Balon Greyjoy is such a terrible father

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

Even in a book of terrible parenting, blaming your child for being a hostage BECAUSE OF ACTIONS YOU TOOK, is truly despicable. How everyone treats Theon in the Iron Islands is seriously crazed. Like, try to imagine if Theon didn’t act like a fraternity bro through most of ACoK. Would Balon act differently? I think no. Would Asha? Perhaps a little, but ultimately not really? Aeron? Probably not. Like they treat Theon like HE is to blame for the circumstances of him being a hostage, when it was THEIR fault (particularly Balon). 

I don’t know, I just read Balon and Theon’s reunion and it’s truly despicable. He yells at Theon because he called Robb a brother, when he is treating Theon like an enemy FROM THE GET GO. If he expects Theon to honor his brothers, try treating him like a family member dick. Honestly, at least when it comes to how he treats his child, he kind of reaches Tywin-like levels of awfulness, we just as an audience empathize with Theon less than Tyrion as Theon is such a dick in ACoK. 

Man the people in these books experience so much trauma from such a young age honestly. Cersei, Jaime, and Tyrion were treated like pawns by their father. Theon was treated as a hostage by his parental figures and we see that Balon is even worse (i cant imagine him being a good father previous to Theon’s hostsge time…like toxic masculinity cranked up to 10). Daenerys and Viserys were possibly homeless? Daenerys was beat by Viserys probably her entire life. How old was Lysa when she was married to Jon Arryn and forced to get an abortion by someone who was supposed to love and protect her? 

I went all over the place, but even nobles in these books have so much compounded trauma. 

[Craving Peaches]

I bet even if Theon turned up naked (because he hasn't payed the Iron Price for anything) and just spoke about raiding the West rather than Robb's alliance plan Balon would still complain. Balon clearly isn't being reasonable about it.

[Nevets]

That Balon Greyjoy is a lousy parent and a worse person isn't exactly news.  Although to be fair, he doesn't really blame Theon for his own captivity. He blames him for becoming more Stark than Greyjoy, essentially forgetting and abandoning his heritage.  Of course, the fact that that heritage is based on theft and violence doesn't exactly help things.  So Theon gets all screwed up trying to please his father, and all he gets out of it is an extended stay in Ramsay's dungeon.

The children of the nobility definitely take it in the teeth in this series, especially the Starks and those close to them.  Sansa watches her  father get executed on the orders of her own fiance, who had promised her mercy.  Her sister Arya is living on the streets, after a life lived in security and comfort in a castle. She is also present for their father's execution, and subsequently spends time doing forced labor in a military camp full of war criminals, at ten years old.  Bran is taken prisoner by someone he regarded practically as a brother and then sees his home in ruins. And Sansa's friend and companion Jeyne Poole (yes, she's nobility) has suffered such horrors it's a tribute to her resiliency that she's still standing and able to have a conversation with a male stranger.  And that's just one family.

Edited August 8, 2023 by Nevets

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

49 minutes ago, Nevets said:

That Balon Greyjoy is a lousy parent and a worse person isn't exactly news.  Although to be fair, he doesn't really blame Theon for his own captivity. He blames him for becoming more Stark than Greyjoy, essentially forgetting and abandoning his heritage.  Of course, the fact that that heritage is based on theft and violence doesn't exactly help things.  So Theon gets all screwed up trying to please his father, and all he gets out of it is an extended stay in Ramsay's dungeon.

The children of the nobility definitely take it in the teeth in this series, especially the Starks and those close to them.  Sansa watches her  father get executed on the orders of her own fiance, who had promised her mercy.  Arya is living on the streets, after a life lived in security and comfort in a castle.  Bran is taken prisoner by someone he regarded practically as a brother and then sees his home in ruins. And Sansa's friend and companion Jeyne Poole (yes, she's nobility) has suffered such horrors it's a tribute to her resiliency that she's still standing and able to have a conversation with a male stranger.  And that's just one family.

Theon quite literally replies to his father with, “I’ll change these clothes if you dislike them,” and admits to paying the gold price for his necklace. Balon doesn’t come to get Theon from Seaguard and then sends his uncle to get him in Lord’s Port. This isn’t how other members of the family are treated. Balon DID NOT KNOW what Theon was going to be like before he arrived. He absolutely treats him like shit before Theon ever speaks, ie he is projecting his own failure onto Theon from point blank. Theon is right, HE HAS succeeded and made a name for himself and Balon treats him like shit for it. What was a 10 year old boy exactly supposed to do as a hostage? Theon could not, there is no universe in which a 10 year old boy does not absorb the culture of his captors, be anything other than how he is. So yss, Balon is treated him like shit for being a hostage. 

Also Theon has one conversation with Balon which lasts whst…5 minutes? He has no clue how much Theon is a Stark, he just assumes before Theon even arrives. And by the way, if Theon actually acted how Balon seems to expect him to act, Theon would probably have been in a dungeon or hanged by now. Like…Balon’s expectations are crazed. Granted this sounds about right for someone from the Iron Islands, a culture that is …is just so horrible. I hate throwing a whole culture under the bus, but…they literally think the only way to have nice things is to kill someone for it, have a saying “we don’t sow” which essentially means we should steal everything from other people, rape is completely normalized even more so then in other cultures in asoiaf and they have slaves despite pretending it is something else. Oh and I forgot, they elect literally the most horrible human being in Westeros BY CHOICE!!! (Euron). Again, its not individuals fault, but this is a culture that needs to be forgotten (wasn’t Balon’s father trying to change things? Can’t exactly remember). They need real systematic change ASAP

Edited August 8, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[Otatop1000]

Theon should have smelled it in the air, when he arrives at Pyke, and just went home.(winterfell).  ReReads of Theon and Ned chapters I scream in my head “Just go home!”

[astarkchoice]

Yeah lets look at balons treatment of theon  summarised:

Balon: im gonna attack the north to take back our old territories

Theon: ok thats horrible but feasible , im now a battle hardened commander who knows the western part of  north  well, knows its lords and seen many of its castles inside and out il be glad to play a major role

Balon: ok you get to raid the stoney shore with like a handful of men

Theon: ERM did you just hear what i said ? Im literaly everything you need for this to suceed !!!

Balon: my daughter will suceed me

Theon: literaly fucking how ? she cant marry and pass on the family name  nor will men follow her ...are you senile? Have you run this once past the damphir who idolozes you? Or your enormous violent killing machine brother?....  SIGH ok whats the rest of the plan

Balon: your sister takes deepwood motte and vic takes moat catlin to cut off robb from the rest of the north

Theon: ok thats actualy quite good, i think robb might still eventualy be able to get north  but  thatl take ages even if possible ..so   after we take those 2 castles  then what?

Balon: we sit and wait with the full strengh of our fleet and forces and do nothing...i might write some letters but thats it!

Theon: what?  we could take their whole fucking west coast and bear island  , be sitting pretty as we take castle after castle one by one using suprise and overwhelming concentration of force by virtue of moving our guys by sea ! Wed have time to  secure  supply routes to the sea from our new warm heavily manned castles before winter prevents any sieges!!! Wtf are we waiting on???

Balon: just no ..we pay the iron price !

Theon: wtf does that mean do we never pay for anything ever?  Are we weclome in any taverns l because of that ? ......ok SIGH ....why dont we just smash the arbour fleet by suprise and take the arbour?  Our biggest rival fleet destoyed or taken, new huge harbours to build more ships, lands filled with compliant drink making serfs , all the wine we can drink and massive increase in lands! Wed be a frigging major power overnight, no naval power left in westeros could touch us 

Balon: no..i really  hate ned stark

Theon: ned? Soooo  Not tywin or robert or stannis? Or the mallisters ...ned is the one you somehow hate the most out of that bunch

 

LATER ON

Theon: hey dad its me your only son, took your fuck up plan and made it work ! Im.in winterfell can you belive it! Iv got 2 stark kids  and  a short ride away cleftjaw has torren square  which is by a lake leading to the sea!!!! Your boy has done good, iron price and all that b.s! So let me know do you wanna reinforce me in arguably the most impregnable seat in the north, or in torrens square by the lake or just to come home...your heir and seemingly awesome son theon! P.s if you help me.now iv a sneaking suspicion my new pal is actualy the head of house bolton so...yeah 2.major houses under our thumb ! Side note asha has deepwood ...feel.free to also help the one you wanted as your heir anyday now!!!!

Balon: asshole ..im going for a calming rope bridge walk

 

Edited August 8, 2023 by astarkchoice

[SaffronLady]

Going by astarkchoice's description of the whole Balon-Theon conversation, Balon isn't just a terrible father, he's also a terrible king to his own men.

[Hugorfonics]

3 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Again, its not individuals fault, but this is a culture that needs to be forgotten (wasn’t Balon’s father trying to change things? Can’t exactly remember). They need real systematic change ASAP

I just love it when we put on our holier than thou hats and start parroting Cersei. 

3 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

. Granted this sounds about right for someone from the Iron Islands, a culture that is …is just so horrible. I hate throwing a whole culture under the bus, but…

But why pay attention to reality when stereotyping is so much more pleasant? 

3 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

hey literally think the only way to have nice things is to kill someone for it,

Thats an extremely materialistic way of looking at life, there are nice things in this world that are not diamonds. 
To call back to Greyjoys first sign of prowess, Theon shooting wildlings, a paraplegic child felt like he owned half the continent and felt that ditching his bodyguards and riding the land sparkling the smallfolk and refugees was acceptable. He wanted to be a knight, he is from a warrior culture but felt that his heritage and wealth alone justify his trappings. Which the wildlings obviously disagreed with. This mindset is just totally antithesis to Ironborn thinking, which granted is abhorrent but so is all this feudal shit, but at the least this is practical and based on their medieval culture.

3 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

have a saying “we don’t sow” which essentially means we should steal everything from other people

This is a specific familial motto. Its similar to Targaryen's words of war, Lannisters of fright and Starks of ownership. It's just shit talking by the aristocracy and doesnt reflect on the smallfolk who make up the kingdom. (where they undoubtably have more freedom and independence then their greenland cousins. )

3 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

rape is completely normalized even more so then in other cultures in asoiaf

Its a crime, not normalized but punished. Where do you come up with this? Especially comparing to other Westerosi like king Robert who according to Renly literally raped every daughter who's roof he spent the night at

3 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

they have slaves despite pretending it is something else.

Whose children are able to captain a ship where they bow to no one. And once again, if we compare them to Westerosi slaves, like "Weasel" (Arya) and her companions in Harrenhal  in acok or the explicit serfdom, or kidnapping and lawful arrests as other synonyms along slavery go, in Darry that Lancel and Ami oversee. Much to Jaimes ambivalence.

3 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Oh and I forgot, they elect literally the most horrible human being in Westeros BY CHOICE!!! (Euron).

Its not like in America (or a decent part of the fucking globe) we arent in danger of electing the most horrible human either.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

11 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I just love it when we put on our holier than thou hats and start parroting Cersei. 

But why pay attention to reality when stereotyping is so much more pleasant? 

Thats an extremely materialistic way of looking at life, there are nice things in this world that are not diamonds. 
To call back to Greyjoys first sign of prowess, Theon shooting wildlings, a paraplegic child felt like he owned half the continent and felt that ditching his bodyguards and riding the land sparkling the smallfolk and refugees was acceptable. He wanted to be a knight, he is from a warrior culture but felt that his heritage and wealth alone justify his trappings. Which the wildlings obviously disagreed with. This mindset is just totally antithesis to Ironborn thinking, which granted is abhorrent but so is all this feudal shit, but at the least this is practical and based on their medieval culture.

This is a specific familial motto. Its similar to Targaryen's words of war, Lannisters of fright and Starks of ownership. It's just shit talking by the aristocracy and doesnt reflect on the smallfolk who make up the kingdom. (where they undoubtably have more freedom and independence then their greenland cousins. )

Its a crime, not normalized but punished. Where do you come up with this? Especially comparing to other Westerosi like king Robert who according to Renly literally raped every daughter who's roof he spent the night at

Whose children are able to captain a ship where they bow to no one. And once again, if we compare them to Westerosi slaves, like "Weasel" (Arya) and her companions in Harrenhal  in acok or the explicit serfdom, or kidnapping and lawful arrests as other synonyms along slavery go, in Darry that Lancel and Ami oversee. Much to Jaimes ambivalence.

Its not like in America (or a decent part of the fucking globe) we arent in danger of electing the most horrible human either.

Honestly, this is a mess, I am not sure what your point is. Are you saying no systematic change is needed in the Iron Islands, that they should continue to kill and steal as they wish from other Kingdoms? 

[Alester Florent]

It would be interesting to know what Balon was like with his kids before his rebellion. Functionally losing all his sons in one fell swoop may have fundamentally altered his personality. He seems to have been at least a moderately ok father to Asha, overall. 

Not to say that he wasn't always a big dumb-dumb who made stupid decisions, of course, because he was.

[Hugorfonics]

3 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Honestly, this is a mess, I am not sure what your point is.

That your stereotyping was unjustified and throwing them under the bus for a Westerosi offense is nonsensical.

4 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Are you saying no systematic change is needed in the Iron Islands, that they should continue to kill and steal as they wish from other Kingdoms? 

Umm. Yea I mean it's fucked up there. But it is everywhere too. If we start at the top with Thenns, awful, freefolk, awful, NW, extra awful skinchangers, I like them but they certainly have a complex, Ironborn... Southron, awful. Free cities, awful (individually or together), slaverys bay, awful.

I do think systematic change is needed, but that's more with tearing down the military complexes that exist to lord over the populace and a complete redistribution of land and wealth and influence in the administration. Which again I'd say about everywhere. But mainly like the NW then KL then like idk, but Pyke is down the list as I respect their integration of cultures and their democratic elections 

[SaffronLady]

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Pyke is down the list as I respect their integration of cultures and their democratic elections 

Wait, how exactly did the last kingsmoot go again? Can't recall the chapters. Did all boat owners take part or just the lords of the Iron Islands?

[Hugorfonics]

Just now, SaffronLady said:

Wait, how exactly did the last kingsmoot go again? Can't recall the chapters. Did all boat owners take part or just the lords of the Iron Islands?

I think it's a mix. And the least that's representative democracy based off wealth and property ownership... Which is still way fucking better then absolute monarchy 

[Hugorfonics]

6 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

Wait, how exactly did the last kingsmoot go again? Can't recall the chapters. Did all boat owners take part or just the lords of the Iron Islands?

Ok so it looks like everyone who ran for office was aristocratic. Gyllbert lord of lonely light was outta his mind. Vote for crazy. Then was Erik who for some wild reason his age was called into question! (And we mock them lol) followed by Ashas vote for surrender and Vics vote for the north only to lose to Euros vote for command. 

But Aaron invites any to speak, I do think perhaps it'd be unwise for a non aristocrat to put in his name but that's more to do with the actuality of a smallfolk little influence.

In terms of the vote it seems like more then just property owners were allowed to vote and basically its up to anyone. Not the most solid fool proofed way of voting I have to say. NW vote with seashells or something, Vale Wildlings are small enough to vote by face but the Kingsmoot is by noise. Sorta like a concert. Wanna hear my new single or a throwback? And the crowd roars one way or another. Democracy. But I don't see any age or tbh gender restrictions here. (Although Asha does appear as the only girl I could spot) and certainly not one of wealth or station as it's all about the volume exhibited by your supporters and undecided voters

[Maegor_the_Cool]

His hatred of Theon had nothing to do with how Theon was dressed nor was it how he acted. Though that gave him an excuse in his mind. The real reason Balon hated Theon so much was simply because his return was a reminder of how much a failure he was. As a King, Raider, and a Father.

[sifth]

I often wonder how Balon has managed to stay in power for as long as he did. He started two rebellions, yet didn't fight in either one. He sent his sons, brothers and daughter to do his fighting for him and blames them when they fail. He sells Theon to Robert, to try to keep his head and then threats Theon like crap when he's returned to him..................for the crime of being raised by Starks. The guy is a hypocrite, a coward, a horrible king and an even worse human being.

Heck he's not even a fun character like Euron.

Edited August 8, 2023 by sifth

[KingAerys_II]

Balon is dumb, but Theon is a foll too, instead of betraying the Stark he should have betrayed that idiot Balon was. A weak king, humbled by Robert, who sent his kids to certain death, he already did this, he trusted Euron to burn the fleet, who took the benefits after Robert defeated them? Euron, Balon's kids were almost all dead, Theon is the only one, who survived. Euron took advantage from Balon stupidity, he had no more heirs, and the ironborns chose Euron as a king.
The stupidity of Balon is clear, when he chose to attack a poor land as the North, that becomes a cold hell in the Winter, the Conquest of the North is a lost cause, there are kingdoms that are richer, as the Riverlands, Reach and Westerlands, then there is Essos, there is a big gap between Balon and Euron, Balon was weak and foolish, Theon was a fool to obey his father, who lost every war and accomplished nothing.

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

But why pay attention to reality when stereotyping is so much more pleasant? 

Unfortunately the Ironborn Stereotype is the 'reality' though, we only see very few Ironborn (Asha, Baelor Blacktyde (a ward elsewhere), Theon (a ward elsewhere), Gylbert (who may be mad), Cotter Pyke and Roderick; so a very small minority) who go against the Stereotype and one of them, Asha, only does so partly as a last resort. Two of them act that way because they were raised outside the Islands. It is not as though the 'stereotype' is just something made up by other people to slander the Ironborn since we have Ironborn POV and they all act like the 'stereotype'...

Edited August 8, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Alester Florent]

Balon's decision to attack the North was obviously motivated by spite. He could have gone after the Westerlands, a richer territory (at least along its coast) with a pre-baked ally who was already attacking it from the east and was willing to support him in his claim for independence. Instead he attacks that ally, intending to target a couple of minor settlements along its shore. It's opportunism, sure, but it's not the most sensible of the two opportunities available. 

Why? For revenge for crushing the Rebellion? The North was hardly alone in that. It was in the Riverlands that his son died. It was Robert who stormed Pyke. It was Stannis who destroyed the Iron Fleet. Robert and Ned are both dead, and he has just as much reason to take it out on Joffrey as he does on Robb. No, he hates the North because it was the North that took his last son away from him. 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

15 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

Balon is dumb, but Theon is a foll too, instead of betraying the Stark he should have betrayed that idiot Balon was. A weak king, humbled by Robert, who sent his kids to certain death, he already did this, he trusted Euron to burn the fleet, who took the benefits after Robert defeated them? Euron, Balon's kids were almost all dead, Theon is the only one, who survived. Euron took advantage from Balon stupidity, he had no more heirs, and the ironborns chose Euron as a king.
The stupidity of Balon is clear, when he chose to attack a poor land as the North, that becomes a cold hell in the Winter, the Conquest of the North is a lost cause, there are kingdoms that are richer, as the Riverlands, Reach and Westerlands, then there is Essos, there is a big gap between Balon and Euron, Balon was weak and foolish, Theon was a fool to obey his father, who lost every war and accomplished nothing.

Although I actually agree with you that Theon was wrong to follow Balon...hmm, I guess fool isn't quite the word I would use. People often try to do what their parents want, and I think it's more human nature than foolishness. I don't know, maybe I'm nitpicking here, because I do think Theon was wrong (and he did make foolish decisions)...but it's a hard thing to not fall into. Tyrion also follows Tywin's orders despite openly admitting he hates him. It's a hard thing to go against a parent, and I think Theon's situation is particularly hard as he was kind of stuck between two worlds and confused of who he really is or where he really belonged.