Star Trek: I miss Hemmer (spoilers)

[sifth]

On the plus side, Lower Decks is an anime, so that means it could presumably return later down the line, at some point. Family guy and Futurama have both been cancelled several times and returned, so anything is possible.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

I just finished Star Trek: Discovery season 4.  I really liked it.  It think it captures the spirit of the original series where problems are talked through, where hope is a good thing, where we stive to make the Universe… better.

It surprises me, not a whit, that the “Pew Pew Bros” complain it is “too woke” and too “touchy feely”.  That was good Trek.

Edited May 1 by Ser Scot A Ellison

[DaveSumm]

I should get round to that at some point, it feels weird that there’s whole seasons of Trek I haven’t seen. Although I think we can perhaps separate the “too woke” crowd from the “you should maybe be able to do your jobs without crying every ten minutes” crowd.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

35 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

I should get round to that at some point, it feels weird that there’s whole seasons of Trek I haven’t seen. Although I think we can perhaps separate the “too woke” crowd from the “you should maybe be able to do your jobs without crying every ten minutes” crowd.

I don’t want to go back to the “lost a ship with a thousand people… so sad… please pass the butter.”

Emotion is part of drama.  When worlds are about to be destroyed and you stop that… you will feel… emotion.

[sifth]

21 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I don’t want to go back to the “lost a ship with a thousand people… so sad… please pass the butter.”

Emotion is part of drama.  When worlds are about to be destroyed and you stop that… you will feel… emotion.

The TNG and DS9 crew were exposed to death almost every week and almost never cried. I really miss professional adults acting like professional adults.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

35 minutes ago, sifth said:

The TNG and DS9 crew were exposed to death almost every week and almost never cried. I really miss professional adults acting like professional adults.

You can have a happy medium.  The complete lack of emotion when the Yamato was destroyed on TNG isn’t realistic… that kind of loss affects people and people attempt to be professional and carry on but the loss and grief is there and a professional facade isn’t… that good or believable.

Regardless the end of season 4 of Discovery had stakes that were about as high as any portrayed in Trek… Burnham breaking down on the bridge was entirely believable to be… hell I felt the tension and releif in the climax episode of Season 4.  

Professional, sure, emotionless zombies… no… that isn’t what drama is about.  

@TrackerNeil back me up here… oh nitpicker of note…

Edited May 2 by Ser Scot A Ellison

[TrackerNeil]

Haha...like Satan, when my name is invoked, I appear!

@Ser Scot A Ellison is right about the unemotionality of ST characters. I always swear that, just off-screen, the directly is yelling at the actors, "Give me less emotion! Less!" I don't expect these people to go around in deep depression, but, for crying out loud, they could act out once in awhile.

The problem, I think, is that Roddenbery created perfected characters, who have no lessons to learn and no real struggles to contend with. How do you write drama around characters like that?

Edited May 2 by TrackerNeil

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 hour ago, TrackerNeil said:

Haha...like Satan, when my name is invoked, I appear!

@Ser Scot A Ellison is right about the unemotionality of ST characters. I always swear that, just off-screen, the directly is yelling at the actors, "Give me less emotion! Less!" I don't expect these people to go around in deep depression, but, for crying out loud, they could act out once in awhile.

The problem, I think, is that Roddenbery created perfected characters, who have no lessons to learn and no real struggles to contend with. How do you write drama around characters like that?

If you haven’t watched the last few seasons of Discovery… you should.

[sifth]

2 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

You can have a happy medium.  The complete lack of emotion when the Yamato was destroyed on TNG isn’t realistic… that kind of loss affects people and people attempt to be professional and carry on but the loss and grief is there and a professional facade isn’t… that good or believable.

Regardless the end of season 4 of Discovery had stakes that were about as high as any portrayed in Trek… Burnham breaking down on the bridge was entirely believable to be… hell I felt the tension and releif in the climax episode of Season 4.  

Professional, sure, emotionless zombies… no… that isn’t what drama is about.  

@TrackerNeil back me up here… oh nitpicker of note…

You’re describing one of my favorite TNG episodes, where the trained crew acted like professional officers and not children who cry.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 hour ago, sifth said:

You’re describing one of my favorite TNG episodes, where the trained crew acted like professional officers and not children who cry.

More than a thousand dead… and the response is “terribly sad… please pass the butter.”  makes sense to you?  I have to disagree.

[sifth]

24 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

More than a thousand dead… and the response is “terribly sad… please pass the butter.”  makes sense to you?  I have to disagree.

Naturally they should have cried like babies. Silly me. I respect characters who remain professional under pressure, it’s part of being in the military.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 minute ago, sifth said:

Naturally they should have cried like babies. Silly me. I respect characters who remain professional under pressure, it’s part of being in the military.

I didn’t say that.  But the completely non-emotional response rings false to me.  And Starfleet, as we are constantly reminded, isn’t “the military”.

Edited May 2 by Ser Scot A Ellison

[sifth]

9 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I didn’t say that.  But the completely non-emotional response rings false to me.  And Starfleet, as we are constantly reminded, isn’t “the military”.

Starfleet uses military ranks, military style regulations, uses a military style chain of command, and military terminology. Someone who violates orders is tried in a court martial, which very literally means "military court". Every Starfleet vessel is armed at all times, including science vessels and shuttlecraft and basic combat training is required of all personnel. When combat operations are required, Starfleet is the only organization within the Federation that has the capability to carry them out.
 

You’ll pardon me for considering them military. I forgot only scientists and explorers fought the Dominion on DS9, not trained soldiers.

Edited May 2 by sifth

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

16 minutes ago, sifth said:

You’ll pardon me for considering them military. I forgot only scientists and explorers fought the Dominion on DS9, not trained soldiers.

I’m saying what Starfleet always says.  And the best Trek episodes are, in my opinion, those in which the actors are allowed to emote.  Finally, you are exaggerating “constant crying” on Discovery.

[sifth]

1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I’m saying what Starfleet always says.  And the best Trek episodes are, in my opinion, those in which the actors are allowed to emote.  Finally, you are exaggerating “constant crying” on Discovery.

Yea, but if you look up what a military is, you’d know they very much are one, for the many reasons I listed above. If they’re not military, then they’re military adjacent. 
 

Listen, if you like Discovery I’m happy for you and honestly don’t want to mock your opinion, because I honestly view that as wrong. I only saw 3, seasons of the show myself and couldn’t bring myself to watch more, because I knew I would just be hate watching it. In the 3 seasons I saw, I did notice a lot more crying, than in any other Trek show I’ve seen before. That’s the only point I was trying to make. 
 

Sorry if I came off as a jerk in some of my earlier posts, I’ve just been having a week.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

4 minutes ago, sifth said:

Sorry if I came off as a jerk in some of my earlier posts, I’ve just been having a week.

You didn’t.  And I hear you.  It has been a week for me too.  I sincerely hope yours improves.  I enjoyed the last three seasons of Discovery more than I enjoyed the first two.  

I still really enjoy Lower Decks and SNW.

[sifth]

1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

You didn’t.  And I hear you.  It has been a week for me too.  I sincerely hope yours improves.  I enjoyed the last three seasons of Discovery more than I enjoyed the first two.  

I still really enjoy Lower Decks and SNW.

Thanks, and I hope yours does as well. I agree Lower Decks and SNW’s have both been great 

[IheartIheartTesla]

The bathos doesnt bother me as much as the galaxy-ending crisis every season dealt with, and the intrepid Disco crew were the only ones who could handle it.

For some reason Paul Stamets (the mycelial scientist) is showing up on my FB feeds a lot. Believe he just did a podcast with Rogan, that might be it.

[fionwe1987]

It may be worth pointing out that the idea people in the military need to be unemotional robots who can't show emotion if they want to be "professional" is a pretty modern, and utterly stupid, idea. And is tied to the epidemic of PTSD and other trauma related disorders, which doesn't seem particularly professional, or useful, to me.

Discovery is running at a time when, as a society, we're questioning assumptions about what professionalism is. Whether its the way you do your hair, or whether you emote at work when things get emotional, I think its just fine that Discovery felt free to explore that. 

Strange New Worlds also has flouted the "no crying" BS, and I'm just fine with it.

S5 does seem to break the galaxy-ending crisis fixation, kind of. But it also feels like a very rushed ending to the show, and with some major characters from the Bridge inexplicably replaced, probably for cost reasons. 

[Werthead]

On 5/1/2024 at 2:27 PM, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I just finished Star Trek: Discovery season 4.  I really liked it.  It think it captures the spirit of the original series where problems are talked through, where hope is a good thing, where we stive to make the Universe… better.

It surprises me, not a whit, that the “Pew Pew Bros” complain it is “too woke” and too “touchy feely”.  That was good Trek.

Seasons 3 and 4 of Discovery have been fine, with the caveat that the resolution to Season 3 was dumb as a box of frogs, but the season up to that point was solid. I also liked the kind-of-Iain-Banks-ish direction the far future Federation was going in.

A lot of the weaknesses Discovery had are shared by Strange New Worlds, but it seems to get a pass on those things because of Anson Mount's hair.

I do agree that Discovery does have the characters acting very casually for no apparent reason, often annoyingly. Earlier Trek shows did have the characters crying but usually in moments of extreme duress (Troi when Tasha died, Picard when turned into a Borg and breaking down in front of his brother etc). Burnham's Batman/Littlefinger voice in the later seasons is also bizarre.