Your Unpopular ASOIAF Opinions/Hot Takes

[Dofs]

10 hours ago, frenin said:

I didn't imply anything.

I said that he was possessive.

Nor do I intend to shy away from my words.

 

Fair enough, I misremember it.

He just dreams with smashing her teeth in with his golden hand.

 

The day Ned feels like beating his wife bloody for cheating on him. I'll compare him with Jaime.

Till then it's like comparing Ned and Gregor.

 

Jaime sees a dream in a sleep. But of course you will treat it as his real intentions. 

And I see, you do call Ned as "possessive", well, then you do you. 

Anyway, enjoy.

[frenin]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Snip

Eh, I feel like that was set up for the fallout of Tyrion's kidnapping, both he and Riverrun call their banners.

And whereas he would have thrown a fit no doubt, I very much doubt he'd start a war he couldn't win unless the children's order in the succession line was altered.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

7 hours ago, sifth said:

I often wonder if Ned would have just let the blonde haired thing slide, if Joff was a good person. His evidence was pretty weak; I've constantly seen kids that have different hair colors than their parents. Part of me wonders if the whole hair thing, was him finally coming up with some sort of evidence, to prove the Lannisters were traitors and get rid o them; weak as it might be.

I gave you a prize, because ….you might be right. Only NOT Eddard. Eddard hated the Lannisters and wanted them removed from power. However, he also also badly wanted to discover what happened to his adopted father. His main goals were first discovering who murdered his father, then discovering who pushed his son out a window. 

However, you know who really wants power and to be King? Stannis Baratheon. Do you know who probably first forwarded the theory that Joffrey was a bastard? Stannis Baratheon. Jon Arryn and Eddard Stark probably would have never DONE SHIT. It was Stannis. Remember earlier in the thread when I listened what led to the war. Adding one : Stannis Baratheon’s ambition. 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Why would Tywin work towards war? At the beginning of Agot he's won in life.

Because Tywin is a controlling asshole, and he wasn’t directly in power. Tywin would ALWAYS be looking to advance his personal position and the Lannister name. Not only do I think he WAS far too prepared to invade the Riverlands, but on top of that, I just think you are ignoring that war was inevitable. 

Hmm, real life comparison. When I study WWI, the way my professor in Uni put it, was that war was essentially inevitable because of the political climate of Europe at the time. I think Westeros during Robert’s reign was very similar, so I’ll list shit : 

1. Tywin and generally speaking the Lannisters had way too much power for a Queen’s family. Eddard and the Starks hate the Lannisters, but so do both Renly and Stannis. 

2. Robert was a super weak King and did absolutely nothing to prepare the realm for the succession of his son. Not only did he not prepare Joffrey properly to be King, but he actively had in laws and brothers who hated each other, and he did nothint about it. 

3. Varys was working toward war, and he is quite good at it. 

4. The Tyrells and Martells were not a part of the army that won the war. Honestly, I think that is why you see r the Tyrells quickly jump on Renly’s ship then rhe Lannister ship. They were looking to secure their power post Targaryen reign. Doran Martell was also ready to find anway to kill Lannisters and I assume he would have eventually made SOME move (and if not him, Oberyn may have forced his hand). 

5. Cersei Lannister was Queen. I am going to say it again : Cersei as Queen would have always led ti war. Always. Look at her actions. Like everything she does pisses other people off. She pissed off yhe Hand of the King and threatened to cut his daughter’s hand off…in one of our first scene. Like…Cersei as Queen was like a powder keg that was bound to eventually cause war to go off, lol. 

6. If somehow Cersei did give Robert an heir, we still have a question : Is Cersei at least partially responsible for why Joffrey is Joffrey? I say yes. Which means, I think Robert’s heir could have easily been another Joffrey, and again, much like Cersei, Joffrey as King is yet another powder keg, lol. Keep in mind this is a 7 kingdoms no longer united under some monarch. Guess what happened back om the 7 kingdoms period. War constantly breaking out between Kingdoms. And I think Joffrey as King could easily have like all 6 other kingdms looking to establish themselves as independent kingdoms. 

7. I started this in the last point. But honestly, I think an inevitable war was going to happen because all the other Kingdoms dont want to be ruled by the Baratheons. Like look at what happens in our book. Balon Greyjoy was looking for any excuse to declare himself King again. The Tyrells were searching out someone to tie themsleves to. The Martells wanted the Dragons back. The Starks and Lannisters hate each other. Robb declares himself pretty quickly as well. 

8. Your plan does not account for Daenerys, so I assume she STILL emerges and takes Slaver’s Bay and has 3 dragons. 

9. Aegon Blackfyre is also still a thing, and Varys would have found a way to stir up trouble to get him SOME opening. 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

22 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Because Tywin is a controlling asshole, and he wasn’t directly in power.

Plus, with both Jon Arryn and Robert dead, Ned was the only obstacle to full Lannister hegemony in King's Landing.

[sifth]

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

However, you know who really wants power and to be King? Stannis Baratheon. Do you know who probably first forwarded the theory that Joffrey was a bastard? Stannis Baratheon. Jon Arryn and Eddard Stark probably would have never DONE SHIT. It was Stannis. Remember earlier in the thread when I listened what led to the war. Adding one : Stannis Baratheon’s ambition. 

You bring up a good point about Stannis. How the heck did he discover that Joff and the other two kids weren't Robert's? The mans own daughter looks and acts almost nothing like him, aside from her jawline. I feel like there's a piece missing, from the Stannis puzzle, that GRRM hasn't given us yet.

Edited December 10, 2023 by sifth

[Ran]

2 minutes ago, sifth said:

I feel like there's a piece missing, from the Stannis puzzle, that GRRM hasn't given us yet.

Spoiler

"He accuses my brother and sister of incest. I wonder how he came by that suspicion."
 "Perhaps he read a book and looked at the color of a bastard's hair, as Ned Stark did, and Jon Arryn before him. Or perhaps someone whispered it in his ear." The eunuch's laugh was not his usual giggle, but deeper and more throaty.

The obvious candidate  is Littlefinger, starting the ball rolling for his "chaos is good business" play. Stannis has very little to say about Littlefinger in general.

 

[sifth]

3 minutes ago, Ran said:

  Hide contents

"He accuses my brother and sister of incest. I wonder how he came by that suspicion."
 "Perhaps he read a book and looked at the color of a bastard's hair, as Ned Stark did, and Jon Arryn before him. Or perhaps someone whispered it in his ear." The eunuch's laugh was not his usual giggle, but deeper and more throaty.

The obvious candidate  is Littlefinger, starting the ball rolling for his "chaos is good business" play. Stannis has very little to say about Littlefinger in general.

 

Good point. Though Stannis does mention wanting to remove Littlefinger from court, along with Varys. I think you're probably right though.

[SaffronLady]

3 hours ago, sifth said:

Good point. Though Stannis does mention wanting to remove Littlefinger from court, along with Varys. I think you're probably right though.

Stannis may just not like LF as an advisor, a subordinate, or a human in general. Doesn't stop him from subscribing to his consipracies when it suits his ambition.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

5 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

Stannis may just not like LF as an advisor, a subordinate, or a human in general

To be fair, the list of people that Stannis likes is very short.

[SaffronLady]

1 minute ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

To be fair, the list of people that Stannis likes is very short.

That makes classifying people Stannis doesn't like into sub-categories more important, methinks. Else I may mistake him for cynic.

[Alester Florent]

Just now, SaffronLady said:

That makes classifying people Stannis doesn't like into sub-categories more important, methinks. Else I may mistake him for cynic.

1. People Stannis likes: ?????
2. People Stannis is happy to tolerate: Davos, Jon Snow, Melisandre, Shireen
3. People Stannis barely tolerates: Imry Florent, me, Monford Velaryon, Selyse, lords of the Narrow Sea
4. People Stannis respects but dislikes: Ned Stark, probably Barristan
5. People Stannis actively dislikes and/or resents: Robert, Janos Slynt, Renly, the whole of the rest of Westeros

 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

3 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

People Stannis is happy to tolerate: Davos, Jon Snow, Melisandre, Shireen

Speaking of which, I wonder how Melisandre managed to gain his trust?

[SaffronLady]

39 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Speaking of which, I wonder how Melisandre managed to gain his trust?

By making him a meal of course, we all know the fastest way to a man's heart is his stomach.

[frenin]

5 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Not only do I think he WAS far too prepared to invade the Riverlands, but on top of that,

Disagree, in fact I think that his invasion makes perfect sense when we realize that he had privileged information from King's Landing. The rest of the Realm didn't 

And he could adjust his plans accordingly.

 

5 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

. I think Westeros during Robert’s reign was very similar, so I’ll list shit : 

War is inevitable because of the twincest.

The moment the secret was out war became a certainty, it only rest to know who would be in each faction, for example had Ned not been privy of the twincest, he may be supported Joffrey against Renly or Stannis.

But a devastating civil war would always happen.

 

5 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Tywin and generally speaking the Lannisters had way too much power for a Queen’s family.

Disagree and this is an argument that's made very much for every King even if that's not necessary true? Viserys I, Aegon III or Daeron II all were accused of favoring their in laws too much, Prince Viserys' in laws in Aegon's case, but that always seemed far from the truth.

In court, there are few nobles from the West, most of the nobles we see in Robert's court are Stormlords, Crownlanders or Lords from the Vale.

In the Small Council most of the seats are filled by Valemen or men from Stormlands, and I'm pretty sure Pycelle's true allegiance wasn't known.

The power the Lannisters have are directly because of the influence Cersei has on Robert and even that has its limits.

 

5 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Robert was a super weak King

Disagree, Robert was a fairly strong King, if absent and disinterested to rule.

 

5 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Not only did he not prepare Joffrey properly to be King, but he actively had in laws and brothers who hated each other, and he did nothint about it. 

What could he do?

Force them to love each other?

 

5 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Varys was working toward war, and he is quite good at it. 

Certainly, still without the twincest he'd have nothing to work with. Prodigy or not.

 

5 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Cersei as Queen would have always led ti war.

Why?

Cersei's actions could lead to resentment and she on her own could do lots of things to destabilize his hubby's but on her own... How could she lead to war? Seems a good deal of exaggeration to me.

 

 

5 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Which means, I think Robert’s heir could have easily been another Joffrey, and again, much like Cersei, Joffrey as King is yet another powder keg, lol

Could Cersei have spoiled a true Baratheon rotten? Certainly. Would he be a psycho like Joffrey? No, not really.

Besides psycho or not, Joffrey's only opposed because he's not Robert's son. Aerys lasted 20 years till he burned the wrong.

 

 

5 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Keep in mind this is a 7 kingdoms no longer united under some monarch.

I'm not following you.

 

5 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

And I think Joffrey as King could easily have like all 6 other kingdms looking to establish themselves as independent kingdoms. 

Disagree, most Kingdoms would rather have it all.

Few tried to rule chunks of England after it was reunified.

 

 

5 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I think an inevitable war was going to happen because all the other Kingdoms dont want to be ruled by the Baratheons.

Where are you getting this from?

The Baratheons are Kings because 4 realms decided to back them, add that the Lannisters being married to them and sweet Renly being cozy with the Reach Lords and that leaves that the majority of the country.

 

5 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Like look at what happens in our book. Balon Greyjoy was looking for any excuse to declare himself King again.

I doubt that Balon would be more loyal under a Targaryen, he simply thought he could get away with it.

We're very much told that Balon dreamed with returning to the Old way regardless of the hair color that sit on the pointy chair.

 

5 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

The Tyrells were searching out someone to tie themsleves to. The Martells wanted the Dragons back. The Starks and Lannisters hate each other. Robb declares himself pretty quickly as well. 

- The Tyrells were looking to ascend in the post Rebellion position.

- The Martells wanted vengeance, and Doran is too cautious to ever be an issue.

- The Starks and Lannisters hate each other but that wasn't an impediment for peaceful coexistence for 15 years. Hell, for all their animosity, Tywin and Eddard both served in Pyke under Robert. What set the Lannisters and Starks is again... the twincest.

- Robb declares himself King because Great job pronounces the greatest speech, Secession wasn't on his mind till then, far from that, he was worrying how could he oppose Joffrey without being labeled a traitor.

 

 

5 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Your plan does not account for Daenerys, so I assume she STILL emerges and takes Slaver’s Bay and has 3 dragons. 

That much is true, Dany is truly the wildcard in all this.

 

 

5 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Aegon Blackfyre is also still a thing, and Varys would have found a way to stir up trouble to get him SOME opening. 

Aegon is a non entity without the massive civil war going on in Westeros.

Hell without Tywin dying, the Golden Company would have never attacked Westeros and JonCon admits that in normal circumstances he'd never dream to land on the Stormlands.

The opening Varys has is the twincest, without that, he's pretty much hoping for the best.

 

43 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Speaking of which, I wonder how Melisandre managed to gain his trust?

Well she did get Cressen killed, Stannis was very much desperate when she came to his aid. Stannis being very attracted to her also helps.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

16 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

By making him a meal of course, we all know the fastest way to a man's heart is his stomach.

I'm not sure about that. I think Stannis or Davos would have mentioned a few staples of Asshai cuisine if that was the case. 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

8 hours ago, frenin said:

Snip.

Westeros is not England. Tell me how the Roman Empire got back together will you? How about the Macedonian Empire? The Ottomans? I could keep going. Westeros is huge. And importantly, the KIngdoms CLEARLY have separate identities still, particularly the Dornish, the North, and the Iron Islands. The only example of Westeros-sized place staying together is China...however, China broke up into several Kingdoms many time in its history as well, then was re-unified. 

Everything else you said is just not convincing, at all, and I think again, you are just missing that there was a lot of things ready to boil over. Just because they hadn't boiled over is not...a reason to believe they never would, lol. Boiling pots always have to reach the boiling point at some point, lol. I don't know, I think you are missing the obvious. 

Oh wait, one more - Being a disinterested King...is being a weak King, lol. The idea that a King that drinks and parties and doesn't care about his Kingdom could be a "strong" King is ridiculous. It's ...a contradiction. You could I suppose say that Jon Arryn was a good Hand (or Eddard)...but then that wouldn't be Robert, and the Kingdom would always be ready to fall into ruin if Robert ever actually had to lead. All the things I said are...vital things needed to be done by a King. He literally started a new dynasty...yet the main coinage are still DRAGONS. I've always thought this very small detail made it obvious that Robert was a terrible King. He should have replaced Dragons with something Baratheon related immediately. He should have also been constnatly visiting his new provinces, securing his power in those areas (something we never hear of him doing). I guess this wouldn't be necessary in the Vale, the Riverlands, the Stormlands, or the North; but everywhere else, yes. His small council was a den of corruption, and no one was loyal to him (Baelish loyal to himself, Varys to the Blackfyes, Pycell to the Lannisters, Stannis to himself, ...maybe Renly to Robert, and his Hand to Robert). His Kingsguard is an embarrassment. I could keep going. He is a horribly weak King. He is a great wartime General, a terrible, awful King who was not as bad as Aerys...and that is all that can be said (even he knew it). 

Edited December 11, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[SaffronLady]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Why?

Cersei's actions could lead to resentment and she on her own could do lots of things to destabilize his hubby's but on her own... How could she lead to war? Seems a good deal of exaggeration to me.

Well at the very least it would lead to a succession crisis. Sometimes that leads to wars, called succession wars. You might have heard of them.

1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I'm not sure about that. I think Stannis or Davos would have mentioned a few staples of Asshai cuisine if that was the case. 

Fair point.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

What could he do?

Force them to love each other?

Find his son a match powerful enough to stare down his brothers, like betrothing Joffery to Margaery Tyrell.

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Ancient Greek Empire

Well you learn something new every day. What's this? I suppose that's what the Turkish government's outlet called the "genocidal imperialist power that invaded the Hittites".

Twitter is so much fun if you know where to look, really.

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

He literally started a new dynasty...yet the main coinage are still DRAGONS. I've always thought this very small detail made it obvious that Robert was a terrible King. He should have replaced Dragons with something Baratheon related immediately.

Maybe he wanted to placate the Tyrells? Or maybe he just never got the idea of what the silver should be after the stag is upgraded to gold stags. Silver wolves sound nice, IMO.

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

He should have also been constnatly visiting his new provinces, securing his power in those areas

Royal progresses, true dragonlord style.

[frenin]

2 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Westeros is not England. Tell me how the Roman Empire got back together will you? How about the Ancient Greek Empire? The Ottomans? I could keep going. Westeros is huge. And importantly, the KIngdoms CLEARLY have separate identities still, particularly the Dornish, the North, and the Iron Islands. The only example of Westeros-sized place staying together is China...however, China broke up into several Kingdoms many time in its history as well, then was re-unified. 

Westeros is modeled after England however, only three kingdoms are distinct enough for secesion to be a viable option and of those three the Martells are not interested at all in separation. 

What separate identity has a stormlander compared to valemen? A westernmen compared to a Reachmen?

 

2 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

you are just missing that there was a lot of things ready to boil over.

The "lots of things ready to boil over" are extrictly tied to the twincest.

Without it we'd have to create an entirely different conflict serious enough to cause a massive civil  war.

 

2 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

is being a weak King, lol.

Agree to disagree.

It's a bad king no doubt, not necessarily weak. A weak ruler is one who can't enforce his authority nor impose his will on his subjects, one who does not care enough to do it is certainly a bad oneb but not necessarily weak. I can only think of Aenys and Egg as the only weak kings, although tbf Egg tried to pass reforms that could only be enforced via dragons.

The rest just seems a bit like rant.

 

1 hour ago, SaffronLady said:

Well at the very least it would lead to a succession crisis. Sometimes that leads to wars, called succession wars. You might have heard of them.

Why?

Without the twincest... what can Cersei do to "start a succesion crisis"?

1 hour ago, SaffronLady said:

Find his son a match powerful enough to stare down his brothers, like betrothing Joffery to Margaery Tyrell.

What would that accomplish exactly? Besides the fact that Sansa Stark does just that but leaving that aside...

 What are the reasons Robert has to believe his brothers would act against his son?

 

 

Edited December 10, 2023 by frenin

[Craving Peaches]

59 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

I suppose that's what the Turkish government's outlet called the "genocidal imperialist power that invaded the Hittites".

Current theories suggest some of the sea peoples may have been fleeing from 'Greece', but the sea people were not a homogeneous group, and I would not describe them as imperialist or genocidal either. There was also an 'Athenian Empire', but it wasn't really an empire, it was another name for the Delian League.

But RIP Hittite Empire 

Spoiler

The more I learn about Turkish nationalist claims, the more I laugh... Or get frustrated.