Recommended: new 'Wall Origin' theory

[sweetsunray]

8 minutes ago, Tyrosh Lannister said:

What about Winterfells heart tree standing right in front of a water pool ? its not giant sized

True. I was only joking. I don't think that's the answer.

I'm not even convinced that the Wall-weirwoods are all this giant sized. It may be that only the one of the Nightfort is that giant sized, and if so, then it is due to magical reasons: a special wildfire greenseer choosing it for his second life.

Other weirwoods have carved faces, but that would be the sole one with a moving face that operates like a gate to pass through. Though Theon saw Bran's face appear for a moment in the WF tree.

Jon has noted that the height of the Wall can be deceptive. That in some places, the ice isn't all that high, but on top of a hill ridge made from stone and soil. The wildlings chose such a spot to climb the ice of the Wall for that reason. It's also the spot where the Wall shudders like a tree and shakes off Jarl and a good chunk of ice. So, that seems to indicate a location where there is a weirwood tree, but nowhere as high as that of the Nightfort.

ETA: but even then they are still larger than most we've seen. I think another reason is the clearing of the forest for 2 miles from the Wall. This allows the trees to monopolize the nutrients in the soil. Winterfell's tree has to share with 3 acres of wild godswood

Edited September 3, 2023 by sweetsunray

[Phylum of Alexandria]

Major kudos for his linking of the Black Gate's salty drip with the Wall's weeping. I think that probably was GRRM's intention there, and I can't believe I didn't see it before.

I can totally buy that weirwoods are inside the Wall. I had already bought the notion that they were underground the foundations, so why not lining the perimeter trapped under the ice? Either way, they would be the giants awakened from the earth.

I think he's leaning too hard into the show's details, and is avoiding the many associations of the weirwoods with warmth rather than extreme cold or fire. But I'm curious to see where he'll take his larger argument.

 

[Seams]

11 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

White Harbor and Wolf's Den are at the end of the White Knife. Do we know of any White Knife? Isn't there one far down south. It's rather long, light and very very sharp, and it can give off white light apparently.

As for two wards fighting. What happens if one ward "yields"?

Hard to know whether the White Knife river is intended to refer to the sword with the light. If it does, what is the significance of House Manderly being installed at its mouth by House Stark? And why does Alysanne enter the North through White Harbor?

I suppose we should also ask why Arya hangs around in Purple Harbor. Is she entering an off-limits realm, similar to Alysanne entering the North? Is purple a Targ color (associated with their violet eyes)? Are there other parallels between Alysanne entering the North at White Harbor and Arya gaining access to the restricted Purple Harbor?

So far, our best hint about the river called the White Knife is Septon Chayle, the Septon who oversees the library at Winterfell, and who put up masks in the Sept. (I bet it's significant that the New Gods at Winterfell are represented by masks.) 

Nice catch on "yield." I bet it is the opposite of "shield." So this would be an important moment in removing a ward or creating a breach in a wall. 

[Tyrosh Lannister]

19 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

True. I was only joking. I don't think that's the answer.

I'm not even convinced that the Wall-weirwoods are all this giant sized. It may be that only the one of the Nightfort is that giant sized, and if so, then it is due to magical reasons: a special wildfire greenseer choosing it for his second life.

Other weirwoods have carved faces, but that would be the sole one with a moving face that operates like a gate to pass through. Though Theon saw Bran's face appear for a moment in the WF tree.

Jon has noted that the height of the Wall can be deceptive. That in some places, the ice isn't all that high, but on top of a hill ridge made from stone and soil. The wildlings chose such a spot to climb the ice of the Wall for that reason. It's also the spot where the Wall shudders like a tree and shakes off Jarl and a good chunk of ice. So, that seems to indicate a location where there is a weirwood tree, but nowhere as high as that of the Nightfort.

ETA: but even then they are still larger than most we've seen. I think another reason is the clearing of the forest for 2 miles from the Wall. This allows the trees to monopolize the nutrients in the soil. Winterfell's tree has to share with 3 acres of wild godswood

About that trees monopolizing nutrients... Wouldn't it be much more with hundreds of giant weirwoods competing with each other ? 

[sweetsunray]

4 hours ago, Tyrosh Lannister said:

About that trees monopolizing nutrients... Wouldn't it be much more with hundreds of giant weirwoods competing with each other ? 

Not necessarily, no. Depends on the distance between each. But clearing shrub and sapplings away from "parklane trees" is a thing to give them optimum height.

 

[sweetsunray]

Ward-stuff. A rather obvious one: the army divisions of van, main and rear of battle formation in the middle ages were "guards" or "wards". The van or vanguard comes from the French avant-garde and the rearguard from arrier-garde. This can be extended to sword duel positions of the sword in comparison to the body. These too are called "guards" or "wards".

[Sandy Clegg]

On 9/9/2023 at 11:49 AM, sweetsunray said:

Ward-stuff. A rather obvious one: the army divisions of van, main and rear of battle formation in the middle ages were "guards" or "wards". The van or vanguard comes from the French avant-garde and the rearguard from arrier-garde. This can be extended to sword duel positions of the sword in comparison to the body. These too are called "guards" or "wards".

I thought I should take a look at 'warden' in the Chambers dictionary. There is some interesting stuff here, but whether or not it's useful depends on the depth and breadth of GRRM's knowledge of English (or indeed his desire to research words). I tend to think he goes deep into these areas, but naturally I would say that. Anyway ... 

Quote

1. warden

A kind of pear used esp in cooking

Any connections which are based on obscure food or gardening terms may be valuable, as these are two areas George has drawn our attention to: a) via the visibly long food descriptions in the books, and b) through his famous claim that he is a 'gardener' writer. So I like this connection very much, especially as pears crop up in a few odd places - Viserion knocking the pear off the tree by Dany, Bonifer Hasty eating a dried-up pear, to name just two. Both scenes have the scent of symbolism about them.

Quote

2. Warden of the Cinque Ports (five ports)

The governor of the Cinque Ports, having the authority of an admiral and the power to hold a court of admiralty

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Warden_of_the_Cinque_Ports

Obviously this may connect to the Five Forts in far east Essos. We've already seen how the words harbor and arbor can be connected. A fort is a protective structure, like the Wall. And just as the Wall has both harbor and arbor symbolism, George may be playing with fort/port wordplay. Did the Five Forts have their own ward and warden?

Quote

2. Warden of the Mint

Warden of the Mint was a high-ranking position at the Royal Mint in England from 1216 to 1829. The warden was responsible for a variety of minting procedures and acted as the immediate representative of the current monarch inside the mint. 

Possibly more of value as pub quiz trivia, this one. But in the Davos II  post I posited that The Wall is cryptically clued as the Old Mint there.

More trivia. Apparently Sir Isaac Newton was once Warden of the Mint (before getting promoted to Master of the Mint). The first ever Warden was Henry de Cornhill. 

[Evolett]

Earlier we discussed curtain walls, curtains, and drapes as representing wards. I personally think the "curtain of light" separating the Land of Winter from the rest is a magical ward and that Patchface's "gowns of silver seaweed" may be symbolic wards as well. They are gowns - part of a woman's wardrobe. 

We also noted Jon's use of the flaming drapes in Mormont's chambers to ward off and kill off wighted Other - another example of "a curtain of light." Anyway, it occurred to me that the tokar could be another example of such drapes or curtains:

Quote

The garment was a clumsy thing, a long loose shapeless sheet that had to be wound around her hips and under an arm and over a shoulder, its dangling fringes carefully layered and displayed. Wound too loose, it was like to fall off; wound too tight, it would tangle, trip, and bind.

 

The tokar is GRRM's version of a Roman toga, nothing but a sheet, quite similar to drapes or curtains. There are two examples of the dragons setting tokar's on fire, the first instance involving the Yunkish envoy who tries to buy off Dany with gold:

Quote

“Am I?” Dany shrugged, and said, “Dracarys.” The dragons answered. Rhaegal hissed and smoked, Viserion snapped, and Drogon spat swirling red-black flame. It touched the drape of Grazdan’s tokar, and the silk caught in half a heartbeat.

 

In the second instance, Viserion sets Reznak's tokar on fire:

Quote

Rhaegal had snapped at Irri, and Viserion had set Reznak’s tokar ablaze the last time the seneschal had called.

 

Perhaps these burning tokars parallel the burning drapes in Mormont's chambers. Grazdan was an enemy and because of Quaithe's warnings, Daenerys was very suspicious of Reznak whom she thought might be the "perfumed seneshal."

Would setting a tokar ablaze be akin to activating a "curtain of light" or a ward (the tokar being part of a person's wardrobe)?

It's interesting that the tokars are lit by dragons and Jon of course is a secret dragon.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Evolett

[Wizz-The-Smith]

On 9/11/2023 at 11:25 AM, Sandy Clegg said:

I thought I should take a look at 'warden' in the Chambers dictionary. There is some interesting stuff here, but whether or not it's useful depends on the depth and breadth of GRRM's knowledge of English (or indeed his desire to research words). I tend to think he goes deep into these areas, but naturally I would say that. Anyway ... 

Loving all the chat around the 'ward' links and wordplay. 

Another angle I feel we should be looking at is the connection between wards and hostages. George has hinted at such a connection.

Quote

Since the night they had stood side by side in Greyjoy's fallen stronghold, where Robert had accepted the rebel lord's surrender and Ned had taken his son Theon as hostage and ward, the king had gained at least eight stone. (Ned I, AGOT)

Quote

"I was a boy of ten when I was taken to Winterfell as a ward of Eddard Stark." A ward in name, a hostage in truth. Half his days a hostage. (Theon I, ACOK)

Quote

"A ward can easily become a hostage, if need be." (Catleyn V, ACOK)

If, as I've speculated up thread, the greenseer(s) at the base of the tree/trees may have been Otherised, they may be a ward (or wards) taken from the Others, or indeed could be seen as hostages. They may well be what my friends and I call a 'good Other', someone who has been Otherised but still fights for mortal man. What Jon may turn into or what we see in Coldhands. Such a character would forfeit their lives to the Watch, Coldhands roaming the North, or perhaps a greenseer inhabiting a weirwood at the base of the Wall.

It would be akin to the tale of Monster, a stolen Other baby, a ward, a hostage. An important individual stolen from the Others that fights the good fight for mortal man. Dedicating their lives to the Watch. It would enable the Ice magic that would build the Wall, and fulfill the trope of using the enemies strength to defeat them by creating the magical ice Wall and ward etc. The whole 'good Other' angle is too big to dive into here, but there's plenty of text to parse and speculate in regards to this line of thinking.

Onto the etymology of the word 'hostage. 

The Latin root of the word hostage is 'obsid'. This strongly suggests the word hostage being linked to obsidian. So if a hostage can be linked to obsidian, an Otherised hostage or ward woven into the magical fabric of the Wall may provide the same prohibitive properties that we see with obsidian and the Others. Something that would repel them, defeat them, kill them. Perhaps this is why they can't cross the Wall? Perhaps the ward/hostage/obsidian is the key behind the magical barrier the Others cannot cross?

Sorry for not being as active as I'd like, I'm still loving the thread even if I can't find the time to participate frequently. I found this etymology/wordplay recently and thought I've got to throw it out there, so I've cobbled together a quick and probably incoherent post. I think there's something there, but would love to hear all your thoughts. 

[ravenous reader]

On 8/30/2023 at 6:03 AM, Kienn said:

The real magic of the Wall is the cold. It doesn’t block magic, it simply brings/maintains the cold, much like the white walkers.

I like @Voice’s theory regarding the ward beneath the Wall — which he already brilliantly argued so many years ago was formed by the trees — not Melisandre, being responsible for having zapped Orell’s/Varamyr’s eagle as the skinchanger transgressed the ward by flying too close to the Wall, after wandering too far south due to becoming disoriented in the midst of the battle. The eagle was immolated as if by inverse lightning rather than frozen, having flown too close to the invisible boundary extending perpendicularly above the Wall. If the ward extends above the Wall, then it functions much like an invisible electric fence repels dogs, implying that it’s primary purpose is indeed to block, even consume, practitioners of magic, rather than just preserving the cold.

Edited September 16, 2023 by ravenous reader

[Sandy Clegg]

52 minutes ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

The Latin root of the word hostage is 'obsid'. This strongly suggests the word hostage being linked to obsidian. So if a hostage can be linked to obsidian, an Otherised hostage or ward woven into the magical fabric of the Wall may provide the same prohibitive properties that we see with obsidian and the Others.

That wold be a nice connection. Host has one of those weird etymology paths that derives from PIE it seems, where the words for guest / ghost / host all kind of used to mean the same thing, i.e. 'one who enters your home, either invited or uninvited.'

*ghos-ti- 

Proto-Indo-European root meaning "stranger, guest, host," properly "someone with whom one has reciprocal duties of hospitality," representing "a mutual exchange relationship highly important to ancient Indo-European society" [Watkins]. But as strangers are potential enemies as well as guests, the word has a forked path.

https://www.etymonline.com/word/hostage

In this sense, it's possible to take the Stranger as a symbolic host/guest/ward. Obviously the idea of ghosts -> Others -> metaphorical 'guests' as wards is intriguing and brings together a lot of the ideas in this thread, too. You can see these words' origins in all sorts of places, e.g. geist (which looks more like English 'guest'), the German word for 'ghost or spirit'.  See also the 'host' which is eaten at Catholic mass which represents the Holy Spirit, or Eucharist. As someone raised Catholic, GRRM would be well aware of all the host/spirit connotations of this etymology tree I think.

Edited September 16, 2023 by Sandy Clegg

[Seams]

17 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Onto the etymology of the word 'hostage. 

The Latin root of the word hostage is 'obsid'.

Fantastic catch. Thank you for sharing. 

I have been suspicious for some time of the phrase, "The maesters call it obsidian." this seems to be thrown in - several times - for no discernable reason. So I assumed it had a hidden meaning and tried an anagram. I think the phrase hides the word "antibodies." There must be a longer solution involving the other letters, but that was all I needed to recognize that the Miasma Theory was an excellent analysis of GRRM's thinking about the Others and dragon glass. (Look for @Voice's forum called The Last Hearth for the lengthy evidence in favor of the Miasma Theory.) 

Tying obsidian to hostages adds a rich layer of potential meaning. 

There are a lot of specific words and phrases connected to Jon Snow finding the dragon glass bundle near the Fist: bundle, clinked, frayed rope, leaf-shaped, featherlight, razor, ancient cache, old place. (I have written elsewhere that I suspect "old place" is code for "pale cold.") Probably other key words I haven't even recognized. It would be interesting to see how many of the obsidian-related descriptions are also associated with hostages.

The dragonglass dagger singled out by Jon Snow is described this way: "Torchlight ran along its edge, a thin orange line that spoke of razor sharpness." I think this dagger is Jon Snow's version of Lightbringer. (There are others in other character arcs.) I wonder whether Hoster the Hostage (obsid!) turns out to be Jaime's LIghtbringer? I think it's significant that the hero has to make his own sword, and Jaime may be forging his own sword/antibodies when he negotiates (forges) the truce to bring peace to the Riverlands. 

[Seams]

I want to throw this into the Wall discussion and I see that it may be directly relevant to the host / ghost / hostage etymology word play:

Quote

The stone wall was old and crumbling, but the sight of it across the field made the hairs on Brienne's neck stand up.

That was where the archers hid and slew poor Cleos Frey, she thought . . . but half a mile farther on she passed another wall that looked much like the first and found herself uncertain. The rutted road turned and twisted, and the bare brown trees looked different from the green ones she remembered. Had she ridden past the place where Ser Jaime had snatched his cousin's sword from its scabbard? Where were the woods they'd fought in? The stream where they'd splashed and slashed at one another until they drew the Brave Companions down upon them?

"My lady? Ser?" Podrick never seemed certain what to call her. "What are you looking for?"

Ghosts. "A wall I rode by once. It does not matter." It was when Ser Jaime still had both his hands. How I loathed him, with all his taunts and smiles. "Stay quiet, Podrick. There may still be outlaws in these woods."

AFfC, Brienne III

Brienne is trying to figure out whether she is at the same wall where she and Jaime and Ser Cleos Frey had a critical moment together. When Pod asks her what she is looking for, she says, "Ghosts." If ghosts / hostages / obsidian are all related, it might be that Brienne needs to find that particular stone wall in order to complete her quest. Maybe she needs to cross back over at that location to get out of Otherworld and back into mainstream world?

The trio of two kings guard members (Brienne was a Rainbow Guard) and a Frey (Lord of the Crossing) is significant for completing a crossing, I suspect. Will she be able to cross back with the new trio formed with Ser Hyle and Pod? Or is her meet-up with Jaime at Pennytree a step toward restoring the trio that included Ser Cleos? Will she collect another Frey somewhere in order to complete her promise to Catelyn?

[Wizz-The-Smith]

On 9/17/2023 at 3:31 PM, Seams said:

Fantastic catch. Thank you for sharing

Thank you.  I thought you would like that. A pleasure to share, if anyone can develop this wordplay/etymology then it's you. 

The fact that obsidian can be linked to hostages, it made me think that the fire in 'frozen fire' is the hostage in the case of obsidian. If we link that to the idea that an ancient greenseer may be being kept hostage inside a tree within the Wall it adds weight to my thought that this greenseer may be a dragon person. A remnant of the Empire of the Dawn, a fiery person locked in the ice. A hostage/obsid. Something akin to Jon or Bloodraven. Is there something in this that made George adamant that he had to make the last greenseer a Targaryen? 

On 9/17/2023 at 3:31 PM, Seams said:

I have been suspicious for some time of the phrase, "The maesters call it obsidian." this seems to be thrown in - several times - for no discernable reason. So I assumed it had a hidden meaning and tried an anagram. I think the phrase hides the word "antibodies." There must be a longer solution involving the other letters, but that was all I needed to recognize that the Miasma Theory was an excellent analysis of GRRM's thinking about the Others and dragon glass.

Well, the later Latin root of hostage is 'obsidatus'. So if we get really creative (like, extremely creative) we could scramble the letters to get 'autibodss'. Turn the 'u' upside-down and we get 'antibodss'.  

I love all the etymology links and anagrams, though I'm not sure about this one. I shall leave it to the anagram expert to discern whether or not this has any relevance. It is right there though. Would George want us sleuths to turn a 'u' upside-down? I like to make the anagrams work perfectly, but I know you often speculate on words that may need a letter added or taken away etc. It's definitely worth throwing out there anyway considering the esteemed and creative company contributing to this thread.

I totally agree about Voice's theory, it is absolutely brilliant, a must read for anyone hasn't yet done so. 

On 9/17/2023 at 3:31 PM, Seams said:

Tying obsidian to hostages adds a rich layer of potential meaning.

Absolutely. I was excited to find it. Hopefully we can brainstorm as a collective and build this idea further. 

Edited September 21, 2023 by Wizz-The-Smith

[Seams]

9 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

an ancient greenseer may be being kept hostage inside a tree within the Wall it adds weight to my thought that this greenseer may be a dragon person.

I bet the disappearance of Rhaenys (sister wife of Aegon the Conqueror) is a parallel to this. The letter from Dorne could have told Aegon that his sister-wife was a hostage. He immediately flew to Dragonstone to check something - the obsidian supply?

[Sandy Clegg]

On 9/21/2023 at 3:33 PM, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Would George want us sleuths to turn a 'u' upside-down? I like to make the anagrams work perfectly, but I know you often speculate on words that may need a letter added or taken away etc.

Yeah, I think anagrams have to abide by some kind of 'fair-play' ruleset in order to be viable. Doesn't mean there isn't a Rosetta Stone of sorts lurking somewhere that might help make sense of it all.

[Sandy Clegg]

The recent sad news about the vandalised felling of the Hadrian's Wall sycamore tree made me wonder whether GRRM might not have come across this famous image when using Hadran's Wall as the inspiration for his Wall. The tree - framed 'within' Hadrian's Wall -  was so famous that people would propose there. It even featured in Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves. Here is the tree when it still stood:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sycamore_Gap_Tree

It very much combines the Wall/Tree imagery that has been discussed in this thread, so wonder whether GRRM had somehow used this image as inspiration.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

On 10/3/2023 at 4:28 PM, Sandy Clegg said:

Yeah, I think anagrams have to abide by some kind of 'fair-play' ruleset in order to be viable. Doesn't mean there isn't a Rosetta Stone of sorts lurking somewhere that might help make sense of it all.

Yeah, agreed. I thought I'd throw it out there. Much like everyone else in this thread I enjoy having fun with the language. This one did seem a bit too far of a stretch though. 

[Wizz-The-Smith]

On 10/8/2023 at 4:20 PM, Sandy Clegg said:

The recent sad news about the vandalised felling of the Hadrian's Wall sycamore tree made me wonder whether GRRM might not have come across this famous image when using Hadran's Wall as the inspiration for his Wall. The tree - framed 'within' Hadrian's Wall -  was so famous that people would propose there. It even featured in Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves. Here is the tree when it still stood:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sycamore_Gap_Tree

It very much combines the Wall/Tree imagery that has been discussed in this thread, so wonder whether GRRM had somehow used this image as inspiration.

Very cool! 

This is absolutely a possibility. 

[Kienn]

On 9/16/2023 at 5:06 PM, ravenous reader said:

being responsible for having zapped Orell’s/Varamyr’s eagle as the skinchanger transgressed the ward by flying too close to the Wall, after wandering too far south due to becoming disoriented in the midst of the battle.

Varamyr had already flown the eagle across the Wall to scout castle black. There’s no magical electric fence above the Wall.