I just realised how Euron travels so fast

[Tyrosh Lannister]

He was exiled in 297 AC and returned in 299 AC. In those 2 years he's visited far off places like Ibben, Valyria and Asshai.

Note : it takes a year to reach Asshai from Westeros and 1 year to get back so total - 2. Ibben would be slightly shorter. But Euron visited all these places in 2 years only ! Other captains would have taken more than 3 years.

Not to mention he was reaving and looting.

How did he travel so fast ? - Blood sacrifice to give him wind for his sails !

Edited June 14, 2023 by Tyrosh Lannister

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

I mark it up as either he is lying (which would be anti climatic) or that GRRM is just bad with numbers 

[Gilbert Green]

2 hours ago, Tyrosh Lannister said:

He was exiled in 297 AC and returned in 299 AC. In those 2 years he's visited far off places like Ibben, Valyria and Asshai.

Note : it takes a year to reach Asshai from Westeros and 1 year to get back so total - 2. Ibben would be slightly shorter. But Euron visited all these places in 2 years only ! Other captains would have taken more than 3 years.

Not to mention he was reaving and looting.

How did he travel so fast ? - Blood sacrifice to give him wind for his sails !

Yes, there are plenty of hints of this.  Euron's cheeky remark to Asha that if he could control the weather, he could always have fair winds and never be becalmed.  Also, we have already seen Stannis' fleet reach the Wall in record time thanks to Mel's blood sacrifice.  We have Moqorro's vision of Euron sailing on a sea of blood; and Victarion using similar methods on the advice of Moqorro.

Edited June 14, 2023 by Gilbert Green

[Gilbert Green]

1 hour ago, King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd said:

I mark it up as either he is lying (which would be anti climatic) or that GRRM is just bad with numbers 

The irony here is that GRRM has probably done the math, and I'm guessing you have not.

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

1 hour ago, Gilbert Green said:

The irony here is that GRRM has probably done the math, and I'm guessing you have not.

I haven’t please tell me

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

I think every instance we see of human sacrifice in the name of good winds works, or at least appears to work. It's like there's some sort of mechanical connection there and it seems to be irrespective of the deity in whose name the sacrifice was made.

[Angel Eyes]

7 hours ago, Tyrosh Lannister said:

He was exiled in 297 AC and returned in 299 AC. In those 2 years he's visited far off places like Ibben, Valyria and Asshai.

Note : it takes a year to reach Asshai from Westeros and 1 year to get back so total - 2. Ibben would be slightly shorter. But Euron visited all these places in 2 years only ! Other captains would have taken more than 3 years.

Not to mention he was reaving and looting.

How did he travel so fast ? - Blood sacrifice to give him wind for his sails !

He's working with Littlefinger, who made a teleporter and Euron implemented it on a wider scale.

[Gilbert Green]

3 hours ago, King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd said:

I haven’t please tell me

Viking ships are said to have been able to sail at 15 knots.  The Silence could be bigger and faster, for all I know.

12 knots is 13.8 miles per hour.

x24 is 331 miles per day.

x7 is 2318 miles per week.

Sailing really is a very fast form of travel in ideal circumstances.  The problem is, you cannot always have ideal winds.  Except, maybe, by magic.

Edited June 14, 2023 by Gilbert Green

[Gilbert Green]

20 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

I think every instance we see of human sacrifice in the name of good winds works, or at least appears to work. It's like there's some sort of mechanical connection there and it seems to be irrespective of the deity in whose name the sacrifice was made.

The God of Death has many faces, haven't you heard?  And has not GRRM hinted to us that ice and fire will both kill you dead?  The Storm God and Rh'llor and the Great Other are on the same team.  Because they are the same team.  Blood magic is Death-God magic.

[Gilbert Green]

Euron arrived at the Iron Islands, knowing that Dany and her dragons were  in Slavers' Bay, before such news had even reached King's Landing.  He arrived with the captured Warlocks in his hold -- the same Warlocks who had left Qarth to pursue Dany to Slavers' Bay.  Reasonable conclusion -- he himself brought the news by a fast ship -- one that was significantly faster than other ships.

[Otatop1000]

4 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

The God of Death has many faces, haven't you heard?  And has not GRRM hinted to us that ice and fire will both kill you dead?  The Storm God and Rh'llor and the Great Other are on the same team.  Because they are the same team.  Blood magic is Death-God magic.

Rh’llor is on the same team as The Great Other??

[Gilbert Green]

3 hours ago, Otatop1000 said:

Rh’llor is on the same team as The Great Other??

Sure.  Like at Ragnarok.  The Fire Demons and the Ice Demons and the Hell Demons and the Warg-Wolves were all on the same team.

[Tyrosh Lannister]

16 hours ago, King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd said:

I mark it up as either he is lying (which would be anti climatic) or that GRRM is just bad with numbers 

I don't think GRRM is bad with numbers in this case as blood magic is powering eurons ship. 

 

10 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

I think every instance we see of human sacrifice in the name of good winds works, or at least appears to work. It's like there's some sort of mechanical connection there and it seems to be irrespective of the deity in whose name the sacrifice was made.

Wonder if the winds to power his ships sails would be much stronger if he sacrificed someone he loved 

[Walda]

I took this as evidence that Euron was lying about the places he had been. 

I think he had settled for a while as a pirate king on Dagger Lake, stealing from other pirates, and merchants, what had been gathered from all over the world, plundering hordes gathered centuries earlier, not just in the three years (According to Asha) he has been absent. 

Euron speaks of

Quote

Horse gods and fire gods, gods made of gold with gemstone eyes, gods carved of cedar wood, gods chiseled into mountains, gods of empty air … I know them all.

it was the Horse gods that caught my attention. Was he talking of the Dothraki, whose sea is grass, who shun salt water, and drag the gods of all the world to Vaes Dothrak?

Quote

protect me from the darkness, protect me from the crabs inside my belly, from the horselords, from the slavers, from the sellswords at my door.

Clearly, the Ibbenese are not especially concerned about Horselords, Westerosi know little of slavers, and the sellswords are concentrated in the Disputed Lands, where the economy of Tyrosh, Myr, Lys and Braavos fund their companies. Nobody much prays to be spared of them when they have slave armies of unsullied to defend them.

Sellswords have spread into Westeros with the War of the Five Kings, but there is less demand for them east of Volantis, where the rich keep standing armies of slaves, and Westerosi smallfolk still identify even mecenaries with the Lords that sponser them, praying that Tywin's or Joffrey's mad dog does not descend on them, even when the butchery is done by the Brave Companions. 

Asshai has worshippers of the Red God, but so does nearly every town and city on Mother Rhoyne and her daughters.

Euron may well have heard the prayers of merchants and pirates from Ib to Asshai on Dagger Lake, but more tellingly, he could have truck with Horselords there too.

Apart from the Reader's quiet skepticism when Euron claims to have sailed the smoking seas, there are reasons to doubt Euron has sailed to Ibben or Asshai in the gifts he has to offer.

Quote

gold and silver, ornate armor, curved swords with gilded pommels, daggers of Valyrian steel, striped tiger pelts and the skins of spotted cats, jade manticores and ancient Valyrian sphinxes, chests of nutmeg, cloves, and saffron, ivory tusks and the horns of unicorns, green and orange and yellow feathers from the Summer Sea, bolts of fine silk and shimmering samite

Qohor is exceptional for its skills in the working of decorative armor and the reworking of Valyrian steel, according to Tobho Mott. The forest of Qohor has spotted tigers and lemures with silver fur. On her journey to Vaes Dothrak, Dany notes that below it there are ancient Valyrian roads, and the tumbled ruins of an ancient city of blackened marble, not far from a fast-running river with a blue waterfall.

Later, Tyrion and Illyrio travel a Valyrian road into the Velvet Hills to the Little Rhoyne, and Ghoyan Drohe, a city of Rhoynish marble, still backened and desolate after dragonfire destroyed it. On their way, they come across a deep lake, once infested by robbers, and the next evening they see a Dragon Sphinx by their road, and the plinth from which her mate had been dragged away.

Chests of nutmeg, cloves and saffron have spread everywhere from the Jade Seas to Westeros by the likes of the Qartheen Spicers, Thirteen, and Tourmaline Brotherhood. They have been at it for centuries. Spices are long-lasting, compact cargos that can be warehoused for seasons and traded when the price is right. There are steady streams of nutmeg and saffron and cloves and pepper to any place that likes to spice their wine and food.

Chests like those are to be found everywhere, from the mysterious chrisms and smokes of religious devotees like Melisandre of Asshai, or retrieved from the wreck of the Sloe Eyed Maid in the bight, and the table of Godric Borrell of the Breakwater, on Sweetsister. From the Wall to the Jade Gates, and further.

And, among these casks, is one of Shade of the Evening. As Euron tells Victarion:

Quote

I captured a certain galleas out of Qarth, along with some cloves and nutmeg, forty bolts of green silk, and four warlocks who told a curious tale.

 

So that explains the spices, and the bolts of cloth as well.

Xaros told Dany

Quote

You had not been gone from Qarth a fortnight when Pyat Pree set out with three of his fellow warlocks, to seek for you in Pentos.

Before Davos is brought before Lord Godric, he hears the story of the Sloe-Eued Maid from out of Pentos

Quote

“When we were down to Pentos we moored beside a trader called the Sloe-Eyed Maid, and I got to drinking with her captain’s steward. He told me a pretty tale about some slip of a girl who come aboard in Qarth, to try and book passage back to Westeros for her and three dragons."

Quhuru Mo of the Cinnamon Wind visited Dany on her first day in Qarth. When she asked if he came from the Summer Isles

Quote

"This is so, Your Grace, but before, not half a year past, we called at Oldtown."

...

“You are certain? The Usurper is dead?”
“So it is said in Oldtown, and Dorne, and Lys, and all the other ports where we have called.”

 

Now, the trade route to Qarth in the summer might not operate on the same timescale as the one from Qarth in the Autumn. In fact, Quhuru clarifies this

Quote

“When does your ship return to Westeros, Captain?”

“Not for a year or more, I fear. From here the Cinnamon Wind sails east, to make the trader’s circle round the Jade Sea.”

But by the time the late apples have ripened in Oldtown, and Lazy Leo is eating his boar with a chestnut stuffing, three reports of Dany's dragons have arrived on the docks of Old Town (ADwD Prologue Pate). Later, Sam is saved by Xhondo, first mate of the Cinnamon Wind, and Quhuru Mo allows him to work his passage from Braavos to Oldtown, via Pentos, Tyrosh, the Stepstones. Maester Aemon dies a day's sail from the inhospitable Dornish coast.

On Whispering Sound they encounter the remains of a battle. One of Euron's sails are sighted on a wreck, but the captain of the Huntress visits and tells them this attack came out of the Sheild Isles. A few days through the Redwyne Straights, and Cinnamon Wind is docked in Oldtown. So we have a rough timeline here. 

Back to the gifts: Tusks could come from Elephants in Volantis, or Mammoths from the far north. They might have culled the beasts that year or found an ancient hoard. 

Unicorn horns are a different matter. These have turned up in the heirlooms of the free folk beyond the wall, and if Jon's dream of Shaggy slaying the unicorn was contemporaneous, they still live on Skagos, at least, until that morning.

Like the ancient Valyrian hell-horn, these could come from anywhere in the Valyrian Freehold, and anywhere they could travel in the centuries since its decline.

The least likely place to find these combustible things? The site of active volcanoes.

Another reason to suspect Crow's Eye's claim is the lack of reports of attacks. Clearly, Euron has done some sucessful wealth-gathering. Found some rare and ancient and very specific antiquities.

But until he arrives in Pyke, there is no rumour of him anywhere. It makes sense that he might have painted his deck and his sail only very recently, and hid in plain sight as a pirate in an area infested with pirates. Only, not quite. If Euron set up in the Stepstones, for example, the likes of Sallador Saan and Aurane, and the trade captains of Illyrio and Baelish, transports for the Golden Company, are going to recognise the cut of Euron's jib regardless of his colors. 

However, he could smuggle himself up the foggy sorrows, replacing the current Shrowded Lord and taking over his vessels easily enough. 

Quote

“The dead do not rise,” insisted Haldon Halfmaester, “and no man lives a thousand years. Yes, there is a Shrouded Lord. There have been a score of them. When one dies another takes his place. This one is a corsair from the Basilisk Islands who believed the Rhoyne would offer richer pickings than the Summer Sea.”

In Storm of Swords, after Lord Tywin resumes his place as Hand in the early Autumn/late summer, after Balon has taken the North and crowned himself and offered alliance to Tywin, Varys attempts to squeeze some international affairs in at the end of a packed meeting of the small council.

Quote

“A kraken has been seen off the Fingers.” He giggled. “Not a Greyjoy, mind you, a true kraken. It attacked an Ibbenese whaler and pulled it under. There is fighting on the Stepstones, and a new war between Tyrosh and Lys seems likely. Both hope to win Myr as ally. Sailors back from the Jade Sea report that a three-headed dragon has hatched in Qarth, and is the wonder of that city—”

(ASoS, Ch 19 Tyrion III)

This could be Euron returning via the Stepstones, while everyone else is preoccupied with their wars. He might have found old maps or new navigation tools that  emboldened him to sail beyond sight of the Western shore, a feat that Victarion equates with ungodly madness, something no sane ship owner would do. 

Or perhaps that was a result of his visions from Shade of the Evening.e

 

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

7 hours ago, Tyrosh Lannister said:

Wonder if the winds to power his ships sails would be much stronger if he sacrificed someone he loved 

LOL. Would probably need a different captain to test that theory.  

[Gilbert Green]

@Walda you put some effort into that analysis, but I see nothing there that convinces me he has not been where he has claimed.  We know he can sail fast, and that suffices. It even explains his visits to Old Valyria, since strong winds and high speed should allow him to pass through dangerous areas with minimal danger of suffocating or boiling in his ship.  This is also a short cut, further explaining his ability to make good time, while other captains avoid the smoking seas by sailing south.  I would not put it past him to lie, but in this case I don't think he is lying.

Edited June 15, 2023 by Gilbert Green

[Otatop1000]

Maybe my memory of later books is rusty, where are we given info that Rickon is on Skaagos?  And where was Jon when he had warg dream about shaggy if he was north of The Wall shouldn’t this be impossible?

[Craving Peaches]

21 minutes ago, Otatop1000 said:

where are we given info that Rickon is on Skaagos?

I think at the end of a chapter Theon's ex-squire Wex throws a dagger at Skaagos on a map.

[Walda]

@Otatop1000 I should have given references (but it takes forever and I was tired/lazy). The "dream" of Shaggy attacking a unicorn is 

Quote

A wild rain lashed down upon his black brother as he tore at the flesh of an enormous goat, washing the blood from his side where the goat’s long horn had raked him.

(ADwD Ch 3 Jon I) Jon was at Castle Black, on the south side of the wall. Ghost is running along the south side of the wall. Ghost notes that he can't sense Summer, and Jon affirms Summer was on the north side of the wall the last time they met.

Quote

“Where is it you want me to go, my lord?”

Robett Glover said, “Wex. Show him.”

The mute flipped the dagger, caught it, then flung it end over end at the sheepskin map that adorned Lord Wyman’s wall. It struck quivering. Then he grinned.

For half a heartbeat Davos considered asking Wyman Manderly to send him back to the Wolf’s Den, to Ser Bartimus with his tales and Garth with his lethal ladies. In the Den even prisoners ate porridge in the morning. But there were other places in this world where men were known to break their fast on human flesh.

(ADwD Ch 29 Davos IV)

@Gilbert Green, I agree that three years is plenty enough time to get from Pyke to Asshai and back, especially in a a fast ship like Silence. No blood sacrifice needed.

But it seems odd to me that nobody has heard anything of Euron for three years, if he had been plundering the high seas in his distinctive ship.

Euron's mention of Horse Lords has me suspicious. He isn't going to encounter anyone praying to be protected from Horse Lords on the high seas.

Another thing I was too lazy/tired to bring up last night, I think some of Euron's men, disguised as "Tyroshi", turned up at the Merchant's House in Volantis while Tyrion was at breakfast.

Quote

Tyrion glanced at the door, where a man had just come in: tall and stooped, his pointed beard dyed a splotchy purple. Some Tyroshi trader.

(ADwD Ch27 Tyrion VII)

This is based mostly on Tyrion easily understanding their conversation, despite his perfunctory knowledge of Tyroshi. Also, his hopes that they were Duck and Haldon, who usually addressed him in the Common Tongue.

Admittedly, their complaints about the ale are not complex, and Tyrion has enough Tyroshi to order a beer.  We are not told what language they are speaking in when they cry "Dwarf fight!", unlike Penny, who specifically addresses the crowd in the Common Tongue. Although, that in itself suggests that she assumed that her audience understood the Common Tongue - an odd assumption if they were Tyroshi. And Penny has worked in Tyrosh, she could tell a Tyroshi accent from a Westerosi.

And on the other hand, Tyrion is sensitive to the point of paranoia about his stature - he would be quick enough to understand the words "Dwarf fight" in any language.

We have met a few explicitly "fake" Tyroshi already: The Blue Bard, Young Griff, the Ironborn crew that attempted to burn Oldtown according to the master of the Huntress.

I also suspect Alios, the singer, of being a fake Tyroshi. (We have only heard him sing in High Valyrian).

But I have my eye on these seamen at the Merchant's House, and possibly also the Tyroshi Brienne observes at the Stinking Goose. I think these are Ironborn spies, collecting intelligence for Euron. They are clearly not mute, but Euron might have acquired more ships in his raid.

Euron returned to Pyke with a very active interest in Daenerys, presumably because of the Dragon Horn.  But his choice was to get the Iron Fleet and Victarion out to Slavers Bay. I think he might have been paying attention to the political situation, knows the Golden Company are heading to Westeros captained by river pilots. 

Just like the battle of Fair Isle, he devises the plan and takes all the credit, while his bovine brother does the fighting. He knew the Tyrells and Redwynes and the sea-levies of Old Town are going to wipe out the Ironborn Lords in the Sheild Isles, that his current fleet will be decimated in Whispering Sound, no matter how powerful its wizard/blood sacrifice. But he seems quite convinced that doesn't matter.

I am not sure how far south of Whispering Sound he intends to sail in the meantime.  It would not surprise me if he turned tail and sailed far North instead. The winds are stronger, and the meridians smaller. The risks are greater, but, Euron. It seems to me his plunder could more likey come from the far north than the smoking seas of Valyria. His dragon horn looks a lot like Melisandre's Horn of Joramun. Walruses have tusks as well as elephants. And Skagos is the only place we have heard had unicorns.

Edited June 16, 2023 by Walda

[Gilbert Green]

15 hours ago, Walda said:

 

@Gilbert Green, I agree that three years is plenty enough time to get from Pyke to Asshai and back, especially in a a fast ship like Silence. No blood sacrifice needed.

For going to Pyke to Asshai in 3 years?  Probably not.  And of course he has been reaving alot longer than the 3 years of his exile.

But he is a sorcerer.   And if his sorcery is not necessary to explain this trip, it may be necessary to explain other trips.

Such as, for instance, his fast journey from Slaver's Bay to the Iron Islands, before news of dragons could even reach King's Landing.

And maybe other trips as well.  Who knows where he's been during the 5+ months of Aeron's imprisonment.