Cersei was right to kill Robert

[Tradecraft]

Renly was plotting to replace her with the Tyrell girl. And it sounded like a serious plot from the sound of Varys. 

Also, we don't know how deep this plot goes. Robert might have been in on it. He certainly didn't love Cersei. 

Cersei was up against the clock no matter what. 

Ned just moved the time schedule forward a bit. 

[SeanF]

And his bastard children?

[Craving Peaches]

20 minutes ago, Tradecraft said:

Robert might have been in on it.

I doubt that because Varys notes Renly and Loras are planning to bring Margaery to court (to show Robert, Robert hasn't even seen her yet) - sounds like they needed to get Robert onboard first.

Also, Cersei did kill Robert, but not because of this plot that she seemingly knows nothing about, but so her incest, fraud and treason couldn't be exposed. So she wasn't right in killing him, because she killed him to cover up her own crimes.

[astarkchoice]

Hmmm given she is younger and probably a lot nicer there could have  been a serious  threat...a henry 8th of england scenario could have arisen!

Robert: Hey high sparrow can i divorce my wife

High sparrow: by the 7  no

Robert: the 7 say no eeeh? Hmmm wheres that drunken fire priest or the summer island exile  when i need them to ask about religion.......and maester send a letter to me old buddy ned if his ...erm ...trees and dirt and  nature gods  allow divorce !!!

Tywin would have been livid and wanted war , ned  and jon arryn  torn on what to do between honour and duty to king and friend over backing a move made of lust and its huge  impact on their society , hoster ...? Shit the tullys strength is based on marriages being honoured.

Stannis theres a guy whod be torn!!!!..on one hand he loves him some duty ON the other if  anyone would welcome shedding unwelcome wives(and with tyrells on board the florents arent needed as a threat ) 

The.tryells would have been on board for it and most of the reach. 

The martells would love it..a chance to twist the knife in tywin

Lf would probably been a little put out by it as the lannisters as lenders probably way less questions than the iron bank or  the various  lesser essosi money lenders or even the faith! That said he may have seen it as all chaos as an oppertunity to climb!!

Edited July 16, 2023 by astarkchoice

[sifth]

Robert didn't love Cersei.................I WONDER WHY? It could have nothing to do with her sleeping with her brother and killing Roberts bastards, lol

[Tradecraft]

3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I doubt that because Varys notes Renly and Loras are planning to bring Margaery to court (to show Robert, Robert hasn't even seen her yet) - sounds like they needed to get Robert onboard first.

Also, Cersei did kill Robert, but not because of this plot that she seemingly knows nothing about, but so her incest, fraud and treason couldn't be exposed. So she wasn't right in killing him, because she killed him to cover up her own crimes.

Knowing Robert he probably would have put Cersei aside for a rich young Tyrell girl. 

The Lannisters surrounding of Robert at all times was a great move. It was the ultimate insurance policy. 

 

 

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

Knowing Robert he probably would have put Cersei aside for a rich young Tyrell girl. 

The Lannisters surrounding of Robert at all times was a great move. It was the ultimate insurance policy. 

 

 

There must have been a fair chance that Cersei would have been discreetly murdered, if and when Robert decided to replace her with Margaery.  There is no ground for annulment.

Self-defence is not far-fetched.  But that does not excuse infant murder by Cersei.

[Craving Peaches]

2 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

Knowing Robert he probably would have put Cersei aside for a rich young Tyrell girl. 

He may well have done. But I don't see that issue as relevant to the question of whether Cersei murdering Robert was right, because that is not why Cersei murdered him. She murdered him so Ned wouldn't reveal her crimes to him. Not because she thought she would be replaced at some point.

[Alester Florent]

Renly's plan seems to have been well-developed in the sense that he had seemingly thought the whole thing through, but not in the sense that he'd even really begun to execute it. It was also less than entirely clear how he was planning to pull it off. Getting Margaerys into Robert's affections would be easy. Finding a way to remove Cersei in a way which wouldn't start a war would be much harder. It's also not at all clear that Cersei even knew about this.

Even if we accept that murder is a justifiable response to this plot (which I don't), the person to kill would be Renly, not Robert.

With that said, and while I think that Cersei's killing of Robert was morally indefensible, it was one of the relatively few plays she has made in the series to date that wasn't boneheadedly stupid and/or banana-boat crazy.

[Tradecraft]

2 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

Renly's plan seems to have been well-developed in the sense that he had seemingly thought the whole thing through, but not in the sense that he'd even really begun to execute it. It was also less than entirely clear how he was planning to pull it off. Getting Margaerys into Robert's affections would be easy. Finding a way to remove Cersei in a way which wouldn't start a war would be much harder. It's also not at all clear that Cersei even knew about this.

Even if we accept that murder is a justifiable response to this plot (which I don't), the person to kill would be Renly, not Robert.

With that said, and while I think that Cersei's killing of Robert was morally indefensible, it was one of the relatively few plays she has made in the series to date that wasn't boneheadedly stupid and/or banana-boat crazy.

The war is easy with the tyrells on side

[SeanF]

8 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

Renly's plan seems to have been well-developed in the sense that he had seemingly thought the whole thing through, but not in the sense that he'd even really begun to execute it. It was also less than entirely clear how he was planning to pull it off. Getting Margaerys into Robert's affections would be easy. Finding a way to remove Cersei in a way which wouldn't start a war would be much harder. It's also not at all clear that Cersei even knew about this.

Even if we accept that murder is a justifiable response to this plot (which I don't), the person to kill would be Renly, not Robert.

With that said, and while I think that Cersei's killing of Robert was morally indefensible, it was one of the relatively few plays she has made in the series to date that wasn't boneheadedly stupid and/or banana-boat crazy.

If a decision was taken to replace Cersei as Queen, in the absence of any lawful means of doing so, I expect she’d have been poisoned, or disposed of some other way, which would not provoke a war.

[BlackLightning]

Cersei was not right to kill Robert. Like @Alester Florent mentioned, the one to have killed in this scenario would have been Renly. However, the problem here remains the same as it was within the series. Cersei was not ready to kill anyone at this point. Even Cersei knows that killing Robert before figuring out what to do about Stannis and Renly (especially Stannis) was a bad call...but her hand was "forced"

[boltons are sick]

100% agree that Cersei was right to act against Robert and Ned. Otherwise she and her children would have been executed for the "crime" of cheating on her husband even though he also cheated on her which demonstrates how sexist Westeros is because they would execute a woman and her children simply for cheating on her abusive husband. Plus, Robert raped her throughout their marriage which alone gives her the moral right to kill him.

Edited July 26, 2023 by boltons are sick

[boltons are sick]

I even made a topic here:

 

[astarkchoice]

41 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

100% agree that Cersei was right to act against Robert and Ned. Otherwise she and her children would have been executed for the "crime" of cheating on her husband even though he also cheated on her which demonstrates how sexist Westeros is because they would execute a woman and her children simply for cheating on her abusive husband. Plus, Robert raped her throughout their marriage which alone gives her the moral right to kill him.

Well yeah its fantasy medival setting women are not equal legaly. Husbands would beat and force themselves on their wives. That said iv read divorce or legal seperation  was possible but  not sure it works in westeros!

The flipside is had robert been told they were bastards hes as likely to have simply exiled them and sent her home in disgrace  to be quickly replaced (prob by margery).

He may or may not have killed her kids but she 100% did kill his and openly threatened to kill others who by all.rights could have been legitimized and raised up...she did it so her incest babies could stay on the throne.

As for robert  cheating he had no choice given he couldnt openly screw highborn ladies nor would cersei give him more than the old knuckle shuffle apart from a few times needed to pretend the kids where his.  Techincaly Cersei was in a realtionship she never stopped  pre marriage and robert wasnt!

Edited July 26, 2023 by astarkchoice

[Craving Peaches]

52 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

Otherwise she and her children would have been executed for the "crime" of cheating on her husband

It is not just that and you know it. It is the fact that she tried to pass off her bastards as legitimate and the fact that she had children with her brother that are the bigger issues here. If Cersei just slept with some guy that wasn't Jaime, assuming she was discreet like she was with Jaime, then nothing would happen.

I won't get into it again here because I did so at length in the other thread, but I find your argument that Cersei is justified in committing a crime because she wants to cover up another crime silly.

Edited July 26, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[boltons are sick]

10 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

It is not just that and you know it. It is the fact that she tried to pass off her bastards as legitimate and the fact that she had children with her brother that are the bigger issues here. If Cersei just slept with some guy that wasn't Jaime, assuming she was discreet like she was with Jaime, then nothing would happen.

I won't get into it again here but I find your argument that Cersei is justified in committing a crime to cover up another crime silly.

The only reason why she is even forced to hide the parentage of her children is because she lives in an extremely sexist society where if she reveals that she has an affair with anyone but her husband she would be excuted which IS sexist. Stop pretending that she wouldn't have been executed even if she was just cheating and stop pretending like she had any other choice to cover her affair and save the lives of her family aother than pretending Jaime's kids are Robert's. Westerosi laws are sexist and discriminatory. Also, nobody would even care about the incest as the things they want to execute Cersei for have nothing to do with the fact her lover is her brother.

This is like saying a Jewish war prisoner of Nazi Germany is not allowed to try an escape from their camps and kill guards because it would be a crime according to the laws of Nazi Germany and should just wait for them to gas him and his whole family because this way he would be abiding to the laws of the country he lives in, no matter if said laws violate the human rights or not. Similarly, Westerosi laws violate Cersei's rights and she has the moral right to rebel against them and kill those who enforce them.

Edited July 26, 2023 by boltons are sick

[Craving Peaches]

4 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

The only reason why she is even forced to hide the parentage of her children is because she lives in an extremely sexist society where if she reveals that she has an affair with anyone but her husband she would be excuted which IS sexist.

No it isn't. Cersei would be executed for incest and fraudulently claiming the children were legitimate, not just 'cheating'. In a scenario were Cersei was caught with someone who wasn't Jaime, the man would be killed, but I doubt Cersei herself would be, Tywin wouldn't allow it. She would be sent back to Casterly Rock.

4 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

Also, nobody would even care about the incest

They most certainly would. Incest is universally reviled in Westeros. It is made very clear in the books.

4 minutes ago, boltons are sick said:

This is like saying a Jewish war prisoner of Nazi Germany is not allowed to try an escape from their camps and kill guards because it would be a crime according to the laws of Nazi Germany and should just wait for them to gas him and his whole family because this way he would be abiding to the laws of the country he lives in, no matter if said laws violate the human rights or not. Similarly, Westerosi laws violate Cersei's rights and she has the moral right to rebel against them and kill those who enforce them.

No it's not. That comparison is insulting to be frank.

Edited July 26, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[boltons are sick]

2 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

No it isn't. Cersei would be executed for incest and fraudulently claiming the children were legitimate, not just 'cheating'. In a scenario were Cersei was caught with someone who wasn't Jaime, the man would be killed, but I doubt Cersei herself would be, Tywin wouldn't allow it. She would be sent back to Casterly Rock.

They most certainly would. Incest is universally reviled in Westeros. It is made very clear in the books.

No it's not. That comparison is insulting to be frank.

The comparison is not insulting because both the laws of Nazi Germany and of the Seven Kingdoms prosecute different types of people. While in Westeros women are not systematically sent to camps to be exterminated, they are still treated as a property to their men and they wcan get abused and their men can even execute them if they cheat on them while there wouldn't be any consequences if a man cheats on his wife. Both laws are discriminatory and no one should listen to them.

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, boltons are sick said:

The comparison is not insulting

It is, and people already pointed out why in the other thread.