I am not convinced by Lemongate

[the trees have eyes]

On 4/17/2023 at 3:23 AM, Gilbert Green said:

How is it "literally the opposite"?  Under the Fake Dany theory, Viserys is not planing to use Fake Dany to continue his own line.  If he were, he probably would have married her himself, being the blood purist that he is.  Dany even notices the apparent inconsistency.

And of course Illyrio doesn't plan to use Fake Dany to continue his own line either.

Fake Arya is used to supplant and destroy the Starks not to continue their line.  She is not proposed or used by Stark loyalists. 

I think you greatly misunderstand the importance of legitimacy or blood in feudal systems if you think "Targ loyalists" would simply use a fake to try and bolster their position.  The obvious problem is when your putative ally finds out they have been duped and your word is worthless......  Cynical opportunists might use fakes, yes, but Varys and Illyrio are more likely that than "loyalists".

Do you have any examples in story or in history of regimes based on hereditary succession using fakes?  Their enemies might in order to undermine them but they don't do so themselves because blood is everything.  If they can sell their ally a pup then their ally can sell them a pup so it's anathema to their principles and system.

As to why Viserys doesn't marry Dany, the answer is obvious however unsatisfactory you find it: the author simply has no use for him and a quite different arc for her than birthing Viersys's children.

[Frey family reunion]

6 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

I think you greatly misunderstand the importance of legitimacy or blood in feudal systems if you think "Targ loyalists" would simply use a fake to try and bolster their position.  The obvious problem is when your putative ally finds out they have been duped and your word is worthless......  Cynical opportunists might use fakes, yes, but Varys and Illyrio are more likely that than "loyalists

While I sort of see what you’re getting at, it kind of misses the point, at least for my version of the theory.  So there is probably only one Targaryen loyalist back when the switch would have been made, which is Willem Darry.  It’s unlikely that either Oberyn or the Sealord of Braavos are Targaryen loyalists. 

The Martells are out for revenge, who have to have little love lost for Aerys or perhaps even Rhaegar.  And who knows what Braavos’ ultimate goals were, but I don’t ever think it’s been argued that they were Targaryen loyalists.

Darry isn’t really in a posture to negotiate.  Other than having the two children, he has nothing.  So to build an alliance he has to make a payment.  My guess is the payment was Viserys’ true sister.  So she gets pledged either to Dorne, Braavos, or to some other co-conspirator that we don’t know about, perhaps one of the other free cities.  That’s where the true marriage alliance is.

Dany is the imposter, the changeling that Oberyn gives them to dupe someone into giving them an army.  I don’t think we’re talking about a long term alliance here.  I think they consider whoever they give Dany to as expendable, as cannon fodder.

Now is this a desperate gambit?  Yes, but presumably, Darry’s not in a prime place to negotiate.  Plus the benefit of this scenario is that he’d at least believe that the true Targaryen princess is kept safe as opposed to remaining with Viserys living out in the streets begging for aid.

[Nevets]

8 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

While I sort of see what you’re getting at, it kind of misses the point, at least for my version of the theory.  So there is probably only one Targaryen loyalist back when the switch would have been made, which is Willem Darry.  It’s unlikely that either Oberyn or the Sealord of Braavos are Targaryen loyalists. 

The Martells are out for revenge, who have to have little love lost for Aerys or perhaps even Rhaegar.  And who knows what Braavos’ ultimate goals were, but I don’t ever think it’s been argued that they were Targaryen loyalists.

Darry isn’t really in a posture to negotiate.  Other than having the two children, he has nothing.  So to build an alliance he has to make a payment.  My guess is the payment was Viserys’ true sister.  So she gets pledged either to Dorne, Braavos, or to some other co-conspirator that we don’t know about, perhaps one of the other free cities.  That’s where the true marriage alliance is.

Dany is the imposter, the changeling that Oberyn gives them to dupe someone into giving them an army.  I don’t think we’re talking about a long term alliance here.  I think they consider whoever they give Dany to as expendable, as cannon fodder.

Now is this a desperate gambit?  Yes, but presumably, Darry’s not in a prime place to negotiate.  Plus the benefit of this scenario is that he’d at least believe that the true Targaryen princess is kept safe as opposed to remaining with Viserys living out in the streets begging for aid.

I fail to see the point of this.  The Dany that is not with Viserys is of no use to anyone.  She's obviously being hidden and the only thing she can do is put doubt on the other one, which is definitely not in the interest of Viserys, Darry, or any of their supporters.

If you have a second Dany, simply keep her hidden.  As long as her existence is kept closely guarded she should be safe.  And if you can't manage that you shouldn't be involved in conspiracies anyway.

[Frey family reunion]

23 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I fail to see the point of this.  The Dany that is not with Viserys is of no use to anyone.  She's obviously being hidden and the only thing she can do is put doubt on the other one, which is definitely not in the interest of Viserys, Darry, or any of their supporters.

If you have a second Dany, simply keep her hidden.  As long as her existence is kept closely guarded she should be safe.  And if you can't manage that you shouldn't be involved in conspiracies anyway.

I don’t think I see your point.  What I’m saying is that the marriage alliance has already been made with the true Targaryen Princess.  She’s like a Mona Lisa, her worth is her uniqueness.  And she’s Darry and Visery’s only true commodity.  

The question becomes, what to do after you spend your last coin?  Which in this case is Visrys’ true sister.  She’s already spent to form an alliance.  The problem is the people you are allying yourself (mainly Dorne) still need additional forces before they agree to commit to a war with the Iron Throne.  So the only thing you can do is try and sell a forgery, to raise your army.  In this case Dany’s the forgery, and Viserys job is to maker her a convincing one.

 

Edited April 19, 2023 by Frey family reunion

[Nevets]

10 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I don’t think I see your point.  What I’m saying is that the marriage alliance has already been made with the true Targaryen Princess.  She’s like a Mona Lisa, her worth is her uniqueness.  And she’s Darry and Visery’s only true commodity.  

The question becomes, what to do after you spend your last coin?  Which in this case is Visrys’ true sister.  She’s already spent to form an alliance.  The problem is the people you are allying yourself (mainly Dorne) still need additional forces before they agree to commit to a war with the Iron Throne.  So the only thing you can do is try and sell a forgery, to raise your army.  In this case Dany’s the forgery, and Viserys job is to maker her a convincing one.

 

There can only be one Daenerys.  If she gets sold off to a Khal she's still the only Daenerys.  Even if she dies, she's still the only one.  The people with the other Daenerys can't do anything with her because she doesn't exist.  Marriages at that level are very public events.  The only way they can use her is to prove the other is a fake.  Good luck with that.  Especially if you have to expose your own involvement.  Then nobody will trust you.

[three-eyed monkey]

They should have swapped in a fake Viserys instead, one they controlled, and sold the real Dany to get him his army. But then that would mean the Archon's daughter is really the Archon's daughter.

 

 

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, Nevets said:

Marriages at that level are very public events. 

Marriages are public marriage contracts are not.  See Viserys and Arianne.  Even the promised groom was unaware of it.

2 hours ago, Nevets said:

The only way they can use her is to prove the other is a fake.  Good luck with that.  Especially if you have to expose your own involvement.  Then nobody will trust you.

No, they've already used her.  That's the point your missing.  She's already been used to form an alliance by people who know she's the real deal and Dany's not.  So they don't have to sell her to anyone in the future she's already sold.

I think the problem that you and some of the other posters have is that you're pretending the Targaryen family is the same post rebellion as it was pre rebellion.  And it's not.  The Targaryens don't have a power base or structure.  They're no longer in the feudal system.  The only value they have is whatever value that the plotters around them choose to give them.

There are no Targaryen loyalists trying to put them on the throne.  They are only surrounded by self-interested parties deciding how they could be of value to them.

 

 

Edited April 19, 2023 by Frey family reunion

[three-eyed monkey]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

No, they've already used her.  That's the point your missing.  She's already been used to form an alliance by people who know she's the real deal and Dany's not.  So they don't have to sell her to anyone in the future she's already sold.

I think the problem that you and some of the other posters have is that you're pretending the Targaryen family is the same post rebellion as it was pre rebellion.  And it's not.  The Targaryens don't have a power base or structure.  They're no longer in the feudal system.  The only value they have is whatever value that the plotters around them choose to give them.

There are no Targaryen loyalists trying to put them on the throne.  They are only surrounded by self-interested parties deciding how they could be of value to them.

But this is so contradictory. You say the real Dany was used to make an alliance. An alliance with who? Just Viserys and Willem Darry? But then you say the Targaryens only value is what the plotters around them choose to give them. If that's the case then why do they need to make a secret marriage alliance using the real Dany, who they took back to Dorne in the guise of the Archon's daughter?

Then there's the point @Nevets is making. If they swap the real Dany for a fake, then in the eyes of the world it is the fake who is the real Dany. If they later reveal the real Dany the world will think she is a fake produced by Doran. So Dorne end up with the real Dany, who the world thinks is the Archon's daughter, while their fake is who the world thinks is Dany.

Even Doran's son Quentyn thinks she is the real Dany. Did Doran neglected to tell him when he sent him off to bring her back? Or did Doran just realize that his fake Dany scheme actually made no sense and the less said about it the better? Besides, he may as well get on board with the rest of the world and pretend the fake he swapped is now the real Dany, she is the one with the dragons after all, and the Archon's daughter, who was the real Dany, is just a pool lounging freeloader he really has no use for.

[divica]

4 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

But this is so contradictory. You say the real Dany was used to make an alliance. An alliance with who? Just Viserys and Willem Darry? But then you say the Targaryens only value is what the plotters around them choose to give them. If that's the case then why do they need to make a secret marriage alliance using the real Dany, who they took back to Dorne in the guise of the Archon's daughter?

Then there's the point @Nevets is making. If they swap the real Dany for a fake, then in the eyes of the world it is the fake who is the real Dany. If they later reveal the real Dany the world will think she is a fake produced by Doran. So Dorne end up with the real Dany, who the world thinks is the Archon's daughter, while their fake is who the world thinks is Dany.

Even Doran's son Quentyn thinks she is the real Dany. Did Doran neglected to tell him when he sent him off to bring her back? Or did Doran just realize that his fake Dany scheme actually made no sense and the less said about it the better? Besides, he may as well get on board with the rest of the world and pretend the fake he swapped is now the real Dany, she is the one with the dragons after all, and the Archon's daughter, who was the real Dany, is just a pool lounging freeloader he really has no use for.

A much simpler question.

why would viserys live a life of misery if he had some secret aliance with dorne? At the very least he would have the funds to live in his own house...

The only way lemongate could work for me is if the real danny died and viserys went insane and decided to kidnap a valyrian girl that looked like her and pretend she is his sister.

[Gilbert Green]

13 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

I think you greatly misunderstand the importance of legitimacy or blood in feudal systems if you think "Targ loyalists" would simply use a fake to try and bolster their position.  The obvious problem is when your putative ally finds out they have been duped and your word is worthless...... 

I don't suppose there is any plan for any putative ally to find out the truth.

13 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Cynical opportunists might use fakes, yes, but Varys and Illyrio are more likely that than "loyalists".

It would be Illyrio's plan, as far as I know.  His, and that of Mad Viserys, who he no doubt talked into it.

13 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Do you have any examples in story or in history of regimes based on hereditary succession using fakes? 

"The Prisoner of Zenda"?  And those were the good guys.

Oops.  Sorry.  That's not history.  That's just a colorful and imaginative work of fiction.  Well ... so is this.

Edited April 19, 2023 by Gilbert Green

[three-eyed monkey]

4 minutes ago, divica said:

A much simpler question.

why would viserys live a life of misery if he had some secret aliance with dorne? At the very least he would have the funds to live in his own house...

The only way lemongate could work for me is if the real danny died and viserys went insane and decided to kidnap a valyrian girl that looked like her and pretend she is his sister.

I accept that Dany could potentially be anyone, same for any character really I suppose. Dany could be Viserys. When she says if I look back I'm lost, maybe she means if I look down I'm lost? Personally I think her story and character-arc work much better if she is who we are told.

Some readers think it's about surprises that we can guess at and wait until the next book comes out to find out who guessed right. That's not how good stories work though. Characters are crafted with wounds and goals and traits, they have internal conflict and an external conflict to resolve, and their arcs are created with plot-points where they make decisions that ultimately either succeed or fail to resolve those conflicts. Then there is the symbolism and foreshadowing and themes built into the arc. All of this is part of the story the author is telling us. If you take the Targaryen out of Dany, then you rip the heart out of her arc, in my opinion.

If people want to think that she is someone else, fine, I'm just saying I'm not at all convinced.

[divica]

23 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

I accept that Dany could potentially be anyone, same for any character really I suppose. Dany could be Viserys. When she says if I look back I'm lost, maybe she means if I look down I'm lost? Personally I think her story and character-arc work much better if she is who we are told.

Some readers think it's about surprises that we can guess at and wait until the next book comes out to find out who guessed right. That's not how good stories work though. Characters are crafted with wounds and goals and traits, they have internal conflict and an external conflict to resolve, and their arcs are created with plot-points where they make decisions that ultimately either succeed or fail to resolve those conflicts. Then there is the symbolism and foreshadowing and themes built into the arc. All of this is part of the story the author is telling us. If you take the Targaryen out of Dany, then you rip the heart out of her arc, in my opinion.

If people want to think that she is someone else, fine, I'm just saying I'm not at all convinced.

I don't quite agree. So far it is important for danny to be valyrian. Being a targ only is important when she starts focusing on the IT and westeros. At the moment nothing danny did is because she is a targ nor is she really obecessed with what is happening in westeros. And if she ends up not being a targ she is kind of free to go live her life wherever she wants instead of a place she knows nothing about and probably doesn't want her (westeros).

[Nevets]

11 minutes ago, divica said:

I don't quite agree. So far it is important for danny to be valyrian. Being a targ only is important when she starts focusing on the IT and westeros. At the moment nothing danny did is because she is a targ nor is she really obecessed with what is happening in westeros. And if she ends up not being a targ she is kind of free to go live her life wherever she wants instead of a place she knows nothing about and probably doesn't want her (westeros).

If this is the case, then her story is pointless and a complete waste of time.  I do not think for a minute that that is the case.  Also, she is in fact Targaryen.  Having three dragons as companions is good enough for me.  No way is that a coincidence.  Of course that makes a switch difficult as it very much limits where she could have come from and who she could have been originally.  One reason of many why I don't believe it.

[Mourning Star]

1 hour ago, three-eyed monkey said:

I accept that Dany could potentially be anyone, same for any character really I suppose. Dany could be Viserys. When she says if I look back I'm lost, maybe she means if I look down I'm lost? Personally I think her story and character-arc work much better if she is who we are told.

Some readers think it's about surprises that we can guess at and wait until the next book comes out to find out who guessed right. That's not how good stories work though. Characters are crafted with wounds and goals and traits, they have internal conflict and an external conflict to resolve, and their arcs are created with plot-points where they make decisions that ultimately either succeed or fail to resolve those conflicts. Then there is the symbolism and foreshadowing and themes built into the arc. All of this is part of the story the author is telling us. If you take the Targaryen out of Dany, then you rip the heart out of her arc, in my opinion.

If people want to think that she is someone else, fine, I'm just saying I'm not at all convinced.

I fundamentally disagree here.

I think her story works better for me if she isn't who she thought she was. If her cold-eyed Eddard Stark with his frozen heart was her family and saved her life. 

If all her choices were her own.

If I look back I am lost, is the equivalent, to me, of refusing to admit one is afraid. And one can only be brave if one is afraid.

Her story is, in my opinion, all the more meaningful for being about the choices she makes.

And her heart's desire being a home, and a family, and love.

Somewhere beyond the sunset, across the narrow sea, lay a land of green hills and flowered plains and great rushing rivers, where towers of dark stone rose amidst magnificent blue-grey mountains, and armored knights rode to battle beneath the banners of their lords.

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys I

Banners carry arms, as in the sigil of a house.

The door loomed before her, the red door, so close, so close, the hall was a blur around her, the cold receding behind. And now the stone was gone and she flew across the Dothraki sea, high and higher, the green rippling beneath, and all that lived and breathed fled in terror from the shadow of her wings. She could smell home, she could see it, there, just beyond that door, green fields and great stone houses and arms to keep her warm, there. She threw open the door.

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

I think this is a beautiful bit of word play that we will see played out in her story.

You were born in the long summer, sweet one, you've never known anything else, but now the winter is truly coming. Remember the sigil of our House, Arya."
"The direwolf," she said, thinking of Nymeria. She hugged her knees against her chest, suddenly afraid.
"Let me tell you something about wolves, child. When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. Summer is the time for squabbles. In winter, we must protect one another, keep each other warm, share our strengths. So if you must hate, Arya, hate those who would truly do us harm. Septa Mordane is a good woman, and Sansa … Sansa is your sister. You may be as different as the sun and the moon, but the same blood flows through both your hearts. You need her, as she needs you … and I need both of you, gods help me."

A Game of Thrones - Arya II

Remember who you are.

I think it's been right there since the first book, and Stark blood flows through her heart, though she is as different as the sun and the moon from Jon.

Edited April 20, 2023 by Mourning Star

[divica]

14 minutes ago, Nevets said:

If this is the case, then her story is pointless and a complete waste of time.  I do not think for a minute that that is the case.  Also, she is in fact Targaryen.  Having three dragons as companions is good enough for me.  No way is that a coincidence.  Of course that makes a switch difficult as it very much limits where she could have come from and who she could have been originally.  One reason of many why I don't believe it.

why do the dragons limit anything?

Any valyrian could have the potential to hatch dragons. You don't need to be a targ to do it. And if you are that focused on targs certainly there are several unknown dragonseeds...

And her story wouldn't be pointless. It would be about not needing to be part of some great familly to acheive greatness. About achieving greatness because of who you are and not your name. She didn't conquer mereen, release slaves, convinced essosi people to follow her or other things because her name might be targaryen. 

And it would also be fun to read about her acepting she doesn't have a claim to the IT and that the real targaryen's are jon and faegon and that the throne should belong to one of them.

[three-eyed monkey]

8 hours ago, divica said:

I don't quite agree. So far it is important for danny to be valyrian. Being a targ only is important when she starts focusing on the IT and westeros. At the moment nothing danny did is because she is a targ nor is she really obecessed with what is happening in westeros. And if she ends up not being a targ she is kind of free to go live her life wherever she wants instead of a place she knows nothing about and probably doesn't want her (westeros).

Then we are reading different stories. Dany motive from the beginning is to win back the throne from the Usurper who stole it and murdered her family in the process. This is the wound she wants to heal, one she shares with Viserys when he is alive and takes up alone when he dies. She makes decisions based on that. She considers that she could be happy being Drogo's queen but resolves that it would be no life for a dragon. She only turned into Slavers Bay to get an army, one that would help her win back the throne.

If she is a random Valyrian, then how does that character's arc work? How did she end up with Viserys and Darry? Why does Viserys blame her for killing their mother?

Going forward, who can now convince her that she is not who she thinks she is? Will some character reveal it to her? If Illyrio or Varys or Doran tell her that she is not actually who she thinks she is, why would she believe them?

8 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

I fundamentally disagree here.

I think her story works better for me if she isn't who she thought she was. If her cold-eyed Eddard Stark with his frozen heart was her family and saved her life. 

How would that work? Who are her parents? Where was she born? Where's the house with the red door? How did she come to be with Viserys and Darry?

8 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

If all her choices were her own.

That is the case now and that's the point. She is the blood of the dragon, the blood of Aegon the conqueror and her family has ruled the realm for 300 years. She bears that tradition as the Last Targaryen, as she believes she is. But that is the tradition she needs to sacrifice to save the realm, and she can't truly sacrifice what she does not possess. That's a main theme of the story.

8 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

If I look back I am lost, is the equivalent, to me, of refusing to admit one is afraid.

Well I think it means when she reflects on her journey and the price she paid for the throne, her goal, which is the throne, will be lost. That's how Serwyn slew the dragon, by showing it it's reflection.

8 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Her story is, in my opinion, all the more meaningful for being about the choices she makes.

Agreed. Her choices and everything she will have to sacrifice are more meaningful if she is a Targaryen.

8 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

And her heart's desire being a home, and a family, and love.

Part of it. She has an internal conflict because she also wants to win the throne, which stems from her being a Targaryen. She also wants to be a good queen who is loved. These are the things she wants, and she will be forced to sacrifice them to get what she needs, which is to be a true queen and protect the realm whatever the personal cost.

8 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Remember who you are.

Yes, she is essentially a good person. But she has been learning that if she wants to take the throne and rule then she sometimes has to do bad things to get her way. In the end she will have to remember who she is, the good person who began the story. Not that she is someone else.

8 hours ago, divica said:

Any valyrian could have the potential to hatch dragons. You don't need to be a targ to do it. And if you are that focused on targs certainly there are several unknown dragonseeds...

And her story wouldn't be pointless. It would be about not needing to be part of some great familly to acheive greatness. About achieving greatness because of who you are and not your name.

You want her to have the potential to hatch dragons like Valyrians or Targaryens but in the same breath say that there's nothing exceptional about her.

I agree that you don't have to be part of some great family to achieve greatness, it does come down to the character's choices and who they are, not their name. The point GRRM is making with Dany is that even if you have the power to rule the world, the thing everyone is fighting for in the series, it's what you choose to do with that power that matters. If that's her character's goal from the outset, then when she gets it could she give it all up to save the realm?

Certainly, GRRM's saying that you don't have to part of some great family to achieve greatness, but that point is being made through characters like Davos or Mance.

[Mourning Star]

3 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

How would that work?

Lemongate…

3 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Who are her parents?

Lyanna and Rhaegar

3 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Where was she born?

The Tower of Joy.

3 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Where's the house with the red door?

Westeros

3 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

How did she come to be with Viserys and Darry?

She was never with Darry, and as her memory shows us she arrived in Braavos on a ship with a great green sail.

3 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

That is the case now and that's the point.

No. Dany dreamed of running free in the streets not conquering the Iron Throne, that’s Viserys’s dream.

3 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

She is the blood of the dragon, the blood of Aegon the conqueror and her family has ruled the realm for 300 years.

Sure. But who you are doesn’t have to be predetermined by who your family is… I feel like that’s a pretty major theme.

3 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

She bears that tradition as the Last Targaryen, as she believes she is.

She objectively isn’t the last though. This is a misconception she is under.

3 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

But that is the tradition she needs to sacrifice to save the realm, and she can't truly sacrifice what she does not possess. That's a main theme of the story.

Hard disagree.

Not sure what it even means to sacrifice a tradition… like the tradition that a woman can’t sit the iron throne?

Her story is about finding a home and a family she never knew. 

3 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Well I think it means when she reflects on her journey and the price she paid for the throne, her goal, which is the throne, will be lost.

Her goal is happiness, she feels obliged to chase a throne because of who she believes she is, and because of Viserys.

3 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

That's how Serwyn slew the dragon, by showing it it's reflection.

What? I don’t see a meaningful metaphor where or how it applies to Dany.

Serwyn killed Urrax by plunging his spear into its eye.

3 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Agreed. Her choices and everything she will have to sacrifice are more meaningful if she is a Targaryen.

She can have Targaryen Blood without being the Mad King’s daughter.

Chasing Viserys’s dream isn’t more meaningful to her story. 

3 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Part of it. She has an internal conflict because she also wants to win the throne, which stems from her being a Targaryen.

It’s so obviously a moral a trap!!!

Slaves, Dany thought. Khal Drogo would drive them downriver to one of the towns on Slaver's Bay. She wanted to cry, but she told herself that she must be strong. This is war, this is what it looks like, this is the price of the Iron Throne.

3 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

She also wants to be a good queen who is loved. These are the things she wants, and she will be forced to sacrifice them to get what she needs, which is to be a true queen and protect the realm whatever the personal cost.

I sometimes wonder if we are reading the same story.

Good queens don’t conquer with fire and blood. They don’t lead slave armies, and they don’t bring pillaging horses down on the kingdom they claim to want to be a good queen of.

3 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Yes, she is essentially a good person. But she has been learning that if she wants to take the throne and rule then she sometimes has to do bad things to get her way. In the end she will have to remember who she is, the good person who began the story. Not that she is someone else.

This doesn’t pass the smell test.

Wild to me that one can think the moral of this story is that the ends justify the means.

Edited April 20, 2023 by Mourning Star

[three-eyed monkey]

1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

Lemongate…

Exactly. Can't bring it much further than that without dismissing the text. The theory that Dany is someone else starts with an assumed conclusion and then tries desperately to find evidence that supports and explains the conclusion. Her memories that suit your theory are fine, but her memories that don't are dismissed.

If you follow the overwhelming evidence from the start of the story to where we are now it leads you to the conclusion that Dany is Dany, without needing to dismiss anything. The lemon tree might not be in Braavos but that doesn't mean Dany is not Dany.

1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

It’s so obviously a moral a trap!!!

Slaves, Dany thought. Khal Drogo would drive them downriver to one of the towns on Slaver's Bay. She wanted to cry, but she told herself that she must be strong. This is war, this is what it looks like, this is the price of the Iron Throne.

Yes it is a moral trap, you're starting to see her dilemma. It's called inner conflict. She wants to be a true queen but if she is to win the throne she needs to unleash war, but if she doesn't win the throne she can't be a true queen. A true queen belongs not to herself but to her people.

1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

I sometimes wonder if we are reading the same story.

Good queens don’t conquer with fire and blood. They don’t lead slave armies, and they don’t bring pillaging horses down on the kingdom they claim to want to be a good queen of.

That's my point. Mad queens do that, and Dany has the potential to be a mad queen, it will even bring her success when she wakes the dragon and burns Volantis at her second plot point, but Dany has not reached her third and final plot point yet. She will choose a true queen's duty to the realm over her own right to the throne, and in doing so become a great queen who sacrificed herself to save the realm.

1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

This doesn’t pass the smell test.

You think your theory does? It's not even a theory, it's just a conclusion you jumped to and are trying but failing to make work.

1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

Wild to me that one can think the moral of this story is that the ends justify the means.

No, where did I say that. That's just another misunderstanding on your part. The moral is about doing the right thing, being true, despite how hard that may be or what it may cost, so it is the means that justify the ends. Winning the throne by whatever means necessary would be the end justifying the means, and Stannis will demonstrate how that goes. This theme applies to kings, knights, all characters really.

[Frey family reunion]

19 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

But this is so contradictory. You say the real Dany was used to make an alliance. An alliance with who? Just Viserys and Willem Darry? But then you say the Targaryens only value is what the plotters around them choose to give them. If that's the case then why do they need to make a secret marriage alliance using the real Dany, who they took back to Dorne in the guise of the Archon's daughter?

Since I think that the Archon’s green haired daughter is actually Viserys’ true sister, then I think Tyrosh is one of the conspirators.  The fact that the brother of the Archon was at Dany’s wedding shower seems to be additional evidence.  My suspicion is that Myr may be a part of it as well.  Myrish braavos were also at the wedding shower, and I think the Tyroshi - Myr current war might have been a bit of a mummer’s farce to keep the Golden Company tied up, until the invasion is ready.  Myr and Tyrosh then suddenly come to a truce freeing up the Golden Company.  So Myr may be a part of it as well.  (ETA: and it tracks with where Viserys and Dany travel after Braavos, first to Myr, then to Tyrosh).  And all you have to do is look at a map to see how the power that a Dorne, Tyrosh, Myr conspiracy could pose.

Viserys’ real sister’s value is that she’s the last Targaryen Princess, the same reason that Drogo wanted Dany, he thought she was the last Targaryen princess.  It’s like owning the Mona Lisa.

Thus, Viserys and Darry’s only real thing of value is Viserys sister, to try and form an alliance.  The problem is he only has one, and his primary ally, Dorne, wants him to raise his own army before they publicly back him.  Thus, fake Dany is born.

And they don’t originally take Visery’s true sister to Dorne they take her to Tyrosh.  The Archon’s green haired “daughter” only comes to Dorne when Viserys and Dany come to Tyrosh.  I don’t think that’s an accident.  I think they were keeping her separated from her brother and Dany.

19 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Then there's the point @Nevets is making. If they swap the real Dany for a fake, then in the eyes of the world it is the fake who is the real Dany. If they later reveal the real Dany the world will think she is a fake produced by Doran. So Dorne end up with the real Dany, who the world thinks is the Archon's daughter, while their fake is who the world thinks is Dany.

There are no “eyes of the world”.  This place doesn’t have CNN.  Word only gets around through rumors from traders and sea farers, etc.  No one is even sure, when they’re talking about it around the tavern, which Targaryen this Dany is supposed to be.  Regardless, until Viserys death, Viserys is the only known Targaryen in Westeros.  So he just proclaims that she is his true sister, and they sold an imposter to the stupid barbarian, once the Dothraki had served their purpose.  The Golden Company assumed that they needed Viserys to vouch for Young Griff because “the eyes of the world” believed Rhaegar’s son to have already died.  Also keep in mind, word is only spreading about Dany because of her dragons, no one (or perhaps almost no one) saw that coming.

In addition, Viserys is very big on blood purity of the Targaryens.  Yet for some reason he has no problem in selling Dany to the Dothraki, robbing him of his only “pure blooded Targaryen”.  Yet he doesn’t seem conflicted in the least.  That starts to make sense if Viserys believes that Dany’s not his true sister, and his true sister is allegedly waiting for him to be his queen once he takes the throne.  Remember, he allegedly doesn’t know that he’s been betrothed to Arianne.  So it’s very possible that they put the promise of reuniting him with his true sister once he took the throne to encourage his cooperation.

So Viserys’ true sister has multiple purposes.  One, rich powerful persons would want someone with such a unique status.  And two, keeping her away from Viserys but holding her as a promise to Viserys to reunite them once he gains his throne gives her an additional purpose.

19 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Even Doran's son Quentyn thinks she is the real Dany. Did Doran neglected to tell him when he sent him off to bring her back? Or did Doran just realize that his fake Dany scheme actually made no sense and the less said about it the better? Besides, he may as well get on board with the rest of the world and pretend the fake he swapped is now the real Dany, she is the one with the dragons after all, and the Archon's daughter, who was the real Dany, is just a pool lounging freeloader he really has no use for.

Yes, Doran hasn’t told anyone.  Quentyn is with the Yronwoods, and he doesn’t want them to know, and he can’t trust Arianne to keep her trap shut.  Doran didn’t want anyone to know about his plot, his idiot children especially.   

Yes, in a way, once Dany hatched the dragons everything changed, and the “true Targaryen” Princess suddenly seems much less valuable.  But I think it also is worth noting that Quaithe warns Dany not to trust the “son of the sun”.  I think she may be warning her about Doran as opposed to Quentyn.  They may only be interested in Dany’s dragons, and not her impetuous, uncontrollable nature.

Edited April 20, 2023 by Frey family reunion

[Mourning Star]

14 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Exactly. Can't bring it much further than that without dismissing the text.

Right. To ignore so much of the text and dismiss an obvious repeated plot point is wild… but here you go…

14 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

The theory that Dany is someone else starts with an assumed conclusion and then tries desperately to find evidence that supports and explains the conclusion.

No it does not.

It starts with the text in her very first chapter, and includes intentional discrepancies, acknowledged by the author as meaningful, right up through Winds of Winter sample chapters.

14 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Her memories that suit your theory are fine, but her memories that don't are dismissed.

You need to refer to the text if you want this comment to be meaningful.

I think there’s a pretty clear distinction between her own memories and the stories she was told, she repeats this fact for us many times in her first chapter alone.

14 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

If you follow the overwhelming evidence from the start of the story to where we are now it leads you to the conclusion that Dany is Dany, without needing to dismiss anything.
 

Dany is Dany, she’s just not Daenerys Targaryen daughter of Aerys and Rhaella.

Dany is even a northern name.

14 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

The lemon tree might not be in Braavos but that doesn't mean Dany is not Dany.

Ya, it kind of does though.

It means the past she has been told is a lie.

14 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Yes it is a moral trap, you're starting to see her dilemma.

lol… “remember who you are”

14 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

It's called inner conflict.

Come on… 

14 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

She wants to be a true queen but if she is to win the throne she needs to unleash war, but if she doesn't win the throne she can't be a true queen. A true queen belongs not to herself but to her people.

She pretty explicitly doesn’t want to be a queen at all.

You confuse a feeling of duty placed on her for her own feelings and in doing so miss the forest for the trees.

14 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

That's my point. Mad queens do that, and Dany has the potential to be a mad queen, it will even bring her success when she wakes the dragon and burns Volantis at her second plot point, but Dany has not reached her third and final plot point yet.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Doesn’t feel like you are talking about the text of ASoIaF.

14 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

You think your theory does? It's not even a theory, it's just a conclusion you jumped to and are trying but failing to make work.

I’m just pointing out what’s been right there since the beginning. I’m not the first to point it out and I won’t be the last.