Why should Renly have backed Stannis?

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

@Lee-Sensei I am honestly befuddled. My friend, why are you choosing to focus on a point that cannot possibly be proved one way or the other. Like, it just can't. We don't know. Plain and simple, we don't know. We don't know how long Renly was Master of Laws and we don't know what he did while he was in the position. For all we know, he took down major criminals in King's Landing, or unearthed the previous Master of Laws' corruption. We honestly have no clue, because GRRM didn't write about it. The lack of information is not proof he was bad at his job, it is proof that GRRM didn't care to write about it. Because, let's be honest, it's fairly unimportant to the plot. Perhaps if Eddard had created a relationship with Renly (which he didn't) we could have seen a bit more of what Renly was like as Master of Laws....but Eddard didn't create that relationship and we only saw snippets of Renly basically up to Robert's death, and most of it was just Eddard talking about how much Renly looked like Robert. 

The time we see the most of Renly is through Catelyn's POV, and to be blunt, I think Renly came off quite well to Catelyn (and should have, to the audience). He was not given to excesses like Robert, while having the charm and leadership skills that Robert was known best for. I honestly think Renly was quite good at politics, which to me means he would have been at least capable as Master of Laws...but again, like I said above, we cannot possibly know. The information doesn't exist. It's just your guess, the same as it is my guess. Let's focus more on what we actually see of Renly than what we don't. 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

On 8/19/2023 at 8:29 PM, Alester Florent said:

While I don't disagree he feels he would make a better king than Robert, I think the take that "Robert is a terrible king" is one that goes unquestioned too much of the time round here.

I think Robert was, at worst, an adequate king. He had the potential to be better, but the realm was generally peaceful and prosperous under his rule, and when he could be bothered to put his foot down, he tended to make sensible decisions. His main flaw, I think, is not that he doesn't attend the council meetings (he's put capable people in charge, and lets them get on with it) or that he doesn't do his day job of sitting the Iron Throne and adjudicating disputes (it seems that he does, even if he doesn't enjoy it) or that he's allowed the crown to get into debt (it's at a sustainable level, and given that Tywin's first move under Aerys was buying up all the crown debt personally, I'm not convinced that the growth in debt under Robert is quite as spectacular as Ned seemed to believe)... but that he's allowed Cersei to grind him down and sap his energy and enthusiasm to the point where he lets her get her own way most of the time, which makes it harder for him to assert himself when he needs to.

And I find it difficult to blame him too much for that: that relationship was abusive in both directions.

I think if Cersei hadn't killed him, he and Ned would have made a successful partnership.

I am going to have to disagree here. First, I will say, I agree to what you say while UNDER his reign. Robert was an adequate King while he was in office. However, new regimes have to do a lot more than be adequete. I've mentioned this elsewhere, but Robert helped cause the succession crisis that followed his death. In fact, I would say he was one of the main reasons for said succession crisis. Let's go through a few points :

1. Most importantly, Robert just kind of lets Cersei get her way. He names the people she wants to positions of power, and he doesn't suspect or see the Lannisters at making a move to take over the influence of the throne despite that being a thing that is obvious to.....everyone else. Renly, Jon Arryn, Stannis, Eddard, even Vary or Littlefinger, everyone basically knows this is going on except Robert who is directly helping this Lannister effort to becomes the power behind the throne. 

2. In addition to the above point, Robert beggared the realm. It is suggested multiple times that King Aerys left the crown with surpluses, a huge amount of wealth that Robert managed to spend. Now, did Littlefinger contribute to this...yes he did, however, that is also part of Robert's job. Hiring people actually capable of the job. People seem to act like Robert's responsibilities were literally nothing. I think this is strange, because no one thinks this about Robb Stark, Daenerys, Renly, or Stannis. Only Robert (and perhaps Joffrey and Tommen, who obviously weren't making the main decisions as they were young) gets this treatment. It's weird. Robert was supposed to do stuff, not just sit on his ass. Leaders are supposed to do things. Lead. Sorry, off topic, back on topic - He spent an enormous amount of money, no matter what, which helped put the crown in debt. Also, specifically choosing to go into massive debt to the SAME FAMILY already gaining influence and positions of importance is additionally concerning. 

3. Robert's line was a new line. A new line, and a new royal family. In history, most new lines make a significant amount of changes that help separate themselves from the previous line. The reason for this...is if they don't do this, well, exactly what happens in our books happens. Wars of succession. To me, the war of succession was inevitable based on Robert's "leadership" style. His style of leadership COULD work in an already established dynasty, say mid-Targaryen King, Robert would be fine, would be adequete. But he is in the position of Aegon the Conqueror. And no, his effort is well below adequate. He essentially does nothing to separate his regime from past regimes other than like superficial things like removing the dragon heads from the throne room. Although the coins have Robert's heads on them...does he actually change the currency, or is it essentially exactly the same. Does he devalue former King's currency (I doubt it)? 

4. Robert makes 0 efforts to prepare Joffrey to be the next King. Like, from what I see, he leaves childrearing completely up to Cersei, and barely has a relationship with his son. 

5. Robert's brothers were obviously also a threat to his children's future, and again, he does nothing about this. Stannis sails away, and Robert doesn't seem to even care and does nothing about it. Renly is plotting to find Robert a new wife, and again Robert has no clue about it. Basically...Robert has no clue, all the time. That isn't an adequete King. That's an adequete....mid-level manager (who don't really have duties in the first place, especially if everyone is qualified underneath them)...but Robert...isn't a mid-level manager. He's the top gun. He is supposed to be making decisions to ensure his dynasty succeeds beyond him. 

6. His queen was literally planning before his death to strip his best friend/hand of the King and his brothers of power. I already mentioned he does nothing about Cersei's ambition...but this is crazed. He literally doesn't see Cersei's agency at all. Honestly, can I be blunt. It's just so stupid. His blind-spot when it comes to Lannisters is so incredibly stupid. 

7. He puts two...semi-qualified/semi-competent Hands of the King in office and then doesn't actually listen to them. Basically at all. You said Robert was adequate. No, Eddard and Jon were adequate...Robert was a bad King. Okay, I'm done. 

 

Edit : I wasn't done. Actually, even Robert himself sees that he is not a good King. He says it to Eddard repeatedly. And you could say that sometimes people are too hard on themselves....do you honestly read Robert as one of those people? I think not, he is actually overflowing with confidence in other areas. The reason Robert sees himself as a bad King is he recognizes that he is derelict in his duties. He recognizes he was really not meant for Kingship, that his strong suits are not in this area. 

I think the prevailing "Robert is not a bad King" argument comes from the same place as a boss who doesn't do much is...better than a boss that micromanages everything or mismanages everything. While I agree with the latter, the problem with that thinking is 1. Most of those bosses are mid-level managers, not the head hancho. They DON'T actually have that much responsibility. There job is to manage people and if the people below them are competent, being derelict of their duties will not have any bad consequences (and I think a lot of people are competent). BUT if the CEO of a company was derelict of their duties, I think most of the time, that company would go bankrupt or at least lose a significant amount of the business that the company once had, and that is a more apt comparison for Robert. Robert is not a midlevel manager who just has to be ...not an active fuck-up in order to do a good job, he is in charage of everything and he essentially shirks all those duties. Any competence coming from the Robert regime came from Jon Arryn or Eddard Stark, not Robert Baratheon (and yes, I know I'm repeating myself). I guess you could say the one thing Robert was okay at as a King was...happening to have competent people near him (after all he just chose his psuedo father figure and psuedo brother figure, it's not like he actually chose Jon or Eddard because they were competent). 

Again, I actually agree, I like hands off bosses who aren't that great at their job. It makes for a relaxing work environment, and like I said, I think as long as the company has hired competent people, it can actually make for BETTER management than the constant micromanaging that leads to stressed out workers at other companies. But One. The people under Robert weren't that great at their jobs. Stannis left office for ...how long? A long time. Petyr was almost certainly stealing money from the crown. Varys was clearly plotting to overthrow the Baratheons at some point. Grand Maester Pycelle was in league with Tywin and Cersei Lannister. Renly had been in office at best...what 1-2 years (and was young and could use an older brother helping him learn the ropes)? Robert had significant issues brewing under him, and he did NOTHING about it. And Two.  In fact, most of his actions made those problems worse (such as what I mentioned above). I wrote too much even in this edit. I sincerely apologize. I want to make it clear how terrible of a King I think Robert was. 

Edited August 21, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[Lee-Sensei]

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

@Lee-Sensei I am honestly befuddled. My friend, why are you choosing to focus on a point that cannot possibly be proved one way or the other. Like, it just can't. We don't know. Plain and simple, we don't know. We don't know how long Renly was Master of Laws and we don't know what he did while he was in the position. For all we know, he took down major criminals in King's Landing, or unearthed the previous Master of Laws' corruption. We honestly have no clue, because GRRM didn't write about it. The lack of information is not proof he was bad at his job, it is proof that GRRM didn't care to write about it. Because, let's be honest, it's fairly unimportant to the plot. Perhaps if Eddard had created a relationship with Renly (which he didn't) we could have seen a bit more of what Renly was like as Master of Laws....but Eddard didn't create that relationship and we only saw snippets of Renly basically up to Robert's death, and most of it was just Eddard talking about how much Renly looked like Robert. 

The time we see the most of Renly is through Catelyn's POV, and to be blunt, I think Renly came off quite well to Catelyn (and should have, to the audience). He was not given to excesses like Robert, while having the charm and leadership skills that Robert was known best for. I honestly think Renly was quite good at politics, which to me means he would have been at least capable as Master of Laws...but again, like I said above, we cannot possibly know. The information doesn't exist. It's just your guess, the same as it is my guess. Let's focus more on what we actually see of Renly than what we don't. 

Because it's relevant. We do know three things.

1) In the matter of Janos Slynt, Jon Arryn brought his corruption to Robert. Not Renly.

2) Renly never talks about the importance of the law and gleefully violates it by trying to usurp either his nephew or his brother.

3) Stannis says that Renly spent his time on the council mostly joking with Littlefinger (although it's fair to point out that Stannis has a bias, he's usually willing to give begrudging credit).

I never said he was horrible at it. But he doesn't seem to have accomplished much.

I also think Renly mostly came off well in his chapters with Catelyn. He controls his hedonism unlike old Robert, he's charming, forgiving, sociable and charismatic. He also surrounded himself with good people, although he didn't quite listen to Randyll Tarly's advice. Which is one of the reasons that I said Renly would have made a better king than pre-Blackwater Stannis.

On the matter of Joffrey, we don't get anywhere near enough interactions between them to say that Robert did nothing and he was probably already screwed up from inbreeding. That was a choice made entirely by Cersei and Jaime when they killed his kids and replaced them with their own.

 

Quote

"The queen has never been known as a friend to the commons, nor is Lord Varys called the Spider out of love . . . but it is you they blame most. Your sister and the eunuch were here when times were better under King Robert, but you were not. They say that you've filled the city with swaggering sellswords and unwashed savages, brutes who take what they want and follow no laws but their own. They say you exiled Janos Slynt because you found him too bluff and honest for your liking. They say you threw wise and gentle Pycelle into the dungeons when he dared raise his voice against you. Some even claim that you mean to seize the Iron Throne for your own."

I'm sure Robert knows that the Lannisters are expanding their power. If we got into his head, I'm confident he'd think as much. He just doesn't see it as a big deal (and he's wrong about that tbf). The Lannisters and Baratheons are one family now in theory. Just like Tywin is surrounded by Florents and Renly is surrounded by Tyrells. Now, Cersei and Tommen are surrounded by the Tyrells. And even then, there wasn't a single Lannister in his council other than Pycelle sort of. And he was a hold over from the the previous 3 administrations appointed by the citadel around 25 years before Robert became the king.

 

Quote

Let me tell you a secret, Ned. More than once, I have dreamed of giving up the crown. Take ship for the Free Cities with my horse and my hammer, spend my time warring and whoring, that’s what I was made for. The sellsword king, how the singers would love me. You know what stops me? The thought of Joffrey on the throne, with Cersei standing behind him whispering in his ear.

Edited August 21, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[Ran]

1 hour ago, Lee-Sensei said:

1) In the matter of Janos Slynt, Jon Arryn brought his corruption to Robert. Not Renly.

Leaving aside, again, that we don't know that Renly was on the small council at the time, or if he was for how long, if some facts fell in Jon Arryn's lap because he was Hand or the Lord of the Vale -- say one of the officers coming to testify was a valeman and that's why he went to his overlord -- it really says nothing about the Master of Laws at the time (whoever he was). 

 

1 hour ago, Lee-Sensei said:

2) Renly never talks about the importance of the law and gleefully violates it by trying to usurp either his nephew or his brother.

He also doesn't talk about the importance of bathing regularly, so I guess he didn't do that. He doesn't talk about training at arms, so I guess he doesn't do that. He doesn't talk about his love for Loras, so I guess he didn't. And so on, and so forth. Renly appears in a handful of scenes, mostly with a bunch of other characters, and only one of them could conceivably lead to a discussion of legalities.

As others noted, however, he certainly advises Ned that the law is on his side thanks to Robert's last testament... but that that is not good enough, and that it would be prudent to act decisively to prevent the Lannisters from a coup.

1 hour ago, Lee-Sensei said:

3) Stannis says that Renly spent his time on the council mostly joking with Littlefinger (although it's fair to point out that Stannis has a bias, he's usually willing to give begrudging credit).

He would have no reason to give the brother he sees as a disloyal usurper any credit. And Littlefinger japing at the small council did not prevent him from greatly increasing the crown's revenues, so why would Renly jesting prevent him from fulfilling his duties?

As others say, the fact that Ned is not apparently bothered by the state of legal matters such that he meets with Renly to discuss them or asks for records to peruse suggests that Renly was, at worst, a perfectly mediocre Master of Laws, not worth remarking on either way. This is not some great sin.

 

[Craving Peaches]

2 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

2) Renly never talks about the importance of the law

Because no one asks... It is not really something you just randomly bring up. It would look really odd if Catelyn was walking with Renly and then Renly randomly started going on about how important the law was and the changes Aerys I made to Act X and how in this case blah blah…

And again, Stannis never talks about the importance of shipping, naval maintenance, etc. But I don't assume he was a bad Master of Ships.

The only person who mentions the law frequently is Stannis, and he mentions it to try and justify either what he feels he's entitled to, or something morally dubious he's doing. No one makes remarks, casual or otherwise, about the 'importance' of the law.

2 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

3) Stannis says that Renly spent his time on the council mostly joking with Littlefinger (although it's fair to point out that Stannis has a bias, he's usually willing to give begrudging credit).

And others might say that Stannis spent his time on council mostly sulking and complaining about what he was owed...

45 minutes ago, Ran said:

As others say, the fact that Ned is not apparently bothered by the state of legal matters such that he meets with Renly to discuss them or asks for records to peruse suggests that Renly was, at worst, a perfectly mediocre Master of Laws, not worth remarking on either way. This is not some great sin.

And I don't buy the argument that Ned just didn't notice/wasn't bothered. He is bothered by how things are being run, which is why he is so concerned with the state of the Kingdom's finances. If there were similar legal issues, I think Ned would try to do something about it, or at least acknowledge the issue. Aside from Slynt's corruption, which no one can do anything about as Robert doesn't want them to, the only legal 'issues' we see when we know Renly is on the Small Council, are an increase in crime in the run up to the Tourney of the Hand, and the issue of Robert's will. And we see Renly deal with this by threatening to replace Slynt, and giving Ned sound (legal) advice on the matter of the will.

[Lee-Sensei]

I don't want to get in the thick of that discussion again. I'll say this though. Comparing it to Renly talking about bathing or training at arms is wrongheaded. Not only does Renly not seem interested in enforcing the laws, but he's actively violating one of their most important laws. The law of succession, because he wants the throne. Robb and Balon are taking up the old crowns of their ancestors. Stannis is Robert's rightful heir. Joffrey thought he was Robert's rightful heir. Renly knows he's not the rightful heir. He just doesn't care, because he has power and power's all that matters to him. He would have won outside of Stannis' assassination, but he was flagrantly violating the law.

[Ran]

1 hour ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Not only does Renly not seem interested in enforcing the laws

He certainly showed interest in the laws being enforced when he criticized Slynt for failing to do it, so I think you need to give up repeating this false claim that he didn't "seem interested". 

1 hour ago, Lee-Sensei said:

he's actively violating one of their most important laws.

The same law that Robert and all his followers -- including Stannis -- violated. Renly literally cites the precedent of his brother. He claimed the crown because Joffrey and the Lannisters were a threat to him, as Aerys was a threat to Robert  -- a fact underscored and admitted to, multiple times, by several of the Lannisters and by at least one third party (Varys) -- and because Stannis did not act. Had Stannis acted first, who knows, maybe things would have played out differently. But Stannis just sat there for weeks, months even, before declaring himself.

Beyond that, Stannis does not know he is Robert's rightful heir -- he believes it, but even he admits he does not have proof. When Catelyn invites him to lay his claims before a Great Council, he scoffs at the notion.

1 hour ago, Lee-Sensei said:

but he was flagrantly violating the law.

As Robert did, and Stannis did in turn when he supported Robert. I think you can see why there's some sense that Stannis's hypocrisy does not seem very persuasive to me, and to others. The fact that he felt torn up about it doesn't mean it can be ignored -- when push came to shove, he chose what was best for him and his family, not the law.

Edited August 21, 2023 by Ran

[Alester Florent]

4 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

I don't want to get in the thick of that discussion again. I'll say this though. Comparing it to Renly talking about bathing or training at arms is wrongheaded. Not only does Renly not seem interested in enforcing the laws, but he's actively violating one of their most important laws. The law of succession, because he wants the throne. Robb and Balon are taking up the old crowns of their ancestors. Stannis is Robert's rightful heir. Joffrey thought he was Robert's rightful heir. Renly knows he's not the rightful heir. He just doesn't care, because he has power and power's all that matters to him. He would have won outside of Stannis' assassination, but he was flagrantly violating the law.

Clearly, Robert created a legal precedent that when the king is unfit to rule and has to be overthrown by force, the rightful successor is the lord of Storm's End.

Unfortunately, Renly, legal eagle, is the only person in Westeros to have worked this out.

Edited August 21, 2023 by Alester Florent

[Craving Peaches]

3 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

Clearly, Robert created a legal precedent that when the king is unfit to rule and has to be overthrown by force, the rightful successor is the lord of Storm's End.

Unfortunately, Renly, legal eagle, is the only person in Westeros to have worked this out.

It's a bit like the concept of the Mandate of Heaven. Aerys lost the Mandate so Robert was 'allowed' to overthrow him. Joffrey lost the Mandate so Renly is 'allowed' to overthrow him.

[Lee-Sensei]

Nah. What Robert did and what Renly did weren't the same thing at all and that's why they're not treated as the same in the books. Robert was a one time thing when his life was on the line. He was literally forced to either kill himself or fight. Renly was beyond Cersei's reach and safe.

Poor Quentyn. (tumblr.com)

This is much more negative than I would put it and I think that Renly had the potential to be a good king, but it's not entirely inaccurate imo. I still really like the character though.

[Ran]

3 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Renly was beyond Cersei's reach and safe.

He was beyond her reach... until she had consolidated power and Lord Tywin had settled matters with the riverlands and the North. Than his life was also on the line as much as Robert's was. Everyone knew it.

The reason the North, the Riverlands, the Reach, the Stormlands, and Stannis all had the arguable right to rebel was that it was exceedingly obvious to everybody that Cersei and Joffrey were tyrants. Their demand that all sorts of people present themselves to make obeissance was a decidedly unclever approach to convincing people otherwise, because they were basically inviting people to present themselves as hostages.

Renly's perspective was that the social contract was void because he knew -- and he was right -- that he would be killed because Cersei would brook no rivals. She hadn't gone quite so far as demanding his head explicitly, but it was a matter of time, as made very clear by others who knew what was going on, like Varys. Remember, Varys knew Cersei wanted to kill R Renly and Stannis before either had even declared their intentions.

If he was just a thug, he should have acted to seize Joffrey on his own when Ned refused, and present himself as the decisive leader who would very gladly take over the role of Lord Protector if Ned wanted to return North, and then bump the kids to crown himself. But he genuinely did not want to be king until it seemed like the best way to secure his own safety and power. As king, he gathered the largest army Westeros had ever seen. As just the rebel Lord of Storm's End, he might well have been able to hole up for awhile and wait to see where the winds blew, but all odds were in favor of the Lannisters at that time, so it was a chancy bet.

 

 

 

[csuszka1948]

2 hours ago, Ran said:

If he was just a thug, he should have acted to seize Joffrey on his own when Ned refused, and present himself as the decisive leader who would very gladly take over the role of Lord Protector if Ned wanted to return North, and then bump the kids to crown himself.

 

Why would he do this?

It would be utter idiocy from his part - without Ned's help, he lacks legitimacy and power to take Cersei's kids hostage and hold them. Abandoning Ned - hoping that he confronts the Lannisters who imprison him, prompting war between the Iron Throne and the North - is a much better move.

 

[Ran]

20 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

It would be utter idiocy from his part - without Ned's help, he lacks legitimacy and power to take Cersei's kids hostage and hold them.

Because Cersei and the Lannisters are largely feared and hated. He could easily enough claim that they arranged Robert's murder and that would be his cause, and as their uncle and a member of the small council he has a responsibility to their welfare to the welfare of the realm. Whatever. He's a charming political person and he would be able to put it together. There would be confusion in much the realm... but who was going to rise up for Joffrey, other than the Lannisters? The lords of the Reach and Stormlands would back him, the Tullys certainly weren't going to complain, nor the Vale. Ned might call it irregular, and he'd rue any bloodshed as Robert lay dying, but what's he going to do if it's handed to him on a plate? He'd just accept it, in the end.

I don't think he abandoned Ned with this notion that it would trigger a war. In fact, it nearly didn't. I think he abandoned Ned because, again, he wasn't actually a thug -- he wasn't angling to become king -- and because he didn't want to die. So he fled.

 

[The Wondering Wolf]

On 8/20/2023 at 8:04 PM, Ran said:

There's no evidence that anyone has held a small council post at 16.

What about Rodrik Arryn?

[Ran]

1 hour ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

What about Rodrik Arryn?

Thought he was a little bit older, but you're in fact right, looks like he was in that area.

Yes, he's the one clear example. I could point to the fact that he's supposed to have been some sort of savant genius, but regardless, Robert hardly needed that excuse if he really wanted to put Renly as Master of Laws.

So I'll just fall back on the fact that no one bothers to remark on it. In F&B a special point is made of his age, and I daresay George could have pointed out that Renly came to his post young as well if he wanted to. But... only George really knows. I'll just stand by the fact that we don't actually know who the Master of Laws was prior to Renly, nor when his tenure began. It's a question for George to answer.

[SeanF]

I’m not sure that the Master of Laws has any function, other than to provide a justification for the government’s actions.

Law and justice, as we understand them, don’t exist in Westeros.

[The Wondering Wolf]

8 hours ago, Ran said:

In F&B a special point is made of his age

What I find interesting is that his age does not even come up when he is made master of laws. It is only mentioned when he is introduced in 54 AC and when he is a suitor for Daella in 80 AC, so you can easily miss that he was only 16 in 60 AC. The first time I noticed his young age, I was really surprised, but I guess it is alright since he is described as an erudite young man.

[Lord Varys]

There are even younger people on the Small Council than Rodrik Arryn. Queen Alysanne joins it when her brother-husband starts to run his government himself - and then the queen is but fourteen.

We also have Prince Viserys effectively on what would count as the Small Council at the end of the Regency era. Viserys presides over/runs the informal Great Council which appoints new regents, and we can expect that he will sit on Aegon III's Small Council from the start - even if he isn't given a former title or office yet (although he could be given an office - Manderly might not be the only guy Aegon III is going to sack when he takes power into his own hands).

Even if there is some informality to such things, with that informality comes real power. And the crucial part in this 'ministers without ministries' world is your voice on the council when a collective decision is made, not so much whether you do some lawyering, play with ships, or count coins.

How irrelevant the offices as such are we also see in FaB and to a lesser degree in Barristan's memories from ADwD - smart and shady people in high office are used for plots and schemes, no matter what their actual job description says - that is what men like Rego Draz, Albin Massey, Bloodraven, Varys, Littlefinger, and Tyrion have in common - no matter what they actually do.

In a real sense the nepotism and 'appointment by closeness of kin and high birth' is one of the very accurate elements in the world - as it is modernist nonsense that training and education and experience qualify you for a position. In medieval and early modern times kinship and birth were what qualified a man to the minister or general of an emperor or king.

If people are born to the purple, if they are born to rule ... then they are also born with the necessary ability to rule. And so are their ministers. That is the ideology behind such appointments.