Four New Cast Members Announced

[Aelwen]

2 minutes ago, Ran said:

I just don't understand stans who get so caught up in indiviudal characters or families that it drives them away from just enjoying the work on its merits. 

Tribalism. It is a story abpout a Civil war so each side has their fans. Who hate the opposite side.
For many people it is a big part of fun. It is sadly often goes too far...

Don't you have your own favourite characters in the book? 

Edited May 3, 2023 by Aelwen

[Ran]

Just now, Aelwen said:

Tribalism. It is a story abpout a Civil war so each side has their fans. Who hate the opposite side.
For many people it is a big part of fun. 

Don't you have your own favourite characters in the book?

Catelyn Stark is my favorite, and I don't at all think that my liking her means that I should be upset at George because of what happened to her. It's all in service of the story.

[Aelwen]

2 minutes ago, Ran said:

Catelyn Stark is my favorite, and I don't at all think that my liking her means that I should be upset at George because of what happened to her. It's all in service of the story.

Book Robb is mine. Arya, Master Aemon. Addam, Cregan. And many others but I am neutral regarding Fire and Blood's characters. I wish we had more of their own thoughts and words quoted. 

 

Nah, most fans are not really upset at George for Jaehaera fate but for some other reason 

Edited May 3, 2023 by Aelwen

[Annara Snow]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

Why, though? It's a fictional family, and fictional events. Nothing is "better" or "worse" about whoever Aegon's children are by.

It also  undercuts one of the post-Regency details we know, for example, that there will be false Prince Daeron's coming forward to try and steal the crown. It would make less sense for pretenders to show up if Jaehaera was queen and her children were going to be next on the 

Henry VII was married to Elizabeth of York and had children with her, heirs to the throne, but that didn't prevent a pretender from claiming to be her brother Richard, and from gaining support of foreign rulers such as his alleged aunt Margaret of Burgundy or the king of Scotland.

Edited May 3, 2023 by Annara Snow

[Annara Snow]

42 minutes ago, Aelwen said:

Book Robb is mine. Arya, Master Aemon. Addam, Cregan. And many others but I am neutral regarding Fire and Blood's characters. I wish we had more of their own thoughts and words quoted. 

 

Nah, most fans are not really upset at George for Jaehaera fate but for some other reason 

Fans who are upset at Jaehaera's fate think it was completely unnecessary and only undermines the ending of the Dance. Since people who talk about HotD are focused on the Dance, why would they focus on "is there enough drama during the Regency?" rather than "How does her death work thematically in the context of the Dance"?

A comparison to Catelyn is odd, since her death was from her POV and very much about her and her arc. Jaehaera's death is mot about her - Ran just confirmed it's all about Unwin Peake.

[Aelwen]

1 minute ago, Annara Snow said:

Fans who are upset at Jaehaera's fate think it was completely unnecessary and only undermines the ending of the Dance.

I think right now the end of the dance looks like each side lost what they wanted: Aegon II stayed the king but he didn't manage to kill Rhaenyra's line, Rhaenyra stayed an usurper but her blood prevailed.

No-win for anyone. 

 

Edited May 3, 2023 by Aelwen

[Annara Snow]

25 minutes ago, Aelwen said:

I think right now the end of the dance looks like each side lost what they wanted: Aegon II stayed the king but he didn't manage to kill Rhaenyra's line, Rhaenyra stayed an usurper but her blood prevailed.

No-win for anyone. 

 

Which is what I thought was always obvious,  that no one won and it was a destructive pointless war 

But it's not obvious, it seems, to a big contingent of hardcore Team Blsck fans who argue, on social media and on this forum too, that the Blacks won, their crucial argument being that "Rhaenyra's  line" lived and ended up on the throne (as if she wasn't fighting for her own rule), and that "Alicent's line died out", as evidence that Alicent is evil and a loser and that "GRRM hates Greens".

Cue tweets rejoicing over Jaehaera's death and arguing that GRRM killed her to punish the Greens, and constructing forced arguments that Aemond's son doesn’t exist, isn't his son, or, my favorite, "Alys sacrificed him/will sacrifice" (?) because...reasons (she's evil because they say she's a witchand that's all you need) or if he exists, he is a bastard, and bastards don't matter. (Same for any bastards Aegon may have had)

Like I said, HotD fandom is quite something.

 

Edited May 3, 2023 by Annara Snow

[Aelwen]

13 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

or if he exists, he is a bastard, and bastards don't matter. (Same for any bastards Aegon may have had)

I saw bastardphobia from Greens mostly. I don't understand the hatred to Jace and Luke. They were good boys regardless of their status. Readd any reddit Greens, they really think bastards subhuman. 

Aemond's son could have been anyone, all we know that he didn't play a part in later events and never pressed his claim.

Quote

Which is what I thought was always obvious,  that no one won and it was a destructive pointless war 

All because  some medieval people couldn't make an exception for one generation. No custom break or tradition break is worthy of such consequences. I'd allow a bastard or a lowborn to inherit only to avoid such dance.

Edited May 3, 2023 by Aelwen

[Zamila]

1 minute ago, Aelwen said:

I saw bastardphobia from Greens mostly. I don't understand the hatred to Jace and Luke. They were good boys regardless of their status. Readd any reddit Greens, they really think bastards subhuman. 

Aemond's son could have been anyone, all we know that he didn't play a part in later events and never pressed his claim.

Oh oh I feel like we have to stop here. I don't think it's a good place for fights for twitter topic. Let twitter topic stays in twitter or reddit

[Aelwen]

Just now, Zamila said:

Oh oh I feel like we have to stop here. I don't think it's a good place for fights for twitter topic. Let twitter topic stays in twitter or reddit

Ok. I agree that war was pointless. They could have found a diplomatic way out. Part the realm, at least. 

[Zamila]

3 minutes ago, Aelwen said:

Ok. I agree that war was pointless. They could have found a diplomatic way out. Part the realm, at least. 

You may reply to the wrong person. But for me succession war was always pointless but unavoidable. Inheritance crisis and conflict generated since the birth of dynasty. Even if it didn't break out during Viserys era it would break out any moment in the future. That's simply the regularity of history. And That's just my personal understanding 

[Lord Varys]

12 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Is this a hot topic on Twitter? That doesn’t really surprise me, but I find Twitter’s formatting harder to follow than, say, Reddit, so I don’t stay as up-to-date on the discourse there. 

Twitter is at best interesting to look for news, but getting into a discussion there is tedious and silly.

12 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

It is me who interprets those paragraphs as him agreeing? LMAO Oh, so when he says the Targaryens were "rightfully" considered closer to gods than men, that's up for interpretation?

It could be that the qualifier there crept in from what his sources told about the rationale for the search for additional dragonriders. But even if it didn't ... it would only be propaganda if we had reason to believe Gyldayn aped a royal narrative he didn't believe in. Which doesn't feel right as the Doctrine of Exceptionalism and what you can call Targaryen worship is something that actually still permeates Westerosi society. These people became their royal dynasty and they like to worship them like the British monarchists still worship their royal family.

This includes even the highest born Westerosi, e.g. Cersei Lannister considering herself and Jaime unworthy to marry each other because they are not Targaryens.

12 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

Wasn't Gyldayn initially not even supposed to live into Robert's reign? Aside from that one line inserted there, the text is 100% written as something one would write during the Targaryen rule, so I'm pretty sure the bulk of it was meant during Aerys.

Gyldayn's work is to cover the entire Targaryen reign and the quote I gave you comes from a section about Aegon the Conqueror, so the man would have written that part/chapter during Robert's reign or even later.

Gyldayn was supposed to have written about Summerhall with the manuscript being damaged ... but that was never included in TWoIaF. It could be that Gyldayn's fictional biography will still have him as maester of Summerhall but then will survive the fire and continue his career thereafter, perhaps writing his history as an archmaester in old age.

George has gone on record saying that he has no intention inventing another maester and creating another 'voice' for the history of the reigns of Jaehaerys II and Aerys II, respectively, so it will be Gyldayn throughout ... as the quote from FaB already effectively confirms.

I also don't think for a moment that a Westerosi person must have issues with 'the Targaryens being closer to gods than men' stuff while Robert Baratheon sits the throne. Robert himself is a Targaryen in all but name - the founder of his house was (most likely) a bastard of Lord Aerion Targaryen and Robert's own grandmother was Rhaelle Targaryen. He had most severe issues with Aerys II and his descendants ... but they represent but the last known male branch of the house. He himself if a scion from a illegitimate male cadet branch and through the most recent marriage he happens to be the first cousin once removed of Aerys II. He is basically as much a Targaryen as Laenor and Laena Velaryon.

And, of course, celebrating the Targaryen kings should be no issue for the Baratheon regime as Steffon and his sons are literally descended from them all but Jaehaerys II and Aerys II (with the former being Steffon's uncle and the latter his first cousin). They are the same family.

12 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

ETA: what break with tradition?! Henry Tudor, unlike Robert, married the daughter of a York king to justify his own claim, and evsn before that the main reason he had any support was because he managed to get support from the Lancastrians as a Beaufort descendant who was also Henry  Vi's nephew. He didn't break with anything. He just had to portray Richard III as an evil usurper, and himself as a savior who ended decades of wars, and he otherwise upheld the tradition of earlier kings.

Henry Tudor had considerable problems convincing the rest of Europe that he was the rightful king of England. And his own narrative was that he seized the crown from Richard on the battlefield, his marriage to Elizabeth may have effectively helped him to smooth things over and strengthen his rule ... but he took very great steps to be firmly established as king before he married her. There was no co-rulership there, no king ruling in part (also) by right of his wife, but it was all about Henry's own spurious claim.

And despite the match with Elizabeth the Tudors were plagued by rival claimants and pretenders well into the reign of Henry VIII - and his obsession with fathering a son is directly linked to the fact that his dynasty might not survive if he has no clear male heir since the other claimants and pretenders were still lurking in the shadows.

Henry's own legal claim is a joke. His grandfather was an obscure Welsh guy, and the fact that he had the great luck to marry the widow of Henry V made his sons half-brothers to King Henry VI made them very important people ... but that didn't give either a claim to the throne. Edmund Tudor marrying Margaret Beaufort was certainly a great match ... but the Beauforts were an illegitimate branch of the royal dynasty. Their legitimization by Richard II was done in exchange for them giving up any claims to the English throne. Henry thus only ended up a pretender because of the civil war scenario and when the Lancastrian side ran out of pretenders ... and, of course, because of the shitshow that was Richard III's reign.

Robert, on the hand, would have been third in line to the throne for most of his life - coming directly after Rhaegar and his own father Steffon.

Regarding the Jaehaera thing:

I expect a lot of people thought that the GoT animated feature about the Dance ended the story with their marriage. But we always knew that Aegon III's children had a Velaryon mother, so that was really a non issue.

But the story of Jaehaera's death as well as the Regency material is a final commentary on the Dance thing. With Unwin Peake we have a most fervent Green ending up murdering the last child of Aegon II - which is a most disgusting thing to do and certainly a meta-commentary that the Green ideology was as much pretense as Rogar Baratheon championing agnatic primogeniture earlier. The Regency era also has the royal court purged of effectively all prominent Green elements - Tyland Lannister dies, the Green regents die or resign, the Green Kingsguard die, and then Peake's repeated conspiracies lead to a great purge and replacement of many royal officials after the Secret Siege. Unless we see Aegon III choosing a new Hand from a prominent Green family (very unlikely, I'd imagine that he would rather name Kermit Tully) the court of Aegon III is pretty much Black.

Even the eventually marriage between Garmund Hightower and Rhaena Targaryen doesn't strike one as a Green-Black reconciliation effort ... since the Hightowers themselves kind of turned into a Black house already with Lady Sam taking charge there and Lord Lyonel and Alyn Oakenfist becoming great friends. Rhaena-Garmund might thus either be love match or Aegon III showing great favor to an already favored house.

Edited May 3, 2023 by Lord Varys

[The Bard of Banefort]

I think that when it comes to how younger characters are portrayed in terms of marriage, romance, etc., a lot of it comes down to the writing. I have confessed that I really like reading about Sansa and the Hound, but part of that is because I never really feel like I’m reading about a 12-year-old girl and a nearly-30-year-old man (God, it sounds so creepy when you put it like that). They don’t seem all that far apart in age in their scenes together. On the other hand, Sansa’s scenes with Littlefinger always feel predatory. When they’re together, it really does feel like a sleazy middle-aged man is preying on a teenage girl, even though LF is only about 30 himself (granted, their relationship would still be creepy even if Sansa was older, given the kidnapping/grooming/mom-daughter-aunt angle, etc.)

This presents a problem in FnB however, because we are only seeing the relationships from afar. Rhaena and Corwyn—just to use a example—probably wouldn’t seem odd if George wrote a traditional story about it. But we don’t have that advantage here.

[Lord Varys]

7 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

This presents a problem in FnB however, because we are only seeing the relationships from afar. Rhaena and Corwyn—just to use a example—probably wouldn’t seem odd if George wrote a traditional story about it. But we don’t have that advantage here.

Rhaena and Corwyn should be a non-issue in any case, as it clearly is Rhaena Targaryen herself who suggests the guy as her husband. Certainly, we have no coverage of Rhaena's time in the Vale in the book but it is actually possible Rhaena just had a crush on the guy which Corwyn never actually noticed ... and then he was formally asked by the regency council to marry the king's half-sister and he was pleasantly surprised and had no reason to refuse.

Hound-Sansa stuff I always found disgusting - yes, they seem to be very close on an emotional or developmental level, but there is a very unpleasant power imbalance there. And it is really gross that he lusts after her since effectively AGoT. Littlefinger at least has the excuse that the girl looks very much like her mother did in that age. It is thus not him being drawn to a child woman, etc. but another version of the love of his life.

Littlefinger-Sansa is certainly creepy in more traditional predatory context, but always have the feeling that one third of Littlefinger actually respects Sansa. He wants her to learn to be as great a player as he is. Sandor, on the other hand, has nothing to offer to Sansa but self-loathing, a truly ugly face, and rage about the injustices of the shitty world they live in. And I shudder at the thought of them exchanging kisses or having sex. With Littlefinger, I think, there is a chance for Sansa to turn the tables if their 'relationship' ever get more serious. A Littlefinger seduced by Sansa could actually end up as her pawn.

[The hairy bear]

 

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think there was any narrative necessity for Aegon III to be a young boy when he came into his throne.

It think it is, if you don't want to end with a completely different story. An adult Aegon III would have been expected to lead his mother's armies during the Dance. He would have been executed by Aegon II. There would have never been any regency. If the Strong boys had been older they would already be married and with sons, and if they were younger, their bastardy would be a minor issue...

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The ball gives some agency to him, but it is a show - like Joffrey's participation in Ned's execution was to be a show - and the regents could have ignored Aegon's choice, like Peake earlier ignored Aegon's choices for the Kingsguard. He tried get rid of Daenaera, after all. 

More importantly, though, Aegon III clearly is not the sharpest knife in the box, and he is only about 14 years old at that time. He wouldn't have thought much about this ... he would have just done what his sisters told him to do (and it is sisters or half-sisters, not cousins).

A 14 year old boy, sharp or not, definitely has agency. Any 14 year old has fully formed preferences and wishes, and even though Rhaena and Baela took the initiative in the ball, it was ultimately Aegon's decision to choose Daenera.

The regents could have ignored Aegon's choice, but the regents hoped to be in the king's good graces when, in three years, he reached majority. And it's not like they could force Aegon III to say the vows or consumate the marriage.

31 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Gyldayn was supposed to have written about Summerhall with the manuscript being damaged ... but that was never included in TWoIaF. It could be that Gyldayn's fictional biography will still have him as maester of Summerhall but then will survive the fire and continue his career thereafter, perhaps writing his history as an archmaester in old age.

Its doubtful, since the Summerhall reports that in the first edition of TWOIAF were attributed to Maester Glyndayn, were later changed to some maester Corso. If George had intended to maintain Glyndayn as the last maester of Summerhall, he wouldn't have corrected a published work.

31 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Robert, on the hand, would have been third in line to the throne for most of his life - coming directly after Rhaegar and his own father Steffon.

For the sake of nuisance, I'd like that during Robert's youth Maegor and Vaella were still alive and/or they had some descendants. That would muddy the succession a little bit.

But in all likelihood, the scenario you describe is the one we'll get.

31 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Unless we see Aegon III choosing a new Hand from a prominent Green family (very unlikely, I'd imagine that he would rather name Kermit Tully) the court of Aegon III is pretty much Black.

Even the eventually marriage between Garmund Hightower and Rhaena Targaryen doesn't strike one as a Green-Black reconciliation effort ... since the Hightowers themselves kind of turned into a Black house already with Lady Sam taking charge there and Lord Lyonel and Alyn Oakenfist becoming great friends. Rhaena-Garmund might thus either be love match or Aegon III showing great favor to an already favored house.

I don't see Aegon III's court as "pretty much black" at all. He dismisses all the regents and the Hand (both greens and blacks), and we have no reason to believe that he favored either side during his rule. Most of the kingsguard was of minor houses (Raskyn, Whithouse, Cobb, Warwick), Isembard Arryn was from a distant branch of the family,... And the very little we know of his reign seem to indicate that he did want to leave the civil war behind (and that wouldn't be possible if you exclude one side from court).

Regardless of how Garmund and Rhaena ended marrying, it's politically very significant that the last dragonrider is married to Lord Ormund's son. And we also see no sign that Aegon III's sons ever intended to favor the old black allies (Elenna marries a Plumm and a Penrose).

[Aelwen]

34 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

Regardless of how Garmund and Rhaena ended marrying, it's politically very significant that the last dragonrider is married to Lord Ormund's son. And we also see no sign that Aegon III's sons ever intended to favor the old black allies (Elenna marries a Plumm and a Penrose).

Do you hint at Aegon deciding it was his mother fault to start the war?

Not only his mother, but his older brothers were killed too.

And he just decided to forget it and move on?

Edited May 3, 2023 by Aelwen

[The hairy bear]

1 minute ago, Aelwen said:

Or he just decided to forget it and move on?

This.

[Ran]

2 minutes ago, Aelwen said:

Or he just decided to forget it and move on?

Pretty much this, from what he says at the end of Fire and Blood. He shows no signs of wanting revenge or reprisal on anybody, he just wants to not be bothered, and decides that just being a good ruler will be sufficient.

Quote

 “I mean to give the small folk peace and food and justice. If that will not suffice to win their love, let Mushroom make a progress. Or perhaps we might send a dancing bear. Someone once told me that the commons love nothing half so much as dancing bears. You may call a halt to this feast tonight as well. Send the lords home to their own keeps and give the food to the hungry. Full bellies and dancing bears shall be my policy.”

 

[Aelwen]

2 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

This.

It is kind of hard to forget your mother was murdered.... You know, there are real life wars now and I bet children who lost their parents and siblings will grow up hating the people who caused it. 

Did Baela and Rhaena decide to just forget it too? It seems to me psychologically unrealistic. 

I find it a bit too rosy.

Edited May 3, 2023 by Aelwen

[Ran]

3 minutes ago, Aelwen said:

It is kind of hard to forget your mother was murdered....

And yet people have forgiven the people who have killed family members and loved ones in the real world.

3 minutes ago, Aelwen said:

Did Baela and Rhaena decide to just forget it too? It seems to me psychologically unrealistic. 

What does it matter if they forget it or not? They aren't the king.

And in any case, did Garmund Hightower kill any of Rhaena's kin? Just because he maybe fought on the "Green" side doesn't mean he was a conspirator who was involved in anything dishonorable. People in the real world have ended up on opposite sides of conflicts and then after the conflict is done have become friends, even partners.