Why is Cersei hated so much when neither version is even in top 25 most evil characters of the whole Ice and Fire franchise (which includes the books, TV show and games)?

[kissdbyfire]

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

There is no comparison between her and Dany.

Of course there isn’t. Jeezuz. Dany has shown herself to be compassionate, empathetic and driven by a true desire to do good. Does she makes mistakes? Of course, same as every other character in the story. 
On the other hand, Cersei has shown herself to be incapable of feeling compassion, devoid of any empathy, and driven by only the most despicable and vile motives. 
And trying to argue that “oh well she’s not that bad b/c she was abused by her husband and had a nasty father” is utterly ridiculous and borderline offensive. 
Having gone through bad shit is neither an excuse nor a justification for her many, many wholly evil deeds. 

[boltons are sick]

10 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

And trying to argue that “oh well she’s not that bad b/c she was abused by her husband and had a nasty father” is utterly ridiculous and borderline offensive. 
Having gone through bad shit is neither an excuse nor a justification for her many, many wholly evil deeds. 

 A lot of fans including you are oversimplifying her motivations. Cersei is not some sadistic serial killer who kills just because "she was abused". She has a genuine desire to rule well, but just thinks that in order to rule well, she needs to be uncrupulous and ruthless and does anything in her power to save her children from Maggy's prophecy and her abuse has made her more ruthless in how she approaches all her problems which is how it affects her, but the motivations behind her actions are not actually "evil".

 She makes a lot of mistakes in AFFC while trying to rule the kingdom while constantly fearing for the safety of her family, but that's caused by her mental instability (which, yes, is caused by her abuse).

Edited April 8, 2023 by boltons are sick

[boltons are sick]

13 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Of course there isn’t. Jeezuz. Dany has shown herself to be compassionate, empathetic and driven by a true desire to do good. Does she makes mistakes? Of course, same as every other character in the story. 
On the other hand, Cersei has shown herself to be incapable of feeling compassion, devoid of any empathy, and driven by only the most despicable and vile motives. 
And trying to argue that “oh well she’s not that bad b/c she was abused by her husband and had a nasty father” is utterly ridiculous and borderline offensive. 
Having gone through bad shit is neither an excuse nor a justification for her many, many wholly evil deeds. 

Also, didn't you say you were done or am I misremembering?

[csuszka1948]

2 hours ago, boltons are sick said:

Ned gave her the "choice" to run away where she would eventually be found by Varys and Robert's assassins would have killed them either way. Even Ned tells her that Robert's assassins would chase her wherever she goes so the safest thing for her is to stay and eliminate the people who want to harm her family.

No, it is not. Robert didn't send a single assassin against Dany and Viserys until they made an alliance with Drogo and posed a possible threat. If Cersei left a signed confession that her children are not Robert's and fled, it is likely the same would have happened. She would also have much more support than Viserys and Dany had with Tywin's monetary backing and Jaime to defend them.

Even if she was afraid of Robert, she could have fled AFTER she successfully killed Robert; I doubt that Ned or Stannis would have tried to send assassins after her. Instead she chose war. 

2 hours ago, boltons are sick said:

 Also, Ned could have simply accepted her offer and stayed quiet about the whole thing. It's not like there would have been any war of Ned didn't feel so strongly that "the rightful ruler" should rule Westeros ignoring that Robert himself usurped the throne from the Targaryen dynasty and Ned supported his rebellion. This shows that Ned's honor is very convenient and he is not doing it because he believes it would help the people, but simply because Robert is his friend.

1) No, Ned didn't support the rebellion just because Robert was his friend, but because his father and brother was cruelly killed by Aerys, the mad king who also wanted him dead; it was injustice.

Similarly, the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn (as far as he knew), crippled Bran and sent an assassin to silence him; if he doesn't tell Robert about the incest, he lets such injustices (including injustices against his family) stand unadressed and lets the Lannisters believe that they can do whatever they please.

Letting a King (or a noble House, like Lannisters or Targaryens) believe he can do whatever he wants without repercussions was what led to Aerys' mad acts and the last Rebellion. Do you expect him to go along with it seeing Joffrey's behaviour? 

2) Ned would have told Robert about the incest even if he wasn't his friend; Cersei was cuckolding the king and trying to place her bastards on the Throne, both of which are crimes in their society. The second one (naming a bastard your heir) is usually not even accepted from Kings (not just from Queens, so it's not sexist), that's why Aegon IV could never get away with naming Daemon his heir over Daeron. 

Actually, he told Cersei first even though it was not in his self-interest BECAUSE he suspected that Robert, 'his friend' would kill the children if he told him first and wanted to give them an opportunity to escape. This shows that his merciful nature is not convenient.

2 hours ago, boltons are sick said:

This shows that Ned puts his own personal relationships before the good of the people. There are a lot of people who are responsible for the war, not just Cersei.

 

Ned tried to avoid war and bloodshed at every step. 

He told Cersei that he knows about the incest to let her children leave alive, even though this would have forever ruined his personal relationship with Robert.

When Renly gave him his offer, he refused because it risked the death of children and hoped that Cersei would leave, and with this he potentially (if he cannot find help from someone else) placed the life of his own children on the line.

When Cersei gave him her offer to step down, he believed that he had the City Watch on his side and he can avoid war by arresting her and her family. Yes, he was naive - this wouldn't have avoided war at this point - but still that's what he tried to achieve. 

 

Obviously, he puts his family before the good of the people to a degree, but compared to most medieval nobles (or most people, indeed), he is an example of virtue. You cannot find 1 person out of 100 who would support Cersei and her vicious son in Ned's place - they literally tried to kill his innocent son two times (successfully crippling him) and murdered his foster father!

[boltons are sick]

5 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

Obviously, he puts his family before the good of the people to a degree, but compared to most medieval nobles (or most people, indeed), he is an example of virtue. You cannot find 1 person out of 100 who would support Cersei and her vicious son in Ned's place - they literally tried to kill his innocent son two times (successfully crippling him) and murdered his foster father!

 The first attempt on Bran's life was done by Jaime and Cersei is not pleased with what he did. The second attempt on Bran's life is done by an unspecified perpatrator and it's very likely it's Littlefinger. His foster father was murdered by Littlefinger and Lysa (Lysa herself says that she poisoned her husband under Littlefinger's request and then framed the Lannisters for the deed in her letter.

 Stop accusing Cersei for things she hasn't even done.

Edited April 8, 2023 by boltons are sick

[csuszka1948]

1 hour ago, boltons are sick said:

 By the criteria the communities are using, when a character has more power, they also need to commit bigger atrocities to stand out. My point is not that you should think Cersei is good, but that you shouldn't rank as being one of the worst people in the entire Westerosi setting when she has so much power as monarch of the Seven Kingdoms by fourth book, and yet she harms such a limited number of people and doesn't do more evil with her power even though she can, not to mention that unlike many other characters she has excuses for her actions and redeeming qualities.

 

 

 

 When determining whether someone is evil, it's not enough to compare the number of casulties their direct actions have taken or the scale of their atrocities, but also the reasoning behind it.

In the case of Cersei, that's usually sheer spite and malice or desire for power or sometimes the desire to protect her children (which is only needed in the first place because of her selfish acts to !), while in case of Dany, it's usually to achieve a specific goal which she believes serves the people. (Yes, there are exceptions: Dany burning MMD and Cersei trying to kill Tyrion is taking revenge for your child's murderer)

Cersei doesn't attempt to 'govern well' as her council of sychopants and her desire to hope Tommen as a puppet show - she attempts to grab as much power as possible and hold onto it. In contrast, Dany is willing to give up power and make personal sacrifices - such as marrying Hizdahr - for good of the people of Meereen. 

Edited April 8, 2023 by csuszka1948

[csuszka1948]

5 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

 The first attempt on Bran's life was done by Jaime and Cersei is not pleased with what he did.

 

 

LOL: That's what Cersei says in retrospect, when the attempt to kill Bran failed. 

In the chapter of Bran, it is clear that Cersei disapproves that Jaime saved Bran at first and that Jaime pushes him because he believes Cersei wants him to:

"The queen. And now Bran recognized the man beside her. They looked as much alike as reections in a mirror. “He saw us,” the woman said shrilly.

“So he did,” the man said.

Bran’s fingers started to slip. He grabbed the ledge with his other hand. Fingernails dug into unyielding stone. The man reached down. “Take my hand,” he said. “Before you fall.”

Bran seized his arm and held on tight with all his strength. The man yanked him up to the ledge. “What are you doing?” the woman demanded.

The man ignored her. He was very strong. He stood Bran up on the sill. “How old are you, boy?”

“Seven,” Bran said, shaking with relief. His fingers had dug deep gouges in the man’s forearm. He let go sheepishly.

The man looked over at the woman. “The things I do for love,” he said with loathing. He gave Bran a shove. "

It is crystal clear that Cersei wanted Bran silenced. 

When the attempt fails and it results in a war, she conveniently pushes the blame on Jaime, the actual perpetretor of the act.

5 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

The second attempt on Bran's life is done by an unspecified perpatrator and it's very likely it's Littlefinger. His foster father was murdered by Littlefinger and Lysa (Lysa herself says that she poisoned her husband under Littlefinger's request and then framed the Lannisters for the deed in her letter.

 Stop accusing Cersei for things she hasn't even done.

 

 

It was likely done by Joffrey, LF had no way to commit such an act (timeline-wise). Anyway, what matters is Ned's perception - he believes that the Lannisters (either Tyrion or Cersei) sent the assassin to silence Bran. Do you expect him to forgive them?

[boltons are sick]

6 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

LOL: That's what Cersei says in retrospect, when the attempt to kill Bran failed. 

In the chapter of Bran, it is clear that Cersei disapproves that Jaime saved Bran at first and that Jaime pushes him because he believes Cersei wants him to:

"The queen. And now Bran recognized the man beside her. They looked as much alike as reections in a mirror. “He saw us,” the woman said shrilly.

“So he did,” the man said.

Bran’s fingers started to slip. He grabbed the ledge with his other hand. Fingernails dug into unyielding stone. The man reached down. “Take my hand,” he said. “Before you fall.”

Bran seized his arm and held on tight with all his strength. The man yanked him up to the ledge. “What are you doing?” the woman demanded.

The man ignored her. He was very strong. He stood Bran up on the sill. “How old are you, boy?”

“Seven,” Bran said, shaking with relief. His fingers had dug deep gouges in the man’s forearm. He let go sheepishly.

The man looked over at the woman. “The things I do for love,” he said with loathing. He gave Bran a shove. "

It is crystal clear that Cersei wanted Bran silenced. 

 I always read the situation as Cersei panicking and not knowing what to do. The text itself even describes her as speaking "shrilly". She doesn't tell him "kill him", Jaime decides to do that on his own when he sees how scared Cersei is and considering the fact that all of them would get executed if they are discovered.

 Cersei also shares some of the blame because she was at the same place, but Jaime was the one who ultimately pushed Bran and Cersei DIDN'T TELL HIM to do it. She was just really panicking at the moment and was probably expecting Jaime to do something about the situation.

 But either way, it probably doesn't matter because Ned would hold both of them accountable for what happened to Bran.

Edited April 8, 2023 by boltons are sick

[Cas Stark]

But we already know that Cersei is a killer.  We already have a ton of evidence of her paranoia, stupidity and cruelty.  The fact that it was her brother who pushed Bran doesn't change that.  The difference between Cersei and Dany is 1) intention and 2) willingness.  Dany only resorts to cruelty when she feels she has no other option and it is almost always for a greater and positive causse.  That doesn't excuse her actions, but its different than reveling in your cruelty the way Cersei does and in harming others for petty, spiteful and selfish reasons.  Dany is a fundamentally good person who does bad things.  She may, as time goes on, do more bad things that will eventually erode her personality.  Cersei starts out as a bad person, full stop.  She was bad as a child, bad as a preteen and is bad as an adult.  Always bad.

Edited April 8, 2023 by Cas Stark

[Cas Stark]

Also worth noting, that while Dany and Cersei are both beautiful women from famous families, with the inherent privilege that goes with that, their histories are very differernt.  Cersei grew up in absolute security.  Her father was rich and powerful, her parents had a good, solid marriage and her mother was loving.  Her brother adored her.  She had every material item anyone could ever wish for.  She was still murderous and cruel before she was 12.  Cersei had the benefit of her mother's good example until ? 7 ? 10?  I can't remember when she died.  Dany, OTOH, was an orphan, living on the run, with only an immature, paranoid, abusive, damaged brother to help her navigate the world.  They may not have been starving but they certainly lacked financial security or any kind of security or power.  She was always at the mercy of others.  Yet, it is Dany who turns out to be the better person.

[EggBlue]

4 hours ago, boltons are sick said:

The comparison was to illustrate that Daenerys is a good person who hasn't done anything bad which is not true.

 

And Cersei may have done worse but not by a huge margin (I am pretty sure MOST of the slavers she crusified were not guilty),, so it's a poor comparison.

Read that again. You missed so many points in my post. I read a couple of your posts after that one, so I will answer all of them here. Just to be clear! 

the point I was trying to make in that post was solely about CERSEI. the comparison between her and Tywin and Daenerys does not mean I took up a ruler measuring if Cersei's as bad as Tywin (in Bloody Mummers episode no less!) or that Daenerys is an angel Cersei can never hope to be like. 

you started this thread basically claiming that Cersei was an innocent girl put in a terrible situation and forced to make terrible choices. you claimed the hatred towards Cersei is unjustified firstly because of her background and then because she is not in some 25 most evil characters list and such. that's the gist of it. 

In my first post, I explained why the hatred towards Cersei is more intense than someone like Gregor Clegane. and that it doesn't even matter whether she is the worst to be the most hated. obviously, you ignored that post, and from what I've skimmed through, the posts like it. never mind. then you went on emphasizing again and again and again that Cersei's backstory should count toward something. when others rightly pointed out that lowborn characters had worse backgrounds, you dismissed that too. so, in the post you clearly did not understand, I first pointed out that people like Bloody Mummers may in part be the product of rulers like Tywin , Cersei, and Roose. I don't know why you said Cersei was not involved in Tywin's campaign as that was just an example. You see, I was merely pointing out how Cersei's acts would have a bigger effect than the Goat's. If you can't see what I mean, then let's take a look at Cersei's Dwarf Hunt. god knows how many people hunted down innocent dwarfs or in some cases, children, just to have a head delivered to Cersei. In this scenario, these criminals are like Bloody Mummers, Cersei is like Tywin who not only has created a situation where they can commit murder without punishment but are also encouraged. so there's that. 

now we get to the Daenerys point of the post, which, again, you missed completely! Since you were reluctant to accept any comparison with lowborn characters, I thought a comparison with Daenerys, who may have very deliberately been placed in a similar situation by the author might help. Daenerys was in a similar situation with Cersei, a touch worse even. so much that her only family member did the opposite of making her feel safe. at least Cersei had Jaimie her entire life. the point is not that Daenerys is sinless. But it is that in a worse situation, she made better choices than Cersei. (If you'd like we can break down all these choices, but that needs another thread. ) therefore, Cersei's "tragic" background not only doesn't justify her actions but can hardly be so much as an excuse. Daenerys is simply the literal proof that it is possible to make different choices. Cersei tried to make the world an even worse place when she came to power as queen regent; Daenerys tried to make it better with an epiphany that king and queen's job is to bring justice. if you deny this, all I can suggest is to reread the books.

Oh, and the issue of Cersei's love for her children that you've continuously noted in this thread. honestly, give me a passage, sentence, whatever in the book that we can conclude Cersei is motivated by love for her children. From what I read her biggest motivations are greed and lust for power and, more importantly, attention. her love for her children ends with her love for a part of herself. she is even emotionally extremely abusive towards Tommen, and instead of educating him for survival (which you claim to be her goal), thinks it's finally her chance and uses him for her own selfish ambitions. 

[boltons are sick]

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

But we already know that Cersei is a killer.  We already have a ton of evidence of her paranoia, stupidity and cruelty.  The fact that it was her brother who pushed Bran doesn't change that.  The difference between Cersei and Dany is 1) intention and 2) willingness.  Dany only resorts to cruelty when she feels she has no other option and it is almost always for a greater and positive causse.  That doesn't excuse her actions, but its different than reveling in your cruelty the way Cersei does and in harming others for petty, spiteful and selfish reasons.  Dany is a fundamentally good person who does bad things.  She may, as time goes on, do more bad things that will eventually erode her personality.  Cersei starts out as a bad person, full stop.  She was bad as a child, bad as a preteen and is bad as an adult.  Always bad.

In general, a character who was once a genuinely good person, but later becomes evil can still qualify as a Complete Monster/Pure Evil villain if they:

a) have no valid excuse for why they turned evil

b) it's made clear that they have subverted all of their previous redeeming qualities and in the present are 100%

 We had a discussion with other people about which type of Pure Evil villain is morally worse and most of us came to the conclusion that characters who were once good, but chose to get rid of all their redeeming qualities for petty reasons are more evil than characters who were never good because characters who were once good actually know firsthand how to be good people, but in the end they have still chosen to become purely evil and shed all of their previous redeeming qualities for selfish gain, while characters who were always evil don't know how to be good people, at all.

 Obviously, Daenerys won't end up like that no matter what GRRM writes about her because she is always going to be a sympathetic character.

 However, a good example of what I described is Sauron from Lord of the Rings who is listed as Pure Evil/Complete Monster. A lot of people don't know this, but Sauron was once a great hero. He was a Maia who was created to be good and uncorrupted and he was motivated by a desire for order and perfection and sought to help the inhabitants of Middle Earth. In fact, when he fell to evil, at first he was well-intentioned as he only started serving Morgoth because he wanted to bring order to the inhabitants of Middle Earth for what he perceived to be their own benefit. However, over time when he saw how much his knowledge and wisdom was admired by others and how much he could influence them, he started getting vain and stopped caring about helping others and instead wanted to dominate and rule over al of Middle Earth for the sake of his own megalomania.

 This doesn't make Sauron a better person than Cersei. In fact, it makes him much worse than her because initially, he was created to be good and he knew how to be a good person, but in the end he still chose to shed all his redeeming qualities and be nothing but a cruel tyrant who doesn't care about anyone but himself and no longer wants to help anyone. And unlike Cersei who has redeeming qualiities and was made this way by her environment, Sauron in the present has absolutely no redeeming qualities and no excuse for anything he does because the reason why he turned evil was simply because he saw how much his advise was admired by others and he gradually decided that he wanted to influence and dominate everything for the sake of feeding his own megalomania and that the feelings of other beings no longer matter compared to his own designs.

 And, on top of that, Sauron has commited much worse crimes than Cersei:

1) He joined Morgoth and assisted in many of the atrocities his master commited (and they are terrible in their own right).

 2) He tricks a man into betraying his companions by showing him visions of his dying wife and promising him that he would save her and when the man does he is asked, Sauron reveals that his wife has already died and he tortures the man to death to "reunite them".

3) He fed a group of heroes to his werewolves and allowed them to slowly kill them one by one to traumatize the survivors for his own sadistic pleasure.

4) He tortured Celebrimbor to death and used his corpse as a banner.

5) He turns the kingdom of Numenor to darkness by having it worship Morgoth and carry out human sacrifices in huge numbers and also convinced the King to commit many atrocities against his neighbors and to try to conquer the Undying Lands and defeat Eru (the god of Middle Earth) himself and replace him as the new god. His actions in Numenor were so unholy that Eru stepped in and destroyed the entire kingdom.

6) He deceives the races of Middle-earth with the Rings of Power, which included nine Kings of Men blinded by their own power hunger while concealing his creation of the One Ring to Rule Them All.This process eventually allowed Sauron to corrupt the Nazgûl into becoming his slaves, which is described as a fate worse than death as they had their minds twisted and corrupted by Sauron's rings and have suffered for thousands of years.

7) He starts a huge war to conquer or destriy everything and kills a lot of innocent beings only to be stopped by Isildur.

8) Tortures Thráin II in his dungeons and leaves him to die and later tortures Gollum for the location of the One Ring.

9) Specifically orders his minion, Saruman, to wipe out the kingdom of Rohan including the women and the children.

10) Tries to slaughter the city of Minas Tirit along with the entire kingdom of Gondor because they stand in his way.

11) He regularly feeds prisoners to Shelob (the giant spider) because he is a sadist who enjoys seeing the suffering of others.

12) He wanted to wipe out the races of Men and Elves upon reclaiming the One Ring, and also demolish the land of Middle-earth and corrupt it to darkness, such as the Shire, and then conquer the entire world.

 And that's just off the top of my head. Just because Sauron was once good, it doesn't mean that he is any less evil now. In fact, it makes him even worse because he was specifically created by his masters to be good and uncorrupted, but he still decides to go against his nature and becomes the second most evil being in Middle Earth after his master Morgoth.

 Cersei is still largely a victim of her circumstances and has excuses unlike Sauron whose only "excuse" is how much others admired his wisdom and how much he could influence them with his advice which caused him to become vain, uncaring and manipulative towards the beings he once used to care about, she has redeeming qualities which she hasn't subverted unlike Sauron and her crimes are nowhere near as bad as Sauron's.

 That's why Cersei is Inconsistently Heinous while Sauron is Pure Evil.

Edited April 8, 2023 by boltons are sick

[Cas Stark]

Sauron isn't human so comparing him to Cersei is pointless.  I'm not sure either I agree that a good person who turns evil is worse than someone who starts out evil.  A person who was once good can be redeemed.  A person who is evil from childhood is a lost cause.

[boltons are sick]

30 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Sauron isn't human so comparing him to Cersei is pointless.  I'm not sure either I agree that a good person who turns evil is worse than someone who starts out evil.  A person who was once good can be redeemed.  A person who is evil from childhood is a lost cause.

The reason why Pure Evil villains who were once heroes are considered to be more morally reprehensible is because they have a greater understanding of morality, yet they still choose to abandon all of their redeeming qualities in pursuit of something selfish. The fact they can redeem themselves and know how to act as good people, yet choose to remain evil and shed all of their redeeming qualities is what makes them more reprehensible compared to someone who doesn't have as much understanding of morality.

 Also, I wouldn't call Cersei "evil" as a child either. She is shown to be mean, cruel and abusive as a little girl, but that's it. We don't really have enough proof to be sure that she really killed her friend.

Edited April 8, 2023 by boltons are sick

[Craving Peaches]

7 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

We don't really have enough proof to be sure that she really killed her friend.

We have plenty:

• Clear motive for Cersei to want Melara dead so she never speaks of the prophecy and it doesn't come true, and also angry at Melara for her liking Jaime

• Cersei was the last person to see Melara alive

• She knows things that only the killer would know

• She either pushed Melara into that well or left her there to die - there is no evidence she went to get help or told anyone where Melara was

Now we can't be 100% certain but it is clearly implied and seems very probable to me.

Edited April 8, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Aldarion]

1 hour ago, boltons are sick said:

 However, a good example of what I described is Sauron from Lord of the Rings who is listed as Pure Evil/Complete Monster. A lot of people don't know this, but Sauron was once a great hero. He was a Maia who was created to be good and uncorrupted and he was motivated by a desire for order and perfection and sought to help the inhabitants of Middle Earth. In fact, when he fell to evil, at first he was well-intentioned as he only started serving Morgoth because he wanted to bring order to the inhabitants of Middle Earth for what he perceived to be their own benefit. However, over time when he saw how much his knowledge and wisdom was admired by others and how much he could influence them, he started getting vain and stopped caring about helping others and instead wanted to dominate and rule over al of Middle Earth for the sake of his own megalomania.

 This doesn't make Sauron a better person than Cersei. In fact, it makes him much worse than her because initially, he was created to be good and he knew how to be a good person, but in the end he still chose to shed all his redeeming qualities and be nothing but a cruel tyrant who doesn't care about anyone but himself and no longer wants to help anyone. And unlike Cersei who has redeeming qualiities and was made this way by her environment, Sauron in the present has absolutely no redeeming qualities and no excuse for anything he does because the reason why he turned evil was simply because he saw how much his advise was admired by others and he gradually decided that he wanted to influence and dominate everything for the sake of feeding his own megalomania and that the feelings of other beings no longer matter compared to his own designs.

 And, on top of that, Sauron has commited much worse crimes than Cersei:

1) He joined Morgoth and assisted in many of the atrocities his master commited (and they are terrible in their own right).

 2) He tricks a man into betraying his companions by showing him visions of his dying wife and promising him that he would save her and when the man does he is asked, Sauron reveals that his wife has already died and he tortures the man to death to "reunite them".

3) He fed a group of heroes to his werewolves and allowed them to slowly kill them one by one to traumatize the survivors for his own sadistic pleasure.

4) He tortured Celebrimbor to death and used his corpse as a banner.

5) He turns the kingdom of Numenor to darkness by having it worship Morgoth and carry out human sacrifices in huge numbers and also convinced the King to commit many atrocities against his neighbors and to try to conquer the Undying Lands and defeat Eru (the god of Middle Earth) himself and replace him as the new god. His actions in Numenor were so unholy that Eru stepped in and destroyed the entire kingdom.

6) He deceives the races of Middle-earth with the Rings of Power, which included nine Kings of Men blinded by their own power hunger while concealing his creation of the One Ring to Rule Them All.This process eventually allowed Sauron to corrupt the Nazgûl into becoming his slaves, which is described as a fate worse than death as they had their minds twisted and corrupted by Sauron's rings and have suffered for thousands of years.

7) He starts a huge war to conquer or destriy everything and kills a lot of innocent beings only to be stopped by Isildur.

8) Tortures Thráin II in his dungeons and leaves him to die and later tortures Gollum for the location of the One Ring.

9) Specifically orders his minion, Saruman, to wipe out the kingdom of Rohan including the women and the children.

10) Tries to slaughter the city of Minas Tirit along with the entire kingdom of Gondor because they stand in his way.

11) He regularly feeds prisoners to Shelob (the giant spider) because he is a sadist who enjoys seeing the suffering of others.

12) He wanted to wipe out the races of Men and Elves upon reclaiming the One Ring, and also demolish the land of Middle-earth and corrupt it to darkness, such as the Shire, and then conquer the entire world.

 And that's just off the top of my head. Just because Sauron was once good, it doesn't mean that he is any less evil now. In fact, it makes him even worse because he was specifically created by his masters to be good and uncorrupted, but he still decides to go against his nature and becomes the second most evil being in Middle Earth after his master Morgoth.

Sauron is evil, yes. But he is NOT "pure evil".

Guy is, basically, a Communist. You see, Sauron does not see anything wrong with what he is doing. Moreover, whereas Cersei only thinks about herself, Sauron actually believes that it would be better for everyone if he were in charge.

Sauron basically has an OCD in an extreme. He wants order, he wants rule of law, and he does not want waste. Much like Saruman, he sees living processes, life and freedom as a waste and believes that everything would be better if he were in charge.

Of course, this led to hatred of everybody who stood in his way. And that in turn led to everything you have listed in the points.

But he is nowhere near as evil as Morgoth, seeing how latter simply wanted to corrupt creation itself for no reason other than spite. Unlike Morgoth, Sauron does still have some vestige of his original, positive nature left.

[kissdbyfire]

4 hours ago, boltons are sick said:

 A lot of fans including you are oversimplifying her motivations.

How so? Please, enlighten me. 

4 hours ago, boltons are sick said:

Cersei is not some sadistic serial killer who kills just because "she was abused".
 

I’d argue that someone who turns murderous b/c they were abused is less of a “serial killer” than someone who just kills people because they can/want. At least there’s some causal element to it. Cersei starts killing people at a very tender age, while she’s still a girl. And her “motive” is malice and spite, b/c Melara dared to ask Maggy if she would marry Jaime. 
 

“Cersei had not had a friend she so enjoyed since Melara Hetherspoon, and Melara had turned out to be a greedy little schemer with ideas above her station. ”

 

4 hours ago, boltons are sick said:

She has a genuine desire to rule well, but just thinks that in order to rule well, she needs to be uncrupulous and ruthless and does anything in her power to save her children from Maggy's prophecy and her abuse has made her more ruthless in how she approaches all her problems which is how it affects her, but the motivations behind her actions are not actually "evil".

Care to back this up w/ some textual support? And by textual support I mean quotes from the books and not more copy+paste from whatever show community about show tropes. 

4 hours ago, boltons are sick said:

 She makes a lot of mistakes in AFFC while trying to rule the kingdom while constantly fearing for the safety of her family, but that's caused by her mental instability (which, yes, is caused by her abuse).

This is bollocks. I’ve asked you whether you’ve read the books and you never replied. If you did read them, you’d know this is not accurate apart from saying Cersei has made many mistakes. In fact, besides getting people tortured and killed, mistakes is all she’s made.

4 hours ago, boltons are sick said:

Also, didn't you say you were done or am I misremembering?

I did, and now I’ve changed my mind. And I will change my mind as many times as I want to. The one thing I won’t change my mind about is what a piece of shit human being Cersei is, no matter how strongly you bend over backwards w/ inane arguments to defend her.  

 

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

Sauron isn't human so comparing him to Cersei is pointless.  I'm not sure either I agree that a good person who turns evil is worse than someone who starts out evil.  A person who was once good can be redeemed.  A person who is evil from childhood is a lost cause.

That’s where we are now. Is the argument in defence of Cersei now that she’s not that bad b/c she was always evil?

1 hour ago, boltons are sick said:

Also, I wouldn't call Cersei "evil" as a child either.
 

Shocking. /s

1 hour ago, boltons are sick said:

She is shown to be mean, cruel and abusive as a little girl, but that's it. We don't really have enough proof to be sure that she really killed her friend.

The ways in which a child can show their evilness are very limited. And yet, Cersei as a child is already cruel, spiteful, vindictive, mean, abusive, and a murderer. I’d say she checks all the boxes. 

Edited April 8, 2023 by kissdbyfire

[Alester Florent]

4 hours ago, boltons are sick said:

 The first attempt on Bran's life was done by Jaime and Cersei is not pleased with what he did.

What's interesting about that scene is that Jaime's first instinct was to save Bran. He only pushes him because of what Cersei says.

Now, whether that's what Cersei intended is debatable. She may have thought it really was possible to intimidate Bran into silence. Or she might have fully intended for Jaime to push him, but convinced herself afterwards that this was Jaime's call based on a misunderstanding, thereby outsourcing any guilt. I'm inclined to believe the latter given that Cersei has little compunction about killing kids elsewhere, but I suspect she is reluctant to get her hands dirty.

Fundamentally, I think Jaime is at heart a good and decent person who has learned to be a bad one from the negative influences on his life (principally Tywin and Cersei). He is a tragic hero. Cersei seems a villain to the core.

4 hours ago, boltons are sick said:

 

The second attempt on Bran's life is done by an unspecified perpatrator and it's very likely it's Littlefinger.

It was Joffrey. I know the show later pinned it on LF but in the books all the evidence points to Joff.

Edited April 8, 2023 by Alester Florent

[Craving Peaches]

OP, have you read the books?

[SeanF]

I don’t believe that good people ever turn evil, but I think good people can become misguided, or misguide themselves.  Especially, once they attain supreme power.

I think that people like Robespierre, Dessalines, the Heavenly King, Mithradates Eupator were basically decent people who hated injustice and wanted to end it.  But then they came to think that any means , however awful, justified the high and good ends for which they strove.  That may perhaps, be Daenerys’ path in the tale.  That’s the path of the tragic hero.  The person who nearly achieves greatness, but just falls short.

They’re different to those who were always rotten to the core.  Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot were of that ilk, as is Cersei.