts with reason and caution.  Cersei would have had them all killed.  But a good leader knows that you have to trust people.  Everything carries a risk.  One person cannot manage a city of the size of Meereen.  Jorah's betrayal is revealed.  Daenerys wisely did not kill the man and instead sent him into exile.  Daenerys is a reflective, thoughtful person.  Which is a good quality for someone who has to make decisions.  She has some learning to do but her potential as a ruler is without limits.  I would choose her to rule Westeros.  

What I would love to see is the rebirth of an Empire under Daenerys.  Call it the new Great Empire or whatever.  She would make a fine Empress to bring the world back into order after the long winter ends. 

[Khal Rhaego Targaryen]

jon became lord commander through trickery. No one was going to vote for jon. Nobody would choose him because jon doesn't have the qualities of a leader. he was killed by his own men because he put his personal and selfish interests above the interests of the all. jon is a swordsman and the only thing he is good for is being on the battlefield with his sword being guided by a true leader like Dany.

[Khal Rhaego Targaryen]

On 12/27/2022 at 10:46 AM, sifth said:

To be fair, Dany's generals actually seem loyal to her. That actually does help.

That's what a great leader does. Inspires loyalty.

[sifth]

25 minutes ago, Khal Rhaego Targaryen said:

That's what a great leader does. Inspires loyalty.

Yea, but Dany's generals aren't former turn cloaks, rapers and murders, who are suppose to magically be reformed by taking the black.

Dany was given Barristian "the badass" Bold. The most loyal character in the series, with the only person even coming close being Ned Stark.

Edited December 31, 2022 by sifth

[The Lord of the Crossing]

3 hours ago, Khal Rhaego Targaryen said:

jon became lord commander through trickery. No one was going to vote for jon. Nobody would choose him because jon doesn't have the qualities of a leader. he was killed by his own men because he put his personal and selfish interests above the interests of the all. jon is a swordsman and the only thing he is good for is being on the battlefield with his sword being guided by a true leader like Dany.

Dany is the one better for the job of ruling.  Jon should have remained a foot soldier. 

2 hours ago, Khal Rhaego Targaryen said:

That's what a great leader does. Inspires loyalty.

That is something Dany does very well.