The Witch Trials, anyone else?

[Zorral]

Again, please read these to learn how you've been deliberately manipulated into thinking the way JRR does:

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2023/03/anti-trans-transgender-health-care-ban-legislation-bill-minors-children-lgbtq/

https://www.rawstory.com/how-far-right-activists-secretly-devised-a-brutal-anti-trans-plan-report/

"But these days, the Religious Right is generally more focused on attacking transgender rights than it is on attacking gay rights. According to Mother Jones reporter Madison Pauly, newly discovered e-mails from 2019 illustrate the Religious Right’s anti-trans game plan."

Part of this plan is, turning Trans into non-people without any rights, the next to go after is same-sex marriage, which those like Thomas have loathed forever.  It's the same strategy as ridding Themselves of Roe -- once that's out of the way, They can go back to prohibiting contraception of all kinds, and then voting rights for women too.

How are such smartest persons in the room always falling for this stuff?

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

 

Your sentence there is itself rather extreme. How is allowing people to hold a different concept of transness--something kind of like "adoptive parent" with respect to gender, and something like "left handed person" with respect to their minority status--accepting just a little bit of extermination?

Because their goal is not get a special minority status. Their goal is to get some accommodations (like actually allow medical treatment) but otherwise be treated exactly like everyone else. Left-handedness is a good example here - is your view that left handed people should be considered to have a disability? Should they be required to be in certain special ed courses instead of regular classes?

[Ran]

@Zorral

Regardless of what's happening in the US, there are other countries in the world, and a number of European countries are grappling with what the best approach is without any involvement of Republicans or the religious right. Rowling is a citizen of one such country.

I thought episode 6 was the most interesting, as it features Natalie Wynn and in particular a young trans teen named Noah who was particularly articulate and thoughtful. I'd love Rowling and Noah to have a talk, he sounded like he'd be amazed by the opportunity, and perhaps getting his perspective might tease out some more approaches to the issue from Rowling.

[TrackerNeil]

Just now, Ran said:

I thought episode 6 was the most interesting, as it features Natalie Wynn and in particular a young trans teen named Noah who was particularly articulate and thoughtful. I'd love Rowling and Noah to have a talk, he sounded like he'd be amazed by the opportunity, and perhaps getting his perspective might tease out some more approaches to the issue from Rowling.

Yes, that was great. However, Wynn has since stated that she regrets participating in the podcast, which I find curious. Nothing she said in that program indicates to me that she thinks Rowling is just swell. I susbscribe to Wynn's Patreon, and she's been pretty clear that she and Rowling have, um, points of disagreement. So I don't know why Wynn is so displeased.

[Ran]

Just now, TrackerNeil said:

Yes, that was great. However, Wynn has since stated that she regrets participating in the podcast, which I find curious. Nothing she said in that program indicates to me that she thinks Rowling is just swell. I susbscribe to Wynn's Patreon, and she's been pretty clear that she and Rowling have, um, points of disagreement. So I don't know why Wynn is so displeased.

I heard about that. I suspect she feared a backlash from her followers/peers for participating, but if talking to the "enemy" is anathema, we're in real trouble.

I feel like there's a lot of zeal and righteousness. In that respect, Phelps-Roper's list of self-assessment questions were pretty interesting given her own history as a child raised in a virulently bigoted, righteous environment who managed to escape.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

1 minute ago, Kalnestk Oblast said:

Because their goal is not get a special minority status. Their goal is to get some accommodations (like actually allow medical treatment) but otherwise be treated exactly like everyone else. Left-handedness is a good example here - is your view that left handed people should be considered to have a disability? Should they be required to be in certain special ed courses instead of regular classes?

Of course I don't think that it should be considered a disability. Really, I was thinking about every other advocacy movement, from blacks to gays to even athiests. The status as minority is an important distinction to make in such activism.

But how well do I feel accommodated as a lefty is a harder question to answer. As I said, I'm grateful that I'm not demonized, but that's not to say that I am not frequently inconvenienced, and sometimes even feel marginalized. The point is it's never going to feel like you're treated exactly as everyone else is in every respect. Obviously basic human dignity is step one--and that cause shouldn't be taken for granted given the hatred and persuasive power of the right wing. Other issues will depend on what's proposed, but I think it's a bit reckless to advance something like  "an adoptive parent is exactly the same thing as a biological parent and if you disagree than you are a hateful bigot end of story."

[TrackerNeil]

2 minutes ago, Ran said:

I heard about that. I suspect she feared a backlash from her followers/peers for participating, but if talking to the "enemy" is anathema, we're in real trouble.

I feel like there's a lot of zeal and righteousness. In that respect, Phelps-Roper's list of self-assessment questions were pretty interesting given her own history as a child raised in a virulently bigoted, righteous environment who managed to escape.

Wynn has a video about her own cancellation, so I am sure she is worried about covering herself here.

This issue in particular is nuclear hot, but an awful of lot of self-righteousness from all angles. For myself, I think we should all try to approach this one with a good deal of humility, and without assuming that those who disagree with us, to any extent, are evil. The narcissism of small differences applies.

[BigFatCoward]

The whole bathroom thing is fucking insane. There is no arena men (in my proffesional experience) haven't been predatory as fuck in.

Why would they go to all that trouble,  its so fucking bizarre. 

[Larry of the Lawn]

19 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said:

I think we're talking past each other. What I mean is that if a view is well supported by reason and evidence, I'm not likely to think it is bigoted. For example, back when same-sex marriage was still debatable in this nation, someone asked me, "What would change your mind?" I thought it over and decided that, if immediately following the legalization of SSM, we saw a giant spike in divorces that could not be easily explained by something else, I'd likely rethink my support for SSM. In such a case, it might not be bigoted to oppose SSM, because there would be some reason to believe it had deleterious societal effects. 

To bring this back to the matter at hand, I'd want to know more about what Rowling thinks, and why. If her beliefs make sense, that speaks better for those beliefs than if she just heard them from Tucker Carlson and decided that was good enough.

Gotcha.  I believe I've read most of her explanations for why she thinks the way she does and I'll just say that for myself, her reasoning is insufficient to warrant her position, and often rests on, to put it most charitably, debunked studies, exaggerated dangers, and poorly interpreted data 

Shes written quite a bit about this so you are welcome to come to your own conclusions as to what to make of them.

I think her arguments are largely specious - that while she cites some concerns, the fears she has mentioned (cis men using the existence of trans women to commit violence and stuff about people who have detransitioned) are not supported by data. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

13 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

The whole bathroom thing is fucking insane. There is no arena men (in my proffesional experience) haven't been predatory as fuck in.

Why would they go to all that trouble,  its so fucking bizarre. 

Be afraid of the other. Bathrooms feel vulnerable, so it's a great place to scare people about who might else be in there with them. In reality everyone just wants to take a shit in peace. 

[BigFatCoward]

Just now, Tywin et al. said:

Be afraid of the other. Bathrooms feel vulnerable, so it's a great place to scare people about who might else be in there with them. In reality everyone just wants to take a shit in peace. 

American bathrooms have huge gaps in the doors. I think that's why so many of you are so massive, bloated with shit cos you can't relax and take a dump. 

[Kalbear]

20 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Of course I don't think that it should be considered a disability. Really, I was thinking about every other advocacy movement, from blacks to gays to even athiests. The status as minority is an important distinction to make in such activism.

But how well do I feel accommodated as a lefty is a harder question to answer. As I said, I'm grateful that I'm not demonized, but that's not to say that I am not frequently inconvenienced, and sometimes even feel marginalized. The point is it's never going to feel like you're treated exactly as everyone else is in every respect. Obviously basic human dignity is step one--and that cause shouldn't be taken for granted given the hatred and persuasive power of the right wing. Other issues will depend on what's proposed, but I think it's a bit reckless to advance something like  "an adoptive parent is exactly the same thing as a biological parent and if you disagree than you are a hateful bigot end of story."

However, you're advocating for the behavior of "an adoptive parent is not a parent". And is, in fact, a special thing that does not have the same rights as parents.

That's what the idea of a third sex would be for most trans people.

Trans people are not likely to forget they are trans. The world will let them know. What they want is the same right as cisgendered people. You think that is too far.

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, BigFatCoward said:

American bathrooms have huge gaps in the doors. I think that's why so many of you are so massive, bloated with shit cos you can't relax and take a dump. 

Not true! Some of us adapted by being exhibitionists

[Kalbear]

5 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Be afraid of the other. Bathrooms feel vulnerable, so it's a great place to scare people about who might else be in there with them. In reality everyone just wants to take a shit in peace. 

I mean - aren't these the same fucking arguments for not having gays in the locker room? They sound pretty similar to me. Guess the main difference is that with gays it was the men feeling threatened by being objectified the way they objectify women.

[Week]

52 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Obviously we can point to instances of activism where shouting is necessary...but the sudden shift from Gay Marriage campaigns ("they're just like you and me") to trans activism ("you are literally killing trans people!") reflects a profound change seemingly out of the blue.

Many states are restricting care for trans kids, forcing detransitioning or children and adults, as well as the attempted drags bans, etc. These absolutely lead to death directly and indirectly.

 

 

 

[TrackerNeil]

9 minutes ago, Kalnestk Oblast said:

Trans people are not likely to forget they are trans. The world will let them know. What they want is the same right as cisgendered people. You think that is too far.

I don't know that's a fair articulation of what Phylum is saying.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

13 minutes ago, Kalnestk Oblast said:

However, you're advocating for the behavior of "an adoptive parent is not a parent". And is, in fact, a special thing that does not have the same rights as parents.

You are putting words into my mouth. When did I say that?

[Phylum of Alexandria]

4 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said:

I don't know that's a fair articulation of what Phylum is saying.

Yeah, it's not. And if people keep leaping to the absolute worst interpretation of comments they read, we're not gonna go very far.

[Kalbear]

4 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said:

I don't know that's a fair articulation of what Phylum is saying.

 

1 minute ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

You are putting words into my mouth. When did I say that?

You've said that trans people should advocate for a third gender. When they want to be men and women. That by its nature would mean they are not, actually, men and women. They are this third gender.

What rights do third gender people currently have? How are those rights different than what cis women or cis men have? If they are NOT different why give them a different class? 

From a SAT syllogism perspective, the parent in adoptive parent is equivalent to the woman in trans woman. If you're arguing that trans women should not be considered women, you're arguing that adoptive parents should not be considered parents. 

[Phylum of Alexandria]

7 minutes ago, Week said:

Many states are restricting care for trans kids, forcing detransitioning or children and adults, as well as the attempted drags bans, etc. These absolutely lead to death directly and indirectly.

I don't dispute the seriousness of such policies, and the impact it can have on people's lives. That's very different from telling someone that they are literally killing trans people based on an argument they make, or language they use, or an attitude, or a person they "associate with," etc. Yes, some of these issues have high stakes. But perhaps given that, or due to other things like social media rage virality, or something else, such rhetoric is also often abused.