"The Shadow Knows"

[Tradecraft]

GRRM was once asked about Howland Reed and if they knew who Jon Snow's mother's identity and, he gave a cryptic reply. 

 

 

Does Howland know who Jon Snow's mother is?  

 

>The Shadow knows.

 

GRRM

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Month/2002/08) August 2002

 

The reference: "The Shadow knows"

 

"The Shadow knows" is an odd little phrase. Very curious. I wanted to know if anyone had tried to decipher it and, if not if it was a reference to anything else. It might give us a clue of what he meant. 

 

It turns out, the phrase is the catchphrase of an old comic called "[The Shadow](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shadow)".

They even made a movie about in 1994 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shadow_(1994_film)), right before Game of Thrones was first published. 

 

This comic book character is crime fighter whose special power is effective "invisibility". But it's not true invisibility. He is only able to make people think they do not see him by tricking their minds. Because he is not truly invisible, hence their **shadow remains visible**. 

 

The use of the catchphrase, timing of the movie, and GRRM's known love of comics lends some credibility to the idea that he's familiar with the comic book. It's not definite, but I'd say plausible. 

 

If he is familiar with this comic book and he connects Howland Reed to this character, there are some implications. 

 

 

 

-It is possible that someone in the ASOIAF universe has the power of effective "invisibility", save for their shadow which remains visible. 

 

-GRRM's connecting of Howland Reed to "The Shadow" (in the quote above), could be interpreted to mean that Howland Reed has this ability ("invisibility" but the shadow is visible). 

 

-We should look in the text for examples of strange "shadows" , ones that do not look or behave as they should. Such a shadow may be an invisible person (who cannot hide their shadow). 

 

Do we have any proof?

 

I am currently re-reading the series, so I don't have very many examples of odd shadows. But we the readers have seen shadows acting strange before. When a shadow kills Renly was it a magic trick (Fire magic)? Or perhaps it was something else?  

 

 

 

I beg you in the name of the Mother," Catelyn began when a sudden gust of wind flung open the door of the tent. She thought she glimpsed movement, but when she turned her head, it was only the king's shadow shifting against the silken walls. She heard Renly begin a jest, **his shadow moving, lifting its sword**, black on green, candles guttering, shivering, **something was queer, wrong, and then she saw Renly's sword still in its scabbard, sheathed still, but the shadowsword .** . .       

 

"Cold," said Renly in a small puzzled voice, a heartbeat before the steel o**f his gorget parted like cheesecloth beneath the shadow of a blade that was not there**. He had time to make a small thick gasp before the blood came gushing out of his throat. -Catelyn IV, ACOK

 

I'm not 100% certain but this example seemed like an interesting candidate to consider. I am looking for other candidates as well. 

 

I was going to consider the Shadow Baby Melissandre gives birth to under Storms End but, that doesn't seem to fit the idea ("invisible person" with visible shadow). 

 

That being said, shadows in ASOIAF can act peculiar and some of them merit a closer look. 

 

 Conclusion

 

-There are strange shadows in ASOIAF. Some of them do things we don't fully comprehend.  

 

-It's possible that GRRM took inspiration from the comic book "The Shadow" (referenced above), in particular the character with the power to appear "invisible" (they're not truly invisible, they trick others into not seeing them and their shadow is still visible)

 

-It's possible that a character in the story has this ability. It would be an ability related to magical glamors and changing faces (a la the Facelessmen), but very rare and reserved for the most powerful/skilled (I don't think just anyone can do it). 

 

-GRRM made this reference in connection to Howland Reed (who spent time learning the ways of the Green Men on the Isles of Faces). So it may be the case that Howland has these powers. 

 

-As I re-read the books, I am hoping to catalogue any strange shadows I come across to see if there are any patterns that emerge.

 

 

 

It's possible that I'm wrong. Maybe GRRM isn't aware of the comic series and, he just strung some words together that "sounded cool". 

 

IDK. What do you think? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

PS. Others have speculated that certain "shady" characters are Howland as well. 

 

 

 

[https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/jmnvqh/ser\_shadrich\_of\_the\_shady\_glen\_aka\_the\_mad\_mouse/](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/jmnvqh/ser_shadrich_of_the_shady_glen_aka_the_mad_mouse/)

 

[https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/419j2y/spoilers\_all\_who\_is\_howland\_reed\_a\_thorough/](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/419j2y/spoilers_all_who_is_howland_reed_a_thorough/)

 

Edit: I originally posted to Reddit

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/11mxkx6/spoilers_extended_the_shadow_knows/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2

[SaffronLady]

2 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

I was going to consider the Shadow Baby Melissandre gives birth to under Storms End but, that doesn't seem to fit the idea ("invisible person" with visible shadow). 

But wasn't Melissandre's shadow baby the one who supposedly assassinated Renly? If Howland Reed for whatever reason did the deed, what DID the shadow baby do?

Having only shadows visible is probably a useful ability indoors, where medieval light sources are dim and shadows fuzzy. Could imagine Reed scouting ahead to find Lyanna first and alerting Ned, just in case the ToJ KG had more than Other-look-alikes guarding their prince's captive.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

Umm..they were joking.  The Shadow was a plus hero that became a popular radio show (Orson Welles was one of the actors to voice the character), the whole quote is "Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow knows!" (And then he cackles.)

[Nevets]

"The Shadow knows!".  And everyone else will find out in due time.  Obviously Martin isn't going to admit Howland knows, since that practically confirms R+L=J.  Which Martin isn't about to do.

Though to be honest, I would be surprised if Howland Reed did not know.  I'm more interested in finding out who else knows.

[Sandy Clegg]

5 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

It's possible that I'm wrong. Maybe GRRM isn't aware of the comic series and, he just strung some words together that "sounded cool". 

George used to write letters to Stan Lee - he's a huge comic book nerd, so he definitely would know about The Shadow and the famous line. 

Whether it was just amusing deflection or a cheeky hint, who knows? I'd call it a 50/50 chance. George plays his cards close to his chest but he also has those 'clue-teasing' urges within him. I've actually prepared a post about this, looks like I might have to rush it through now.

Oh, and if George is somehow drawing a parallel between Howland and The Shadow (master of disguise) then yes - you have given all us Howland = Ser Shadrich fans a lot to chew on!  Shadow / Shadrich / of the Shady Glen. And one of The Shadow's alter egos, rather like Bruce Wayne, was a rich playboy.  All in all - I love this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shadow

[Alester Florent]

7 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

But wasn't Melissandre's shadow baby the one who supposedly assassinated Renly? If Howland Reed for whatever reason did the deed, what DID the shadow baby do?

Strictly speaking, we don't know for certain that the shadow that killed Renly was one of Mel's. Davos witnessed her birthing the shadow that killed Cortnay Penrose but the Renly-assassin was not seen until it appeared in Renly's tent. 

Of course, the circumstantial evidence that the shadow that killed Renly was birthed by Mel is so overwhelming that any speculation to the contrary is basically just being perverse for the sake of it, but I feel like I've seen fan-theories threaded through narrower gaps.

[Tradecraft]

4 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

George used to write letters to Stan Lee - he's a huge comic book nerd, so he definitely would know about The Shadow and the famous line. 

Whether it was just amusing deflection or a cheeky hint, who knows? I'd call it a 50/50 chance. George plays his cards close to his chest but he also has those 'clue-teasing' urges within him. I've actually prepared a post about this, looks like I might have to rush it through now.

Oh, and if George is somehow drawing a parallel between Howland and The Shadow (master of disguise) then yes - you have given all us Howland = Ser Shadrich fans a lot to chew on!  Shadow / Shadrich / of the Shady Glen. And one of The Shadow's alter egos, rather like Bruce Wayne, was a rich playboy.  All in all - I love this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shadow

I am to please!

[Tradecraft]

29 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Strictly speaking, we don't know for certain that the shadow that killed Renly was one of Mel's. Davos witnessed her birthing the shadow that killed Cortnay Penrose but the Renly-assassin was not seen until it appeared in Renly's tent. 

Of course, the circumstantial evidence that the shadow that killed Renly was birthed by Mel is so overwhelming that any speculation to the contrary is basically just being perverse for the sake of it, but I feel like I've seen fan-theories threaded through narrower gaps.

A guy named Shad pops up out of nowhere before Renly is killed by a shadow...

[Craving Peaches]

6 minutes ago, Tradecraft said:

A guy named Shad pops up out of nowhere before Renly is killed by a shadow...

I thought he was one of Catelyn's travelling companions? He was with her before they met Renly, I think he first appears in Catelyn II ACoK.

Quote

Outside her tent, men were stirring. She heard the whicker of horses, Shadd complaining of stiffness in his back, Ser Wendel calling for his bow. 

Still, odd name choice.

What I find very interesting is the mention of Renly's 'shadow nights'.

Quote

A grey army, Catelyn thought. Grey men on grey horses beneath grey banners. As they sat their horses waiting, Renly's shadow knights pointed their lances upward, so she rode through a forest of tall naked trees, bereft of leaves and life. Where Storm's End stood was only a deeper darkness, a wall of black through which no stars could shine, but she could see torches moving across the fields where Lord Stannis had made his camp.

[Tradecraft]

7 hours ago, Winds of Winter blow cold said:

Umm..they were joking.  The Shadow was a plus hero that became a popular radio show (Orson Welles was one of the actors to voice the character), the whole quote is "Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow knows!" (And then he cackles.)

Mayhaps!

[Sandy Clegg]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Quote

Outside her tent, men were stirring. She heard the whicker of horses, Shadd complaining of stiffness in his back, Ser Wendel calling for his bow. 

Still, odd name choice.

@Craving Peaches Hey peaches. You will be unsurprised to hear that I have a language tidbit to divulge, regarding this. Actually, I can't resist summoning @Seams for this one too, as it's right up her street  

Quote

wrick or rick /rik/ 

noun

A sprain or strain

So Shadd, with a back stiffness - or strain - could very well be a clue pointing to Shadrich .. SHAD + RICK, assuming we pronounce Shadrich with a hard 'ch' as in Ulrich or Heinrich. The plot thickens ...

Edited July 7, 2023 by Sandy Clegg

[Craving Peaches]

2 minutes ago, Sandy Clegg said:

SHAD + RICK

Supposedly the -rich/rik suffix in Ulrich and similar ending names comes from the Celtic rix/Gothic reiks (compare 'Rex' in Latin), which means king/ruler, which would make Shadrick a 'shadow king'.

(Source: https://www.behindthename.com/element/rih)

[John Suburbs]

I doubt it. "The shadow knows" was a common catchphrase for anyone who was asked a question, especially a rhetorical question, that they didn't know the answer to. It came from the radio show that was still popular when Martin was a boy. It opened with a sinister voice asking, "Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? (Dramatic pause) The Shadow knows, bwa ha ha ha ha . . ."

So this was just his way of deflecting a question that he didn't want to answer.

[Sandy Clegg]

7 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

So this was just his way of deflecting a question that he didn't want to answer.

No way to know that without being a mindreader. Anyway, a deflection can also contain a hint - if most people don't care to see it as such. You're aware that George is as crafty as they come, right? Exhibit A: all the ASOIAF books.

[Tradecraft]

42 minutes ago, Sandy Clegg said:

@Craving Peaches Hey peaches. You will be unsurprised to hear that I have a language tidbit to divulge, regarding this. Actually, I can't resist summoning @Seams for this one too, as it's right up her street  

So Shadd, with a back stiffness - or strain - could very well be a clue pointing to Shadrich .. SHAD + RICK, assuming we pronounce Shadrich with a hard 'ch' as in Ulrich or Heinrich. The plot thickens ...

That's funny. I just wrote a post on Reddit (link below) which claimed that PodRICK (a little guy/squire) saved Tyrion from a Kingsguard...

 

Just like Ned was saved by Howland from a Kingsguard by Howland (A little guy/squire figure). 

 

I claimed these two events are parallels which we can use to learn more about one from the other. 

 

I also proved evidence that Tyrion is a clear parallel for Ned. 

 

So they're both "Ned" figures being saved by a little guy from a Kingsguard. 

 

 

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/pureasoiaf/comments/14qlome/tyrion_and_mandon_moore_parallels_of_the_past/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2

Edited July 7, 2023 by Tradecraft

[Craving Peaches]

25 minutes ago, Tradecraft said:

PodRICK

Using the Rick-King connection would make Podrick a 'foot king' since pod means foot. What that means however, I am not sure.

[Tradecraft]

18 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Using the Rick-King connection would make Podrick a 'foot king' since pod means foot. What that means however, I am not sure.

I was focusing more on Podrick saving Tyrion (who I give evidence is a parallel character for Ned. ) From a dangerous Kingsguard. 

Neither Ned nor Tyrion should have survived but they did because they were saved. 

And if shadrick is Howland. What you have is shadrick saving Ned from kg... And Podrick saving Tyrion from KG. 

 

[Tradecraft]

22 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Using the Rick-King connection would make Podrick a 'foot king' since pod means foot. What that means however, I am not sure.

Here's your shoe king. 

 

"Antaeus, in Greek mythology was the son of Poseidon and Gaea and drew his strength from mother, earth, He was invincible while his feet were in contact with the ground. Antaeus challenged strangers to wrestling matches to the death and used their skulls to build a temple to honour his father, Poseidon. On his way to complete the eleventh of his Labours, Antaeus, challenged Heracles to a fight. The strong man knew the secret to Antaeus’s strength and he locked him in a bearhug in such a way as to be unable to touch the ground, before crushing him."

 

Invincibility while touching the ground? 

[Evolett]

19 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

Does Howland know who Jon Snow's mother is?  

 

>The Shadow knows.

Patchface famously sings of the shadows coming to dance. This could be a reference to the undead or to Mel's shadow "babies." I'm more inclinded to think of Patchface's "shadows" in terms of "old powers awakening," something we clearly see in the narrative. So these old powers may be magical powers, they may be dragons, the Others or even spirits and demons of the past (Azor Ahai reborn for example). 

Drogon is an old power returned, also called the "winged shadow." According to Quaithe, the dragons know who Daenerys is, they remember, though she does not.

Quote

"Remember who you are, Daenerys," the stars whispered in a woman's voice. "The dragons know. Do you?"

Perhaps this applies to Jon Snow as well. The dragons will know him and his ancestry. Another example of "shadow dragons" In the dungeons of the Red Keep,watching Arya passing by: 

Quote

Arya held the candle over her head. With each step she took, the shadows moved against the walls, as if they were turning to watch her pass. "Dragons," she whispered

The Others are "white shadows" who might also be aware of Jon's parentage. At the very least, we get the impression that they are aware of him and desire to kill or capture him. 

I think George's shadow references the Land of Always Winter, or the Heart of Winter where the Others are thought to come from and where most likely, an even greater "Shadow" resides, an old power that is well aware of Jon Snow. The connection to Howland Reed can only be through what he learned on the Isle of Faces. Considering he facilitated Ned's victory against Arthur Dayne at the Tower of Joy and sent his two children to Winterfell as guides to the "winged wolf," it's likely Howland received knowledge of the future and knows very much of what lay and still lies ahead. Ultimately, Jon's purpose must be to overcome whatever is at the heart of winter, the shadow that seeks to envelop the world in eternal shadow. 

 

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

22 hours ago, Winds of Winter blow cold said:

Umm..they were joking.  The Shadow was a plus hero that became a popular radio show (Orson Welles was one of the actors to voice the character), the whole quote is "Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow knows!" (And then he cackles.)

Pulp hero. I don't know what happened.