Valyrian Steel Weapons are a Red Herring

[Maegor_the_Cool]

I don’t think the VS weapons will actually work against the Others. 
 

Looking at the forging of Lightbringer, we see Azor Ahai failed twice before finally succeeding. We know that the Valyrians were aware of this story, and I believe the forging of Valyrian Steel is meant to mimic this story or even be attempts to replicate Lightbringer. But the amount of weapons in the world indicates to me that the Valyrians likely didn’t sacrifice people they truly loved, what would be a true sacrifice.
 

Instead they likely sacrificed slaves. They are confirmed to have done so in the mines, why should the forges be different? I believe they can and probably do work on Wights but will fall short against the Others. They pale imitations of Lightbriner, forged from the murders of slaves, not sacrifices of one the forged loved.

[astarkchoice]

I think its more the steel.is forged with magic dragonflame which is the key

In qohor dark magic  blood sacrifice is needed to compensate for that

[csuszka1948]

This is not evidence that they don't work against the Others, just that they are not Lightbringer.

Lightbinger is probably Drogon:

“He told me the moon was an egg, Khaleesi,” the Lysene girl said. “Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand thousand dragons poured forth, and drank the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame. One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons will return.“

“The third time, with a heavy heart, for he knew beforehand what he must do to finish the blade, he worked for a hundred days and nights until it was finished. This time, he called for his wife, Nissa Nissa, and asked her to bare her breast. He drove his sword into her breast, her soul combining with the steel of the sword, creating Lightbringer, while her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon.”

“She heard a crack, the sound of shattering stone. The platform of wood and brush and grass began to shift and collapse in upon itself. Bits of burning wood slid down at her, and Dany was showered with ash and cinders. And something else came crashing down, bouncing and rolling, to land at her feet; a chunk of curved rock, pale and veined with gold, broken and smoking [salt and smoke]. The roaring filled the world, yet dimly through the firefall Dany heard women shriek and children cry out in wonder.                                                                                                      Only death can pay for life.                                                                                                                                                  And there came a second crack, loud and sharp as thunder, and the smoke stirred and whirled around her and the pyre shifted, the logs exploding as the fire touched their secret hearts. She heard the screams of frightened horses, and the voices of the Dothraki raised in shouts of fear and terror, and Ser Jorah calling her name and cursing. No, she wanted to shout to him, no, my good knight, do not fear for me. The fire is mine. I am Daenerys Stormborn, daughter of dragons, bride of dragons, mother of dragons, don’t you see? Don’t you SEE? With a belch of flame and smoke that reached thirty feet into the sky, the pyre collapsed and came down around her. Unafraid, Dany stepped forward into the firestorm, calling to her children.                                                                                                                                          The third crack was as loud and sharp as the breaking of the world.”

“In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him.”

“When your dragons were small they were a wonder. Grown, they are death and devastation, a flaming sword above the world.”

"The Jade Compendium. The pages that told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife’s blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame."

"You’re lazy,” she told him, scratching under his jaw. His scales were hot to the touch, like armor left too long in the sun. Dragons are fire made flesh. "

“There is a reason. A dragon is no slave.” And Dany swept the lash down as hard as she could across the slaver’s face. Kraznys screamed and staggered back, the blood running red down his cheeks into his perfumed beard. The harpy’s fingers had torn his features half to pieces with one slash, but she did not pause to contemplate the ruin. “Drogon,” she sang out loudly, sweetly, all her fear forgotten. “Dracarys.” The black dragon spread his wings and roared. A lance of swirling dark flame took Kraznys full in the face. His eyes melted and ran down his cheeks, and the oil in his hair and beard burst so fiercely into fire that for an instant the slaver wore a burning crown twice as tall as his head.”

Edited August 7, 2023 by csuszka1948

[Maegor_the_Cool]

13 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

This is not evidence that they don't work against the Others, just that they are not Lightbringer.

Lightbinger is probably Drogon:

“He told me the moon was an egg, Khaleesi,” the Lysene girl said. “Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand thousand dragons poured forth, and drank the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame. One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons will return.“

“The third time, with a heavy heart, for he knew beforehand what he must do to finish the blade, he worked for a hundred days and nights until it was finished. This time, he called for his wife, Nissa Nissa, and asked her to bare her breast. He drove his sword into her breast, her soul combining with the steel of the sword, creating Lightbringer, while her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon.”

“She heard a crack, the sound of shattering stone. The platform of wood and brush and grass began to shift and collapse in upon itself. Bits of burning wood slid down at her, and Dany was showered with ash and cinders. And something else came crashing down, bouncing and rolling, to land at her feet; a chunk of curved rock, pale and veined with gold, broken and smoking [salt and smoke]. The roaring filled the world, yet dimly through the firefall Dany heard women shriek and children cry out in wonder.                                                                                                      Only death can pay for life.                                                                                                                                                  And there came a second crack, loud and sharp as thunder, and the smoke stirred and whirled around her and the pyre shifted, the logs exploding as the fire touched their secret hearts. She heard the screams of frightened horses, and the voices of the Dothraki raised in shouts of fear and terror, and Ser Jorah calling her name and cursing. No, she wanted to shout to him, no, my good knight, do not fear for me. The fire is mine. I am Daenerys Stormborn, daughter of dragons, bride of dragons, mother of dragons, don’t you see? Don’t you SEE? With a belch of flame and smoke that reached thirty feet into the sky, the pyre collapsed and came down around her. Unafraid, Dany stepped forward into the firestorm, calling to her children.                                                                                                                                          The third crack was as loud and sharp as the breaking of the world.”

“In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him.”

“When your dragons were small they were a wonder. Grown, they are death and devastation, a flaming sword above the world.”

"The Jade Compendium. The pages that told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife’s blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame."

"You’re lazy,” she told him, scratching under his jaw. His scales were hot to the touch, like armor left too long in the sun. Dragons are fire made flesh. "

“There is a reason. A dragon is no slave.” And Dany swept the lash down as hard as she could across the slaver’s face. Kraznys screamed and staggered back, the blood running red down his cheeks into his perfumed beard. The harpy’s fingers had torn his features half to pieces with one slash, but she did not pause to contemplate the ruin. “Drogon,” she sang out loudly, sweetly, all her fear forgotten. “Dracarys.” The black dragon spread his wings and roared. A lance of swirling dark flame took Kraznys full in the face. His eyes melted and ran down his cheeks, and the oil in his hair and beard burst so fiercely into fire that for an instant the slaver wore a burning crown twice as tall as his head.”

My major Hang up with Drogon being lightbringer is that the first men didn’t have dragons

[TheBlackSwan]

Or maybe the legend is just a romanticized version of what really happened.
There was no wife offering her bosom, sacrificing herself to make this magical steel. It was a human sacrifice, the person certainly not being okay to die, but the facts are romanticized by the religion's priests to paint what happened in a better light so as not to show the one they consider their savior to be a horrible person. We have no reason to believe that these events took place as the priests, the religious texts claim, they are not objective.

[kissdbyfire]

5 minutes ago, TheBlackSwan said:

Or maybe the legend is just a romanticized version of what really happened.
There was no wife offering her bosom, sacrificing herself to make this magical steel. It was a human sacrifice, the person certainly not being okay to die, but the facts are romanticized by the religion's priests to paint what happened in a better light so as not to show the one they consider their savior to be a horrible person. We have no reason to believe that these events took place as the priests, the religious texts claim, they are not objective.

I’m not a fan of AA; I basically believe this is a red herring character: not at all a hero. That said, if Lightbringer is an actual sword, then Nissa Nissa must have been willing to go along w/ it since, IMO, only a self-sacrifice is “true” (works). 

[csuszka1948]

56 minutes ago, Jon Snowfyre said:

My major Hang up with Drogon being lightbringer is that the first men didn’t have dragons

 

 

 

We don't know what exactly happened in the age of heroes. They may have used dragons to fight Others, but they died out and were remembered as 'lightbringer' that 'darkness flees from'. It certainly makes a great deal more sense than a literal sword, Dany mercy killing her husband Drogo (Nissa Nissa gender subversion) and creating Lightbringer before Stannis even tried is a proper subversion. (Lightbringer being Night's Watch is another interesting interpretation, it just lacks textual support)

Edited August 7, 2023 by csuszka1948

[Tyrosh Lannister]

12 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

I think its more the steel.is forged with magic dragonflame which is the key

In qohor dark magic  blood sacrifice is needed to compensate for that

Is there any evidence dragonfire can kill others 

[astarkchoice]

16 minutes ago, Tyrosh Lannister said:

Is there any evidence dragonfire can kill others 

Other than magic flame vs magic ice no 

Im assuming thats what grmm is building towards though

[Tyrosh Lannister]

3 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Other than magic flame vs magic ice no 

Im assuming thats what grmm is building towards though

I think that's going to happen too, but I hope it doesn't 

[astarkchoice]

5 minutes ago, Tyrosh Lannister said:

I think that's going to happen too, but I hope it doesn't 

Ok

But yeah id assumed the fire magic part of their forging is why they kill , the dragonglass/obsidian being forged in incredible hedat may be why it can kill othhers

[Loose Bolt]

I assume major reason why Valyrian Steel would hurt Others is that unlike normal weapons VS weapons will not broke when they are used against White Walkers. Or Others cannot broke them like they would do to any other normal weapons that would be used against them. So VS would be very effective against White Walkers.

[Maegor_the_Cool]

2 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

I assume major reason why Valyrian Steel would hurt Others is that unlike normal weapons VS weapons will not broke when they are used against White Walkers. Or Others cannot broke them like they would do to any other normal weapons that would be used against them. So VS would be very effective against White Walkers.

I think they won’t work. I think Jon may lose Longclaw in an altercation with one when an Other shatters it. Which is when I think he’ll get Dawn

 

[Castellan]

I think the combination of the extra strong Valyrian steel swords, wielded by an undead person like Beric, (or Jon, Jaime or Brienne depending on future events) would work as a lightbringer, would not be shattered by the icy swords of the Others and could carry fire into their bodies to destroy them. Swordplay would still be involved because it would depend on whether the icy sword or the fiery sword was the first to pierce the opponent's defences. Or perhaps it needs to pierce their hearts.

Or it could be that the VS swords, or a VS sword,  in particular is useful against the great Other. We know a dragonglass dagger killed an Other so dragonglass daggers or arrowheads are another weapon. Is there something unique about Lightbringer/s compared with Dragonglass? Is it to use against the Great Other?

[TheBlackSwan]

39 minutes ago, Castellan said:

We know a dragonglass dagger killed an Other so dragonglass daggers or arrowheads are another weapon. Is there something unique about Lightbringer/s compared with Dragonglass? Is it to use against the Great Other?

Apart from being man-made (not volcanic glass like obsidian) and made of steel, Lightbringer and obsidian have the same powers.

Martin said there is a reason why obsidian is call "dragonglass" and that he had given obsidian magical properties. We can see that in the scene where Sam kills the Other with the dragonglass dagger.

Quote

Sam rolled onto his side, eyes wide as the Other shrank and puddled, dissolving away. In twenty heartbeats its flesh was gone, swirling away in a fine white mist. Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny, and they were melting too. Finally only the dragonglass dagger remained, wreathed in steam as if it were alive and sweating. Grenn bent to scoop it up and flung it down again at once. "Mother, that's cold."

"Obsidian." Sam struggled to his knees. "Dragonglass, they call it. Dragonglass. Dragon glass." He giggled, and cried, and doubled over to heave his courage out onto the snow.
 A Storm of Swords - Samwell I

From that scene we can see what the dragonglass can do:

• Generate heat, burn in contact with an Other
• Kill an Other, melting him
• Once the Other gone, the obsidian turns back cold and remains intact

We know from other characters that obsidian is link to fire magic, it can generate fire, can burn without deteriorating:

Quote

"Half a year gone, that man could scarcely wake fire from dragonglass."
 A Clash of Kings - Daenerys III

Quote

"Dragonglass." The red woman's laugh was music. "Frozen fire, in the tongue of old Valyria. Small wonder it is anathema to these cold children of the Other."
 A Storm of Swords - Samwell V

Quote

"... obsidian," said the other man in the room, a pale, fleshy, pasty-faced young fellow with round shoulders, soft hands, close-set eyes, and food stains on his robes.
"Call it dragonglass." Archmaester Marwyn glanced at the candle for a moment. "It burns but is not consumed."
"What feeds the flame?" asked Sam.
"What feeds a dragon's fire?" Marwyn seated himself upon a stool.
 A Feast for Crows - Samwell V

So obsidian is glass that can generate fire like dragon and that's why it's call "dragonglass". Its fire magic powers can kill the magical ice demons.
Dragonglass is too brittle to be useful against enemies with weapons strong enough to strike steel, the glass would shatter, as demonstrated in the scene where Sam tried to stab Small Paul with the obsidian dagger: the dagger shattered against the chain mail.
It would therefore be logical to transfer obsidian's powers to a more resistant weapon, one made of steel.
Sam found one tale of the Last Hero slaying the Others with a blade of "dragonsteel".
By the name and the fact that it could kill the Others it's fair to assume that "dragonsteel" is a steel that that can generate fire like a dragon, a steel that has the same powers as obsidian.
So the Last Hero blade would be a blade that can generate heat, when stabbing an Other, the Other would melt. A blade that generate is also the perfect counter to the Other's blades made of ice since those blades will frost regular steel but a blade heated would melt that frost...
Here's how Lightbringer is describe:

Quote

 

The pages that told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife's blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame."

Clydas blinked. "A sword that makes its own heat …"
A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

 

A blade that generate heat, burn into battle (against the Others and their blades of ice) and melt a demon (an Other).
Lightbringer is name given to the dragonsteel sword of the Last Hero.
The hero that R'hllorist claims to be their god's champion, Azor Ahai, is in fact the Last Hero. The Nissa Nissa tale? It's what the Last Hero did after his sword shattered when he faced the Others, he made a special to be able to fight them.
Dragonsteel is a steel rooted in fire and blood magic.
Their is only one magical steel link to fire and blood magic in the story: Valyrian steel.