The elephant in the room: Rhaegar was planning on doing human sacrifice to bring back the dragons

[Frey family reunion]

1 minute ago, John Suburbs said:

Rhaegar was planning to do this? Or Aerys?

Perhaps both.  After Harrenhal there seems to have been a thawing between Aerys and Rhaegar’s relationship.  After all, it appears that Aerys allowed at least two of his Kingsguard to accompany Rhaegar’s ride from King’s Landing.  And then, it appears that Hightower was allowed to stay in Rhaegar’s place when Rhaegar was summoned back to King’s Landing.

[Sandy Clegg]

This all feels very much like a 'right recipe, wrong ingredients' problem.

When you look at the glut of theories that have come out since HOTD, and the idea of dragon-bonding between Targs and their dragons through sacrifice/death, then it's not surprising that Aerys/Rhaegar/Aegon whoever were unable to bring forth dragons.

If you take the idea of 'Fire & Blood' to be the essential components of 'dragon bonding' - which includes hatching presumably - then at Summerhall they got the fire part right. But there is something up with their blood, ie. their bloodline. 

That road takes us down the Maester conspiracy route again, how they have been 'nudging and manipulating' the bloodline of Targs since Aegon the Conqueror (through a variety of means) so that the current generation are Targaryen in name only, and their blood is no longer 'ancestrally similar' enough to Aegon the Conqeroony to be effective in working the old dragon mojo.

[John Suburbs]

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Perhaps both.  After Harrenhal there seems to have been a thawing between Aerys and Rhaegar’s relationship.  After all, it appears that Aerys allowed at least two of his Kingsguard to accompany Rhaegar’s ride from King’s Landing.  And then, it appears that Hightower was allowed to stay in Rhaegar’s place when Rhaegar was summoned back to King’s Landing.

Well, I tend to think that didn't happen. Rhaegar was likely in a black cell the whole time, along with Lyanna, and the whole kidnapping thing was a ruse. The KG were at the ToJ on Aerys' orders, not Rhaegar's, awaiting the birth of the magical prince who would be the perfect sacrifice for a dragon. But we'll see.

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Well, I tend to think that didn't happen. Rhaegar was likely in a black cell the whole time, along with Lyanna, and the whole kidnapping thing was a ruse. The KG were at the ToJ on Aerys' orders, not Rhaegar's, awaiting the birth of the magical prince who would be the perfect sacrifice for a dragon. But we'll see.

I suppose.  I just think it's much more likely that there is one thing that could have brought Aerys and Rhaegar together, the "dream of dragons".  For Rhaegar it fulfills the prophecies he's chasing, and for Aerys it satisfies his megla/pyro mania tendencies.

Edited July 17, 2023 by Frey family reunion

[Frey family reunion]

5 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

If you take the idea of 'Fire & Blood' to be the essential components of 'dragon bonding' - which includes hatching presumably - then at Summerhall they got the fire part right. But there is something up with their blood, ie. their bloodline.

Which is why I don't disregard the idea that Dany isn't the daughter of Aerys and Rhaella.

Edited July 17, 2023 by Frey family reunion

[Sandy Clegg]

1 minute ago, Frey family reunion said:

Which is why I don't disregard the idea that Dany isn't the daughter of Aerys and Rhaella.

Agreed. I'm convinced it'll all become a game of 'theory rock, paper, scissors' eventually. 

[John Suburbs]

22 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I suppose.  I just think it's much more likely that there is one thing that could have brought Aerys and Rhaegar together, the "dream of dragons".  For Rhaegar it fulfills the prophecies he's chasing, and for Aerys it satisfies his megla/pyro mania tendencies.

Eh, I just can't see any rapprochement between the two after what Rhaegar has just done to Aerys.

And I think Rhaegar's dragon fantasies are a little overblown. He just doesn't seem the type to pitch a newborn baby into a bonfire, not even for a dragon.

[Frey family reunion]

24 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Eh, I just can't see any rapprochement between the two after what Rhaegar has just done to Aerys.

And I think Rhaegar's dragon fantasies are a little overblown. He just doesn't seem the type to pitch a newborn baby into a bonfire, not even for a dragon.

Except there clearly was one.  Aerys lent out his Kingsguards to Rhaegar.  Aerys reached out to Rhaegar to continue fighting his war.  Rhaegar couldn’t take Aerys’ crutch Jaime away from him.  Aerys allowed Gerold Hightower to remain in Rhaegar’s place rather than return to protect him or fight the war.

So whatever issues they had at the Harrenhal tourney were at least temporarily put aside, and this truce seems to happen even before the war was declared. 

[James Arryn]

On 7/15/2023 at 11:23 PM, Tradecraft said:

I'm thinking it's a better reason than "they look cool". 

Tywin also wears them. Because red is a house colour. 

[SaffronLady]

On 7/17/2023 at 9:01 PM, Tradecraft said:

It could also be R'llhor worship. 

Unlikely, or we must assume by correlation, Tywin and House Lannister in general are also secret R'hllor worshippers.

[John Suburbs]

18 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Except there clearly was one.  Aerys lent out his Kingsguards to Rhaegar.  Aerys reached out to Rhaegar to continue fighting his war.  Rhaegar couldn’t take Aerys’ crutch Jaime away from him.  Aerys allowed Gerold Hightower to remain in Rhaegar’s place rather than return to protect him or fight the war.

So whatever issues they had at the Harrenhal tourney were at least temporarily put aside, and this truce seems to happen even before the war was declared. 

Well, did Aerys lend his KG to Rhaegar? Or were they at the ToJ on Aerys' orders, to protect his sacrifice? Realize that there is no indication that Rhaegar was at the tower at all, nor is there anyone, living or dead, who says they saw him and Lyanna together at any time after Harrenhal. So just like with the Sealord's cat, we need to differentiate between what we've been told versus what we know are facts.

Aerys had Rhaegar lead the host after he had secured his wife and children to use them as leverage, which wouldn't really work if Rhagar had already abandoned them for Lyanna. And Rhaegar has zero battle experience -- has never swung a sword in anger. Why choose him when he has experienced warriors like Dayne and Hightower? Answer: Aerys needs Rhaegar as a figurehead, and he has leverage over him, like he does with Martell. The more important prize is the baby in Lyanna's belly, which is why he wants his top guards there to protect him. And Aerys knows that if worse comes to worse, he can ignite the whole city and then fly to the tower in his own dragon form. He is the mad one in this little drama, after all.

Aerys sent Hightower out to fetch Rhaegar, then Rhaegar is suddenly back at KL without Hightower, which is passing odd, isn't it? Who, other than Hightower, has the authority to compel Rhaegar to return to King's Landing? Why would Rhaegar voluntarily return to his father? For all he knows, he could be executed on the spot.

And if Rhaegar and Aerys are best pals again, why is Rheagar telling Jaime that changes will be made once he returns? That's why I think it's more likely that Aerys had Rhaegar in captivity the whole time, along with Lyanna up until she was impregnated. That's why he covered for him when Brandon came knocking. This was the perfect opportunity to get rid of him, but instead he executes his accusers. Why? Answer: he can't because that would blow the whole ill-conceived scheme wide open.

[James West]

On 7/15/2023 at 5:26 PM, Tradecraft said:

 

No wonder why Rhaegar was so gloomy!

 

But seriously, how come nobody makes the link between blood magic and Rhaegar? 

 

How precisely do you think he was going to hatch dragons? Ask them nicely to hatch? 

 

Dany knew the secret. She sacrificed Mirri Maz Duur like it was nothing. 

 

The question is who was he planning to sacrifice? 

Himself? Plus others? Were those others willing to go down with the ship? 

 

 

 

Mirri Maz Duur earned her way into that fire.  Mirri was an evil witch and that is what happens to her kind.

Rhaegar was not going to sacrifice anybody.  I think he was just sheltering an already pregnant Lyanna.  Lyanna was like Gilly.  A pregnant girl who wanted to protect her future baby.  The men who are the usual suspects for getting her pregnant are Brandon Stark, Mance Rayder, and even Howland Reed.  A man like Rickard Stark would want this pregnancy ended so she could be made to marry Robert.  

We can entertain the idea of Rhaegar planning a sacrifice though.  If he was, he would sacrifice the daughter of the north because he was ordered by Aerys, the king.  Not because of a magic ritual but to terminate Rickard's plan to marry her to Robert.  That marriage is a danger to House Targaryen and must be stopped at whatever cost.  Cutting off Lyanna's head would have worked marvelously.  Rhaegar failed to get it done.  

[Tradecraft]

2 hours ago, James West said:

Mirri Maz Duur earned her way into that fire.  Mirri was an evil witch and that is what happens to her kind.

 

Funny you say that. 

Mirri warned Dany about the cost of Blood magic and did not listen. 

She traded her son's life for her husband... A bargain she would later regret. 

[Frey family reunion]

For those that seem so adamant that Rhaegar would never take part in a blood sacrifice to help bring along a prophecy, what exactly do you base that on? 

Rhaegar’s primary motivation appeared to be fulfilling various prophecies which either included or was centered on the idea of the prince that was promised.

Aemon seemed pretty sure that dragons were proof that Dany fulfilled the prince(ess) that was promied.  

Aemon was also sure that the prince that was promised was the necessary leader for the battle for the Dawn.

Assuming that Rhaegar shared these beliefs, why couldn’t Rhaegar decide that the sacrifice of a few was necessary to help stave off a coming apocalypse?

Why would Rhaegar come to a different conclusion than Stannis?

[kissdbyfire]

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

For those that seem so adamant that Rhaegar would never take part in a blood sacrifice to help bring along a prophecy, what exactly do you base that on? 

Obviously I only speak for myself, but in the name of clarity, I am not "adamant that Rhaegar would never [fill in w/ virtually anything, including take part in a blood sacrifice]". Because so many Targaryens seem to be quite willing to do whatever it takes for power - since power is the reason they want dragons so badly. But also because we basically know fuck all about Rhaegar apart from a few bits we get here and there. The point for me is that if Rhaegar knew so much about this possible threat (and this ties in w/ the possible retcon about Aegon I) it will have been handed poorly b/c we don't really get hints about it. And no, I don't consider a couple of vague mentions about Rhaegar being into prophecy a proper hint, given the type of stuff we get from other Targs. 

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Obviously I only speak for myself, but in the name of clarity, I am not "adamant that Rhaegar would never [fill in w/ virtually anything, including take part in a blood sacrifice]". Because so many Targaryens seem to be quite willing to do whatever it takes for power - since power is the reason they want dragons so badly. But also because we basically know fuck all about Rhaegar apart from a few bits we get here and there. The point for me is that if Rhaegar knew so much about this possible threat (and this ties in w/ the possible retcon about Aegon I) it will have been handed poorly b/c we don't really get hints about it. And no, I don't consider a couple of vague mentions about Rhaegar being into prophecy a proper hint, given the type of stuff we get from other Targs. 

We’re starting to get at least a few hints that Summerhall may have involved some type of sacrifice or attempted sacrifice.  And we’re told that Rhaegar was obsessed with Summerhall, which might be a red flag.

And since the only real motivation we have to decipher Rhaegar’s actions, is his belief in prophecy, then we can at least plausibly suggest that Rhaegar stole an underage girl from her family (political consequences be damned) in order to help fulfill said prophecy.

Is it any real stretch to suggest that Rhaegar may have planned on sacrificing Lyanna’s child to fulfill it?

Edited July 20, 2023 by Frey family reunion

[Frey family reunion]

On 7/19/2023 at 9:50 AM, John Suburbs said:

Well, did Aerys lend his KG to Rhaegar? Or were they at the ToJ on Aerys' orders, to protect his sacrifice? Realize that there is no indication that Rhaegar was at the tower at all, nor is there anyone, living or dead, who says they saw him and Lyanna together at any time after Harrenhal. So just like with the Sealord's cat, we need to differentiate between what we've been told versus what we know are facts.

Aerys had Rhaegar lead the host after he had secured his wife and children to use them as leverage, which wouldn't really work if Rhagar had already abandoned them for Lyanna. And Rhaegar has zero battle experience -- has never swung a sword in anger. Why choose him when he has experienced warriors like Dayne and Hightower? Answer: Aerys needs Rhaegar as a figurehead, and he has leverage over him, like he does with Martell. The more important prize is the baby in Lyanna's belly, which is why he wants his top guards there to protect him. And Aerys knows that if worse comes to worse, he can ignite the whole city and then fly to the tower in his own dragon form. He is the mad one in this little drama, after all.

Aerys sent Hightower out to fetch Rhaegar, then Rhaegar is suddenly back at KL without Hightower, which is passing odd, isn't it? Who, other than Hightower, has the authority to compel Rhaegar to return to King's Landing? Why would Rhaegar voluntarily return to his father? For all he knows, he could be executed on the spot.

And if Rhaegar and Aerys are best pals again, why is Rheagar telling Jaime that changes will be made once he returns? That's why I think it's more likely that Aerys had Rhaegar in captivity the whole time, along with Lyanna up until she was impregnated. That's why he covered for him when Brandon came knocking. This was the perfect opportunity to get rid of him, but instead he executes his accusers. Why? Answer: he can't because that would blow the whole ill-conceived scheme wide open.

After Harrenhal, Rhaegar rides out with six of his closest companions.  At the very least this included Arthur Dayne.  It may have also included Oswell Whent and/or Lewyn Martell.  In the Worldbook, we’re told that near the end of his reign, Aerys came to believe that the only people loyal to him were his Kingsguards (save Jaime).  Which must mean, that Aerys did not feel that any Kingsguards who left with Rhaegar were deserting him.

Likewise, after the war started, Aerys still believed his Kingsguards (save Jaime) were loyal to him.  Which suggests that any Kingsguards who weren’t present to protect Aerys or to fight his war, were absent with Aerys’ leave.

The three Kingsguards at the tower of joy, even suggests as much when they tell Eddard that throughout the war, even though they were absent from the Trident and absent from King Aerys’ side, they were still good, loyal Kingsguards.  Which means they believe they never disobeyed their sworn oath to King Aerys.

Eddard comes to believe that Rhaegar had referred to the tower was the tower of joy.  Which seems to indicate that Rhaegar had a close connection to this particular location.  Presumably Eddard didn’t hear this from Rhaegar’s own lips, so you can choose to disbelieve this.  At this point we’re not given any compelling reason to assume that this information isn’t true.

So if the Kingsguards were guarding something dear to Rhaegar, and if they were doing so with leave of the King, then my takeaway is that Rhaegar and Aerys had come to an accord for Rhaegar’s Dornish project.

Now none of this means that Rhaegar didn’t realize that Aerys’ mental state made him unfit to be a king.  His conversation with Jaime seems to indicate he understood that Aerys was unfit.  I think what it does indicate is that Rhaegar’s interest in the tower of joy took precedence over dealing with his father.  And Rhaegar needed his father’s assistance in fulfilling the prophecy concerning his son.

Edited July 20, 2023 by Frey family reunion

[John Suburbs]

19 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

After Harrenhal, Rhaegar rides out with six of his closest companions.  At the very least this included Arthur Dayne.  It may have also included Oswell Whent and/or Lewyn Martell.  In the Worldbook, we’re told that near the end of his reign, Aerys came to believe that the only people loyal to him were his Kingsguards (save Jaime).  Which must mean, that Aerys did not feel that any Kingsguards who left with Rhaegar were deserting him.

Likewise, after the war started, Aerys still believed his Kingsguards (save Jaime) were loyal to him.  Which suggests that any Kingsguards who weren’t present to protect Aerys or to fight his war, were absent with Aerys’ leave.

The three Kingsguards at the tower of joy, even suggests as much when they tell Eddard that throughout the war, even though they were absent from the Trident and absent from King Aerys’ side, they were still good, loyal Kingsguards.  Which means they believe they never disobeyed their sworn oath to King Aerys.

Eddard comes to believe that Rhaegar had referred to the tower was the tower of joy.  Which seems to indicate that Rhaegar had a close connection to this particular location.  Presumably Eddard didn’t hear this from Rhaegar’s own lips, so you can choose to disbelieve this.  At this point we’re not given any compelling reason to assume that this information isn’t true.

So if the Kingsguards were guarding something dear to Rhaegar, and if they were doing so with leave of the King, then my takeaway is that Rhaegar and Aerys had come to an accord for Rhaegar’s Dornish project.

Now none of this means that Rhaegar didn’t realize that Aerys’ mental state made him unfit to be a king.  His conversation with Jaime seems to indicate he understood that Aerys was unfit.  I think what it does indicate is that Rhaegar’s interest in the tower of joy took precedence over dealing with his father.  And Rhaegar needed his father’s assistance in fulfilling the prophecy concerning his son.

Again, we don't know if any of this story is true. Most people believe that the kidnapping was a lie and that Lyanna willingly ran off with Rhaegar. Well, if the story is half a lie, then it can be a complete lie. We have not met one single witness to Rhaegar and his six friends on the hunt for Lyanna, nor has anyone said they actually saw them together during this entire period, not even at the ToJ.

This whole tale comes from some unknown person on the kingsroad. And if true, they made not even the slightest effort to hide any of this because word of the kidnapping got out before anyone even realized Lyanna was missing. Again, they could have been halfway to Dragonstone before anyone realized anything was amiss. Instead, they chose to blow the whole thing wide open right from the start.

And this is only the first of many blatant contradiction with this version of events. Why would Aerys suddenly make up with Rhaegar after all this? Why would he want three of his top guards protecting Rhaegar's girlfriend instead of protecting him, or protecting Rhaegar on the Trident?

In what way is this a Dornish project? Aerys has his Dornish heir in a marriage that he arranged. Why would he want to elevate a Stark to royalty when the Starks are instrumental in the plot to overthrow him? Why would the Dornish want to allow a Stark to contend with their princess and her son for the Iron Throne?

And OK, Rhaegar went to the tower before and gave it its name. But it's a huge leap in logic to then assume he is the one who brought Lyanna there. If Aerys is trying to frame Rhaegar for this kidnapping, then that is exactly where he will send Lyanna to have her baby. And he would send three of his top guards, who have sworn holy vows to obey him, not Rhaegar, to protect her because he is the one who values the son she will bear, not Rhaegar. If Rhaegar truly cared about Lyanna, he would have taken her to Dragonstone where she is well-protected and he could deny having anything to do with her disappearance and not even Aerys could get to her.