Did Mirri Maz Dur actually poison Khal Drogo?

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On 7/30/2023 at 4:14 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I just reread that section of AGoT and noticed that what she does sounds like legit treatment, which Drogo promptly ignores. Like, I am no wound expert, but I do know the things Drogo does sound like things that could lead to infection. Also Drogo’s wounds are described by Dany and they do sound..semi-more severe than I remembered. 

Now to be clear I do think MMD killed Rhaego…but also she told Daenerys not to enter the tent….like…did MMD actually do anything that maliciously actually, or did she just follow first Drogo’s orders (it was not Daenerys who ordered MMD to treat him, which I think is confused because the show made it that way, but rather Drogo himself) and then Daenerys’s orders (which to be fair, I kind of understand Daenerys, her power basically came from Drogo previous to her dragon’s births. I can understand her desperation to not be in the Dosh Khaleen).  

Anyways, opinions? 

Dany smothered him with a pillow .

[Walda]

On 8/6/2023 at 8:01 AM, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

Dany smothered him with a pillow .

Not a trivial answer. Mirri kept Drogo (and Dany) alive. Dany killed Drogo.

I think the book shows Mirri Maz Duur offering the best treatment she could give, clearly better than that offered by Maester Pycelle, or Colemon, or even Luwin. 

For all her training in medicine and magic, Mirri is firstly Godswife of the temple of the Great Shepherd, who guards the flocks of men.

Quote

“All men are one flock, or so we are taught,” replied Mirri Maz Duur. “The Great Shepherd sent me to earth to heal his lambs, wherever I might find them.”

...

“Remember, maegi, as the khal fares, so shall you.”

“As you say, rider,” the woman answered him, gathering up her jars and bottles. “The Great Shepherd guards the flock.”

(AGoT Ch61 Daenerys VII)

The cultural difference between Qotho's threat and Mirri's reply is why I think Mirri was aware it was likely Drogo would ignore her advice and seek the healing of his own people. Because the Dothraki believe in the supremacy of their own race, which was anathema to her religion. But she also knew that she would fare as he did, regardless. Including regardless of what she might know of the future from her maegi skills.

When she mocked Drogo's beliefs by quoting his reprimand to Dany, adding sadly “Ask or tell, it makes no matter. He is beyond a healer’s skills.” (AGoT Ch64 Daenerys VIII), she knew that she would be dead by the morning also, if she did not "save" him. 

She warns Dany that blood magic has a hard price. That it was not a matter of gold or horses. That only death can pay for life. The Dothraki may value the horses they ride above those of the slaves they trade, but Mirri views each human life as equal to the other, and not as a medium of exchange, like gold, or a horse.

The death is the death of khal's bloodline as well as his heir, the prophesied Stallion that Mounts the World. 

Eroeh, of Mirri's own people, bears the death of the horse, but flees when the red powder is cast on the brazier. That is a hint to Dany that the rite was only beginning, and the sacrifice had not yet been made.

Dany feels Eroeh's fear. Mirri then explicitly warned Dany before the spell started that Dany must also leave, that no-one must enter the tent when she starts to sing, that the dead will dance and no man should look upon them.

This is the point in the narrative where Drogo's bloodriders bring the Hairless Men. Too little, too late. Perhaps on the day of the battle the eunuchs would have done as well as Mirri at extracting the arrow, cleaning and sewing the arakh wound on his chest, but Drogo sent them to attend to more seriously wounded warriors on that day, and his bloodriders saw no need to fetch them when he decided to risk the maegi's practice.

So the eunuchs arrive long after Drogo has fallen from his horse - when his horse is dead. When Mirri claims he will die before the sun rises, no matter what healing arts they employ. 

The point at which the wound became infected was most likely six days before then, when Khal Drogo had the strength to tear off the fireseed and lambskin plaster, before the ten days of healing were up, and had the herbwomen of his khalassar make him a soothing plaster of fig leaf and river mud to soothe the burn.

The mud was from the Skahazdan (or a tributary of it - we know the khalassar is following the river downstream south-east to Meereen), and it is unusually full of bloodfly maggots from the rotting carcasses of sheep that had been floating down it from the town Khal Ogo sacked the week before. Mirri's town.

The Dothraki herb women didn't factor in the temporary eutrophication of the river system from the battle, or its effect on bacteria, water quality, and bloodfly eggs. 

Drogo's herb women also set about making him milk of the poppy to dull any pain. Other than the firey pain (of inflammation, the body's way of protecting itself) there are no signs of infection when he rips Mirri's plaster off. Why should we suppose she is to blame for the results, when he had been using the medicines of his own people exclusively for almost a week before infection was detected? (And even then, the deterioration of Drogo's health was ignored by his bloodriders, and the herb women he continued to get painkillers from raised no alarm either.) 

Mirri knew better, and had explicitly advised him better, but while he used the healing skills of his own people at the head of the Khalassar, she was trudging along with the other slaves at the very back. Nobody consulted her until after he is falling off his horse, being consumed alive by flies. The deep wound to his shoulder from the arrowhead that Mirri had also attended, but the herb women had ignored, had healed well and was not an issue by that time. It got a leaf plaster, but not the green paste, or the red, or the stiches. Or the herb-womens' mud plaster.  Drogo ended up with a big scar the way his herb women treated the chest wound, too.

I suspect that the superficial wound, with the large surface area, on an area of his chest that was going to pull a lot while he rode and it healed, and had to stretch to cover the missing nipple, was going to lead to a big scar even if it had been sewn by the eunuchs. Especially if they had cauterised it then sewn it.

This isn't the only time Mirri's advice is ignored. When it comes to the birth, Dany promised Mirri that nobody would enter the tent. Dany seems to have lapsed into unconsciousness or at least shut her eyes when her first contractions came and Jorah brought her thither.

Dany uttered no word of warning to Jorah. Perhaps she was not able to - from her own point of view she tried to stop him, but he couldn't hear or understand her.

But that would be reading Dany's point of view the way Dany does. I don't. It seems to me that after Dany had the second dragon dream, the one without Viserys, she immediately started testing Ser Jorah, to see if Viserys's Kingsguard could be undermined. And pretty much straight away learnt that she could. She very quickly has Jorah as her own protector and ally against Viserys, in all but name.

Then, when they are deep in the Dothraki Sea, she uses Doreah's sex tricks to ensure Drogo is bound more strongly to her. Also, by being the mother of his son, creating a blood tie stronger than that he had with his bloodriders, certainly stronger than the bond to her brother and the promises that were her bride price.

She doesn't allow herself to think so, but she was complicit in Viserys's death. After his death, she does not give up on the plan to reclaim the Iron Throne, in spite of her more realistic estimation of the love of her smallfolk. She pesters her husband to turn West and cross the sea and claim the Iron Throne for her son. With Viserys dead, she would be his regent. As the last Targaryen, it's her right.

It took the encounter with the wineseller to convince Drogo. Observe, we never get to find out if the wine he offered her was really poisoned. But then, in spite of his promises, Drogo did not immediately turn west, either. He kept heading South East, to the Lhazareen river.

Jorah spun this as getting ten thousand slaves that they could trade in Meereen for ships. He emphasized the children that could get a good price as bedslaves, de-emphasized the Dothraki warriors that could get a good price in the fighting pits. Dany did not know that Yunkai was the city that specalised in bedslaves, but Jorah did. I don't think Dany or Jorah really know or care what was going on between Drogo and Ogo, why Drogo was determined to go east. It doesn't seem to me to be related to Westeros and the Iron Throne at all. Drogo is still resistant to the idea of ships, and still heading south east.

Dany could have deterred her husband from killing her brother and King with a word, but she did not speak it. 

She could have asked Drogo to keep Mirri's plaster, or summoned Mirri back, but she did not. She watched his troubled sleep and increasing pain for days before he fell from his horse. He fell from his horse when only she was close enough to witness, and he fell when she reached out and touched his arm (Touched? Pulled? Pushed?)

She gave orders to his bloodriders that directly contradicted what he was saying ("My horse...no, must ride, no"), pretending that her husband had fallen asleep when he is struggling to speak without revealing his vulnerability to his bloodriders (who pretty much straight away tell everyone Jorah speaks to that the Khal has fallen from his horse)

Terribly convenient how all these little choices of Dany's result in her being the Last Targaryen, speaking for the mighty Khal of the greatest Khalassar on the Dothraki Sea,  and above all, hatching live dragons from the stone eggs, a project that has obsessed her, but that she shared with no-one.

From Dany's point of view, she was not concious during the (vaginal, not c-section) birth of her child. She had been in a fever, dreaming. Coming in and out of conciousness three or four times after the birth, but before she learnt its outcome.

When Dany woke after the birth, Jorah is still there. Mirri is there too. Mirri has tended her through the fever and brought her back alive. She did not use the time to leave, though plenty of others did. She did not leave Dany's side, though her own life was under threat by staying. She served Dany as midwife when the Dothraki midwives would not touch her.

We can see here that Mirri gives better care than many maesters. Maester Colemon gives SweetRobin a very similar medicine to the milk drink with something bitter in it. The difference is Mirri knows what it does, what the correct dose is, when to administer it. She follows it up with sweetwine, not sweetsleep. And, unlike the green stuff Maester Luwin gives to Bran, it delivers dreamless sleep. 

The red powder she puts on the brazier seems to me similar to the one Melisandre adds to her brazier before she throws the kingsblood leeches onto it. Perhaps it just makes the flames leap, or covers the smell of burning blood. Or perhaps it is part of the magic, altering the perceptions of the observer.

I personally think Mirri did her best to bring Rheago into the world in one piece, if not alive. If we look at the Targaryen line, there is a history of miscarriages, of babies stillborn with wings and tails, black and dead. The deformities and the early birth are not necessarily caused by Mirri and her magic. They might be caused by Dany and her Targaryen inheritance. Or she might have contracted typhus from Drogo, and those kicks of  Rheago's that Dany thinks of as proof of his strength, might signal foetal distress as her unborn son fights his own fever.

There are parrallels between Dany's fever dream of Rheago and Varamyr's memory of the death of Orell's eagle, that Melisandre claimed was due to the fiery talons of R'hollr. Which implies Mirri did some magic in the tent that burnt Rheago or his changling out- but Mirri did it to keep Drogo and Dany alive, and warned Dany she would do, though Dany chose to ignore her and misinterpret her warning.

Mirri took one life. Quaro and Drogo's bloodriders were not her kills. The horse died at Mirri's hand, but as Dany pointed out, the Dothraki kill horses, Khal Drogo killed a stallion for its heart - no murder in their culture, or hers.

Dany is alive, and still fertile, thanks to Mirri (Though she choses to believe that Mirri told her she was barren). None of this reads like betrayal to me. 

Not that Mirri has sworn allegience to her. Mirri has been taken as a slave. Being claimed by Dany doesn't mean she isn't raped and kicked and punched and given credible death threats to Dany's face. From Mirri's appearance when she comes to serve again, what happens at the back of the Khalassar, behind Dany's back, isn't better than that.

Mirri's village is as sacked, her people as dead, her flock as scattered, as if she were not "saved", as if she were anyone else's slave.

When Drogo dies, at Dany's hand, Mirri dies too. Dany hears her scream. But Dany misinterprets everything Mirri does. I personally believe that Mirri gifted Dany's dragons her Moonsingers birthing spell, and the magic that had burnt Rhaego out of Dany, also made the dragon eggs hot enough, animate enough to hatch.

That, and Mirri's life of course. Drogo and the horse are not sacrifices, they are dead already, and as Mirri explained:

Quote

“It is not enough to kill a horse,” she told Dany. “By itself, the blood is nothing. You do not have the words to make a spell, nor the wisdom to find them. Do you think bloodmagic is a game for children?

 (AGoT, Ch 72 Daenerys X)

Only that time, Dany listened.

Later, when Dany is musing over what she learnt from the undying, she decides Mirri Maz Duur committed treason - for saving the lives of the Khal of the Dothraki, and the true Queen of Westeros, even though Mirri is not a subject of either of them, enslaved by both.

Dany remembers her treachery, although Mirri consorted with no enemy of hers or Drogo to undermine either. Dany remembers that Mirri killed Drogo, even though she did it herself, with a cushion, in spite of Mirri's success in keeping him alive.

You know, some stroke patients make remarkable progress in the 3 months after they are treated for it. They might be blind, unreactive, witless in the first days, but they learn to walk, talk, enjoy their friend and interests with a bit of time and physio. Drogo was already able to walk and swallow by the time Dany recovered after the birth. But Dany wasn't going to be waiting around hoping his recovery would continue at this rapid pace. Dany murdered Drogo and Mirri. Then claimed Mirri murdered Drogo "for blood", for revenge. Both Mirri and Drogo died without bloodshed.

Mirri knew she was going to burn on the khal's funeral pyre. Dany sometimes claims because Mirri murdered her husband and son for vengeance. Mirri let her think so, but Mirri knew the words that would wake the dragons, and how would the birth of dragons, and the rise of Dany as the Mother of Dragons serve Mirri's vengence? 

Mirri didn't contradict Dany, is all. Mirri was Dany's slave, from when Dany claimed her, to the day she died. Immediately after Dany orders Mirri be bound hand and foot, doused in oil, and put on Drogo's funeral bier, Dany frees all the slaves that remain in the khalassar, except Mirri.

The medicines Mirri administered were not poisoning anything but bacteria at the time they were applied. The Khal had been fit and strong, but discomforted and annoyed by her treatments. He started sickening with gangrene and fever days after he rejected her practice for that of the herb women. 

Mirri was able to arrest the gangrene and break his fever, although Drogo was as unseeing and speechless as he had been when he had the fever. She didn't poison him. She gave him life.

She also saved Dany's life by removing the gangrenous stillborn entirely. She also was able to preserve Dany's fertility. She also successfully midwifed Dany's three dragons, and prophesied Khal Drogo would be his khal warrior self when he from the shadowlands (or perhaps, she just prophesised he would return, not that he would be as he was).

Mirri clearly didn't poison Drogo. His herb women and their river mud plasters did, accidentally.

 

[SeanF]

Dany was in no position to save Viserys, once he threatened to cut her child out of her stomach (and why should she?). No Khal would tolerate such an affront.

Mirri brought back Drogo comatose, and killed Rhaego.  She’s gloating to Daenerys about both, afterwards.  She never claims that Drogo will recover, nor that she was acting in good faith, nor that Jorah killed Rhaego by bringing Dany into the tent, as an innocent person would do.  Whatever sympathy she deserves, she’s no innocent, in this encounter, and it does no justice to her character to suggest otherwise.

And the App makes clear that she killed Rhaego.  She saw the child as Baby Hitler.

Edited August 9, 2023 by SeanF

[John Suburbs]

On 7/30/2023 at 4:14 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I just reread that section of AGoT and noticed that what she does sounds like legit treatment, which Drogo promptly ignores. Like, I am no wound expert, but I do know the things Drogo does sound like things that could lead to infection. Also Drogo’s wounds are described by Dany and they do sound..semi-more severe than I remembered. 

Now to be clear I do think MMD killed Rhaego…but also she told Daenerys not to enter the tent….like…did MMD actually do anything that maliciously actually, or did she just follow first Drogo’s orders (it was not Daenerys who ordered MMD to treat him, which I think is confused because the show made it that way, but rather Drogo himself) and then Daenerys’s orders (which to be fair, I kind of understand Daenerys, her power basically came from Drogo previous to her dragon’s births. I can understand her desperation to not be in the Dosh Khaleen).  

Anyways, opinions? 

Poisoned? Probably not. That would be too obvious. But she likely treated him with stuff that she knew would not stop the infection, and would itch and burn so bad that Drogo would rip it off making it look like he was responsible for what happened.

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

and would itch and burn so bad

Wounds itch and burn anyway though. That is why people pick at scabs, bug bites and the like.

[John Suburbs]

23 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Wounds itch and burn anyway though. That is why people pick at scabs, bug bites and the like.

Sure, but how likely is it that this is the first wound Drogo has ever taken? And would he be so nonchalant about it if it was?

Quote

The arakh cut was wide but shallow, his left nipple was gone, and a flap of bloody flesh and skin dangled from his chest like a wet rag.

"Is scratch, moon of my life, from arakh of one bloodrider to Khal Ogo

He would have known plenty of itching and burning already. The poultice was way beyond that, or he would have ignored it.

[Craving Peaches]

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Sure, but how likely is it that this is the first wound Drogo has ever taken? And would he be so nonchalant about it if it was?

Drogo's hair was uncut when he died, which suggests that he hasn't taken a lot of serious wounds, which would diminish his capability to fight. And Drogo was clearly not taking that wound seriously, he was not treating it seriously as an injury. He has everyone else attended first, is ready to just wave away/refuse treatment, and only gets it treated in the first place at Daenerys' insistence. Drogo likely saw it as superficial, being a shallow cut that didn't really need bothering with, but he gets it treated to please his wife. Later on when it gets itchy and inflamed, because it's not very serious (in his view) he just takes off the irritating poultice, viewing it as more trouble than it's worth.

[Hippocras]

On 7/30/2023 at 2:59 PM, csuszka1948 said:

Here is an interesting post:

Mirri definitely purposefully bungled the medical treatment, and wanted Drogo dead. As she says when all is said and done.

"The stallion who mounts the world will burn no cities now. His khalasar shall trample no nations into dust."

"I spoke for you," she said, anguished. "I saved you."

"Saved me?" The Lhazareen woman spat. "Three riders had taken me, not as a man takes a woman but from behind, as a dog takes a bitch. The fourth was in me when you rode past. How then did you save me? I saw my god's house burn, where I had healed good men beyond counting. My home they burned as well, and in the street I saw piles of heads. I saw the head of a baker who made my bread. I saw the head of a boy I had saved from deadeye fever, only three moons past. I heard children crying as the riders drove them off with their whips. Tell me again what you saved."

Before her reveal though, Mirri is only introduced when she intervenes after Dany had successfully ordered the eunuchs to sew up and/or cauterize Drogo's wound, which Drogo was willing to put off (but still get done after his own men had been seen to). This is the treatment Cohollo receives and he ends up perfectly fine. Because it was the correct one. As Dany, Drogo, and Cohollo all knew.

Mirri intervenes here and instead offers her own services, convincing them off the basis that she's been trained by a maester which in theory would be superior to the eunuchs. Presumably she has to have been somewhat trained to know of Marwin, a confirmed maester that was in that area, but then she doesn't give a maester's treatment. Mirri proceeds to clean his wound with alcohol, but then she STUFFS the wounds with leaves and cooking spices, sews them SHUT INTO the wound (and badly as she says it will leave a horrible scar rather than an evenly stitched one like the eunuchs leave), and then covers it with a lamb skin for a "bandage" and orders that Drogo keep the SAME lambskin on for 10 straight days rather than changing it periodically. This will very obviously cause the wound to become infected. As it did.

The excuse about "not drinking", which Drogo obviously was going to do, as presumably so did every other Dothraki, is simply there to cover up what she did by sewing fucking dirt into a wound and then covering it with more dirt. She deliberately tried to make sure his wound got 10 days worth of harmful dirt and bacteria interaction.

We also know she didn't give him the maester's treatment as, apart from the obvious unsanitary nature of what she did, but Aemon and Qyburn, on Jon and Jaime's wounds respectively, both show us the exact same method that the maesters obviously use for wounds and preventing infection. Both of them clean the wound with boiled wine, cauterize/cut off the bad flesh, make a poultice of nettle, mustard seed and moldy bread, and then regularly change the bandages with new ones. We know the maester treatment for Drogo's wound that Marwyn would've taught her, and we know Mirri did not do that.

Mirri 100% purposefully infected Drogo. She wanted him dead for what he'd done. As she literally says in the first quote.

As to your own topic, your own quotes just further prove she knew exactly what she was doing. She was present for all of the times to prove that killing Drogo would have the most devastating consequences to those who'd harmed her and her village. If Drogo dies then Qotho at least for sure was going to start murdering among his khalasar, and we literally did see many of the Dothraki simply break off to start their own khalasars (which will mean fighting among themselves). Rather than show what she needs to do to keep Dany in power, it shows exactly what she needs to do to ruin them. Drogo is all that's keeping things together, and Drogo's who led these men to ruin her and her Lambs lives. So obviously she'll take out Drogo.

Hence why she interrupted his treatment from the eunuchs.

I don't blame Mirri at all for wanting revenge, but she absolutely did purposefully fuck over Dany.

I feel like this answer has been ignored by later posts, but I consider it quite definitive.

[John Suburbs]

On 8/11/2023 at 10:59 AM, Craving Peaches said:

Drogo's hair was uncut when he died, which suggests that he hasn't taken a lot of serious wounds, which would diminish his capability to fight. And Drogo was clearly not taking that wound seriously, he was not treating it seriously as an injury. He has everyone else attended first, is ready to just wave away/refuse treatment, and only gets it treated in the first place at Daenerys' insistence. Drogo likely saw it as superficial, being a shallow cut that didn't really need bothering with, but he gets it treated to please his wife. Later on when it gets itchy and inflamed, because it's not very serious (in his view) he just takes off the irritating poultice, viewing it as more trouble than it's worth.

His hair was uncut because he'd never been defeated in battle, not that he'd never taken a wound. The sheer number of bells he wears is testament to the battles he has fought, and he is a fearsome warlord who isn't likely to lead from the rear. So this, plus his nonchalance over these wounds, strongly suggests that he has taken wounds before, serious ones.

Quote

One of the short arrows of the lamb men stuck through the meat of his upper arm, and blood covered the left side of his bare chest like a splash of paint.

The arakh cut was wide and shallow, his left nipple was gone, and a flap of bloody flesh and skin dangled from his chest like a we rag.

This itching and burning had to have been worse than anything else he's experienced to rip the poultice away.

[Craving Peaches]

40 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

So this, plus his nonchalance over these wounds, strongly suggests that he has taken wounds before, serious ones.

If he had taken a load of serious wounds it would diminish his ability to fight so he'd be unlikely to remain undefeated. If he was skilful he would also avoid taking a lot of serious wounds.

[John Suburbs]

21 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

If he had taken a load of serious wounds it would diminish his ability to fight so he'd be unlikely to remain undefeated. If he was skilful he would also avoid taking a lot of serious wounds.

He was perfectly fit to fight with an arrow through his arm and his nipple cut off. Just like Jaime and Qorin Half-Hand can still fight with only one hand, Dagmar Cleftjaw can fight with his face cut in half. These are tough, hard men who don't pout over a little itching and burning.

[Craving Peaches]

57 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

These are tough, hard men who don't pout over a little itching and burning.

Yes, but if he's taking wounds like that frequently, he would not remain in good shape. So it is unlikely he receives serious injuries every battle.

[BalerionTheCat]

Honestly, I don't care if she poisoned him or not. He died. And it was just one bit of justice for all those murders he is responsible for.

[Walda]

On 8/9/2023 at 10:21 PM, SeanF said:

Dany was in no position to save Viserys, once he threatened to cut her child out of her stomach (and why should she?). No Khal would tolerate such an affront.

Dany was in the position of translator of Viserys to Drogo and Drogo to Viserys.

She was in a position where she could interpret Drogo's words to Viserys as 

Quote

“He says you shall have a splendid golden crown that men shall tremble to behold.”

(AGoT Ch 46 Daenerys V)

Ignoring the bloodriders descending on him and the stillness of the hall, Viserys assumes from that, that Khal Drogo is renewing his agreement to invade the Seven Kingdoms as he comes to reclaim the wife he "bought". 

Dany knew how Viserys understood the situation. She shared his view until Jorah set her straight

Quote

“He will go as soon as he has his ten thousand. My lord husband promised a golden crown.”

Ser Jorah grunted. “Yes, Khaleesi, but ... Khal Drogo would say he had you as a gift. He will give Viserys a gift in return, yes … in his own time. You do not demand a gift, not of a khal. You do not demand anything of a khal.”

“It is not right to make him wait.”

(AGoT, Ch 36 Daenerys IV)

Then she follows up with this:

Quote

"what if it were not Viserys?” she asked. “If it were someone else who led them? Someone stronger? Could the Dothraki truly conquer the Seven Kingdoms?”

(AGoT Ch 36 Daenerys IV )

When Viserys lowered his sword and told her that he only wanted what was promised, she knew her khal was going to murder him on the spot.

She had heard that threat in her husband's words, and his bloodriders heard their instruction to seize Viserys. Yet Viserys did not, because Dany intentionally completely elides that meaning from what she communicated to him.

Dany was in a position to tell her husband that her brother wanted to attend her feast and offered the Stallion who Mounts the World his sword for Freedom. She could elide the threat in Viserys's words as easily as she did Drogo's.

Why should she? She should because Viserys is her king, and it is treachery to conspire with those that would kill him, treason not to defend him. She should because Viserys is her brother, her only living family (as far as she knows), the longest and the closest human relationship she has had with anyone (except, arguably, Rhaego), and if she doesn't speak in his defence, her husband will kill him.

-

@Hippocras, I thought I did address the areas where this post (in my opinion) misreads the text,

but for the sake of clarity, I'll go through point by point

Quote

No. Mirri definitely purposefully bungled the medical treatment, and wanted Drogo dead. As she says when all is said and done.

"The stallion who mounts the world will burn no cities now. His khalasar shall trample no nations into dust."

"I spoke for you," she said, anguished. "I saved you."

"Saved me?" The Lhazareen woman spat. "Three riders had taken me, not as a man takes a woman but from behind, as a dog takes a bitch. The fourth was in me when you rode past. How then did you save me? I saw my god's house burn, where I had healed good men beyond counting. My home they burned as well, and in the street I saw piles of heads. I saw the head of a baker who made my bread. I saw the head of a boy I had saved from deadeye fever, only three moons past. I heard children crying as the riders drove them off with their whips. Tell me again what you saved."

Before her reveal though, Mirri is only introduced when she intervenes after Dany had successfully ordered the eunuchs to sew up and/or cauterize Drogo's wound, which Drogo was willing to put off (but still get done after his own men had been seen to). This is the treatment Cohollo receives and he ends up perfectly fine. Because it was the correct one. As Dany, Drogo, and Cohollo all knew.

Mirri intervenes here and instead offers her own services, convincing them off the basis that she's been trained by a maester which in theory would be superior to the eunuchs. Presumably she has to have been somewhat trained to know of Marwin, a confirmed maester that was in that area, but then she doesn't give a maester's treatment. Mirri proceeds to clean his wound with alcohol, but then she STUFFS the wounds with leaves and cooking spices, sews them SHUT INTO the wound (and badly as she says it will leave a horrible scar rather than an evenly stitched one like the eunuchs leave), and then covers it with a lamb skin for a "bandage" and orders that Drogo keep the SAME lambskin on for 10 straight days rather than changing it periodically. This will very obviously cause the wound to become infected. As it did.

The excuse about "not drinking", which Drogo obviously was going to do, as presumably so did every other Dothraki, is simply there to cover up what she did by sewing fucking dirt into a wound and then covering it with more dirt. She deliberately tried to make sure his wound got 10 days worth of harmful dirt and bacteria interaction.

We also know she didn't give him the maester's treatment as, apart from the obvious unsanitary nature of what she did, but Aemon and Qyburn, on Jon and Jaime's wounds respectively, both show us the exact same method that the maesters obviously use for wounds and preventing infection. Both of them clean the wound with boiled wine, cauterize/cut off the bad flesh, make a poultice of nettle, mustard seed and moldy bread, and then regularly change the bandages with new ones. We know the maester treatment for Drogo's wound that Marwyn would've taught her, and we know Mirri did not do that.

Mirri 100% purposefully infected Drogo. She wanted him dead for what he'd done. As she literally says in the first quote.

As to your own topic, your own quotes just further prove she knew exactly what she was doing. She was present for all of the times to prove that killing Drogo would have the most devastating consequences to those who'd harmed her and her village. If Drogo dies then Qotho at least for sure was going to start murdering among his khalasar, and we literally did see many of the Dothraki simply break off to start their own khalasars (which will mean fighting among themselves). Rather than show what she needs to do to keep Dany in power, it shows exactly what she needs to do to ruin them. Drogo is all that's keeping things together, and Drogo's who led these men to ruin her and her Lambs lives. So obviously she'll take out Drogo.

Hence why she interrupted his treatment from the eunuchs.

I don't blame Mirri at all for wanting revenge, but she absolutely did purposefully fuck over Dany.

(u/markg171 on r/asoiaf in response to the comment "(Spoilers Extended) Becoming a Mirri Maz Duur Apologist" by u/hippocrite_deer 2 years ago)

Firstly, if Mirri wanted Drogo dead, how did he survive all her treatments?

Even Pycelle, who has difficulty controlling infection, can bungle Jon Arryn's treatment by instructing Maester Colemon to stop with the emetics. As Maester Cressen observes "men who knew how to heal also knew how to kill".

Mirri could have killed the Khal when he went into her temple, but she removed the arrow and sewed up the breast wound. Markg171 contends that she sewed putrifying agents into the wounds. But the arrow wound apparently healed just fine and there was no putrification of the breast wound or sign of Drogo weakening until after Mirri's poltice was replaced with the mud poltice of the Dothraki herbwomen.

The second time she attended the khal, Mirri needed only to wait if she wanted him dead. Instead, she mentioned blood magic. 

But not because it gave her the opportunity to kill Drogo. She held a dagger in her hand while he laid helpless in a bath before her, and slashed the horse's throat, not his.

Drogo remained alive for several weeks after the battle, was kept alive by Mirri until Dany killed him. 

The quote Markg171 offers is what Mirri replied to Dany's accusation that Mirri murdered Rhaego.

Mirri pointing out that Rheago won't be missed by the untrampled nations, and that Dany's "saving" of her was virtue signalling, is not a revelation of intent to murder Drogo. The idea that it could be a revelation is undermined by the simple fact that Drogo is still alive when Mirri says this. It isn't even an admission of killing Rheago. 

Next paragraph: Danny did not "sucessfully" order the hairless men to cauterise and sew up Drogo's wound.

Quote

“The khal sent the hairless men away, Khaleesi,” old Cohollo assured her. Dany saw the bloodrider had taken a wound himself; a deep gash in his left shoulder.

“Many riders are hurt,” Khal Drogo said stubbornly. “Let them be healed first. This arrow is no more than the bite of a fly, this little cut only a new scar to boast of to my son.”

Dany could see the muscles in his chest where the skin had been cut away. A trickle of blood ran from the arrow that pierced his arm. “It is not for Khal Drogo to wait,” she proclaimed. “Jhogo, seek out these eunuchs and bring them here at once.”

“Silver Lady,” a woman’s voice said behind her, “I can help the Great Rider with his hurts.”

...[they discuss Mirri's credentials]...

Qotho gave her a stinging slap. “We are no sheep, maegi.”

“Stop it,” Dany said angrily. “She is mine. I will not have her harmed.”

Khal Drogo grunted. “The arrow must come out, Qotho.”

“Yes, Great Rider,” Mirri Maz Duur answered, touching her bruised face. “And your breast must be washed and sewn, lest the wound fester.”

“Do it, then,” Khal Drogo commanded.

(AGoT Ch61 Daenerys VII)

The hairless men do not come at Dany's request, and Mirri cares for Drogo at his own command. 

We hear no more of Cohollo's shoulder wound. We don't know who treated it, or how, or how well it healed. We see Cohollo follow Drogo into Mirri's temple, help hold Drogo down on the alter, and leave to find Drogo's vest before the talk turns to midwifing. 

We can assume Cohollo's shoulder healed fine, because it isn't mentioned again. We can also assume Drogo's arrow wound healed fine, on the same basis. Cohollo's wound might have been tended to by the hairless men, after Drogo had got his vest. Drogo's wound might have healed if cauterised and sewn on the day of battle - Mirri hints as much when she says "There is great healing magic in fire, even your hairless men know that." But we don't see any of the eunuchs work, their sucesses or their failures.

Mirri was defending her own choice of disinfectant - the firepod and sting-me-not poltice, rather than whatever it is the hairless men used as "fire".

Mirri had explained to Dany and Jorah that she had learnt medicine firstly from her mother, who was godswife before her, and then from the mages of Asshai, where she also learnt from a moonsinger, a Dothraki herbwoman, and Maester Marwin, who also taught her the common tongue.

Markg171 focuses only on the Maester's training, as if that were the only or the most important medical training she received.

Even though a lot of what we see of the medical practice of maesters is dubious: Pycelle failing to stop wounds from festering by pouring boiled wine on them; Colemon experimenting with the sour-milk medicine that Mirri uses to break Dany's fever after the stillbirth. Cressen killing himself with the poison Melisandre knew how to ward herself against.

Mirri uses the Western technique of boiled wine to clean the wounds, she also uses a chant to remove the arrow, and poultices of sting-me-not, and for the breast, firepod paste and a sheepskin plaster to bind it and keep the dirt out.

I don't think GRRM implies that only men have effective healing methods, but Markg171 discounts all the female healing practices Mirri has learnt, and doesn't seem to consider that sting-me-not and firepod might be alternate names for nettle and mustard seed, both of which are sewn into wounds by Qyburn and Maester Aemon to good effect. 

In the book, Mirri's lambswool was not left on for ten days. While it was on, it burned and itched as promised (signs of a healing wound). So Drogo had torn it off before its healing course was run, and had a figleaf and mud plaster put on by the Dothraki herb women. Mud. Could the dirt have possibly been in the mud?

Six days of increasing signs of infection after, of restless sleep and increasingly pain-filled days, the wound is putrid and gangrenous. Markg171 just ignores the Dothraki mud plaster, and writes off the poppy wine they made as something "Drogo was obviously going to do".

On the last paragraph: Qotho saw Dany as nothing more than Drogo's woman, deriving all the power she had from him, and being nothing without him. Mirri was singled out for special helps of Qotho's brand of gendered violence, but his outbursts do not prove that he would "for sure" be murdering people in the khalassar if Drogo wasn't there to stop him. 

 Of course a khalassar of that size is going to have factions in it. Of course it is going to fracture when the strong man weakens, or is defeated, or dies. Mirri didn't need Qotho's attacks on her to know that.

Dany starts seeing Mirri as a traitor the moment Mirri describes her stillborn child as "monstrous". Dany thinks Mirri is being cruel, accuses her of cheating her, murdering her child within her. Mirri's replies are not conciliatory, but they are not admissions of guilt either.

Mirri didn't kill Drogo. Dany did. It is right there in the book

Quote

She knelt, kissed Drogo on the lips, and pressed the cushion down across his face.

(AGoT Ch 68 Daenerys IX)

If Mirri had tried to kill Drogo for vengence, she failed. Her treatments did not kill Drogo, and after Dany killed Drogo, she killed Mirri. 

The breakup of Drogo's khalassar did not give freedom to Mirri's townsfolk. Most of the slaves are taken by Jhaqo and Pono. Eroeh had her throat cut by Mago. The ones that were freed, were freed by Dany, on the day Mirri died, or when Dany attacked the slave cities they were sold in. And of course, her town is as sacked, the dead as dead, the raped as raped, as they were before this "vengence" that only enables Jhaqo and Pono in the short term.

After Dany murders Mirri, she tells herself repeatedly that Mirri murdered Drogo and Rhaego "for blood", that Mirri was immolated because she "betrayed" Dany. That Mirri made her barren, or said she would never give birth to a living child. Even though she knows that Mirri did not kill Drogo, she tells herself these things. 

Qotho blamed Mirri for Drogo's festering wound, even though he knew that she had been in the slave column while Drogo was being cared for by Dothraki healers. That might justify his violence towards her in his mind, or maintain his faith in the superiority of Dothraki healers, but his accusations are not proof that Mirri had blundered, or intentionally harmed Drogo, any more than Dany's.

This argument just isn't based on a close reading of the text.

[SeanF]

25 minutes ago, Walda said:

Dany was in the position of translator of Viserys to Drogo and Drogo to Viserys.

She was in a position where she could interpret Drogo's words to Viserys as 

(AGoT Ch 46 Daenerys V)

Ignoring the bloodriders descending on him and the stillness of the hall, Viserys assumes from that, that Khal Drogo is renewing his agreement to invade the Seven Kingdoms as he comes to reclaim the wife he "bought". 

Dany knew how Viserys understood the situation. She shared his view until Jorah set her straight

(AGoT, Ch 36 Daenerys IV)

Then she follows up with this:

(AGoT Ch 36 Daenerys IV )

When Viserys lowered his sword and told her that he only wanted what was promised, she knew her khal was going to murder him on the spot.

She had heard that threat in her husband's words, and his bloodriders heard their instruction to seize Viserys. Yet Viserys did not, because Dany intentionally completely elides that meaning from what she communicated to him.

Dany was in a position to tell her husband that her brother wanted to attend her feast and offered the Stallion who Mounts the World his sword for Freedom. She could elide the threat in Viserys's words as easily as she did Drogo's.

Why should she? She should because Viserys is her king, and it is treachery to conspire with those that would kill him, treason not to defend him. She should because Viserys is her brother, her only living family (as far as she knows), the longest and the closest human relationship she has had with anyone (except, arguably, Rhaego), and if she doesn't speak in his defence, her husband will kill him.

-

 

You're overlooking that he'd just threatened to murder her and her child (as well as spending years abusing her, sexually and otherwise).  And, you're expecting a 14 year old girl to not only forgive that threat, as if she were Patient Griselda, but also to lie to her husband.  This in a world where every woman is taught that her husband is her lord and master.  A woman's duty to her husband comes before her duty to anybody else.

Once Viserys sold her to Drogo, (telling her he'd let her be gang-raped too) he lost any right to her allegiance.  And, he lost it even more once he threatened to murder her and her child.

Drogo could see as well as everyone else that Viserys was threatening his wife.  He was feasting with the other khals.  It is a capital offence to draw steel in Vaes Dothrak, and absolutely no khal would tolerate a threat to his wife, especially in front of his fellows.

Viserys' death is 100% Viserys' own fault.

Edited August 16, 2023 by SeanF

[John Suburbs]

22 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yes, but if he's taking wounds like that frequently, he would not remain in good shape. So it is unlikely he receives serious injuries every battle.

I never said every battle. But he would not so nonchalantly brush these wounds off if he'd never experienced anything even close before. He knows what pain and discomfort is, and this poultice is pushing it to an extreme -- otherwise he would have ignored it. Even ammonia on a wound stings at first, but then subsides. This was getting worse and worse -- aggravating the wound, not healing it.