The Fandom and Always Looking From a Male Perspective

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

Okay, I am back, this time because of just a general vibe from the fandom. I want to say first, there are a lot in the fandom who DON'T do this (I assume particularly female or nonbinary fans, lol), however, there is still a lot of....let's be charitable and say ignorance (rather than sexist delusions) of how a female character may view the world rather than viewing everything through a male lens. I want to add yet another caveat and mention...I actually think GRRM does a much better job at writing female characters than many of these fans do while analyzing the text. I am not saying GRRM never is sexist (the sexualization of Daenerys in her own POV for example is something that always bothered me. Why is Daenerys so very aware of her own breasts all the time?), however I actually think he is a lot better than a lot of male authors and he writes interesting and well developed female characters. So, let's move to examples : 

1. Female characters and their romantic interests - This is most prominent when discussing Daenerys. Daario is...well a flamboyant and interesting dude, and I think due to our own culture preferences...hard to understand sometimes as a love interest. However, I think if you can pretend you liked some of the unusual clothes/hair/beard styles, he is not wholly uncharming. A lot of women do in real life like men like Daario, just take out the beard/hair styles, lol. Is he a fit consort for a queen by cultural standards of the time? No, he isn't. However....do you know who else has unfit lovers? A lot of the male characters. Tyrion has a prostitute for a lover, Theon has...also a prostitute for a lover, and Jon has a wildling for a lover. There is plenty of male characters making similar decisions in their love life, but for some reason the fandom focuses entirely on Daenerys. There is also a tendency to make Daario into more than he is. Daenerys having a love interest....makes sense. Most young people have crushes. The male characters in these books have crushes. Moving outside of just Daenerys, Arianne is often talked about negatively with regard to her love interests, and Sansa is too. However, let's focus on Sansa for point 2. 

2. Female characters and looking at their unfit partners from a male perspective. Sansa is the obvious go to here. So many in the fandom take things from Tyrion's point of view, rather than Sansa's. Okay, lets just imagine an example that would be....semi-similar the opposite way. Tywin forces Tyrion to marry Lolys Stokeworth rather than Sansa. I think perhaps in this scenario suddenly many male fans who try to say how Sansa should be okay with Tyrion will suddenly see Sansa's point of view. Listen, 1. Tyrion is too old for Sansa. 2. Tyrion is very ugly. Period. Men care about this the other direction, but try to pretend like they dont' have double standards when they clearly do. 3. Tyrion is the enemy. Notice that Sansa was pretty much okay with marrying Willas despite not even knowing what he looked like. She wnated to befree from the Lannisters. Willas is also crippled, and at the point in the book, Sansa is just ...okay with that. She is okay with someone less attractive...just not a Lannister. There are also other examples of this. Lack of understanding for Lysa is reasonable (I myself dislike Lysa as she is a liar and she, in my opinion, is responsible for Eddard's death by not just holding Tyrion normally and then trading him for Eddard), however....she was married to an old man and forced to abort a baby (which may have permantantly effected her ability to produce children). Like...that is f***ing horrible. I know, for men, this is hard to imagine (since we dont' carry babies)...but that is why it's called empathy. Trying to understand a character even without having the same experiences. Characters like Petyr or Stannis get all this support for their circumstances..meanwhile everyone has no such understanding for Lysa. Cersei as well gets this treatment...and that brings me to point number 3. 

3. Somehow not believing female characters evne from their own POV. Robert raped Cersei. GRRM has even I think confirmed this. (I just read a blog about it). Not believing Cersei even in her own POV is so freaking frustrating. Robert raped her, period. This isn't the only example of not believing characters in their own POVs, but this is by far the biggest example. 

4. Last one I promise - Not understanding how sexist societies are unfair/unfit, and that we as modern people...should not be judging this society by their own standards. I fully believe that GRRM wrote these books expecting people to look at them with modern eyes. We are meant to be horrified by certain things, we are meant to pick up on the sexism and be angry about it and recognize it's unfair. There are a lot of people who almost dismiss female characters entirely, or at least don't care about them. They refuse to engage with, try to empathize with, or relate to said female characters. I find this very frustrating. Look, of course we want to relate to characters that are like us...but I think its also possilb eto like and relate t characters unlike us. I am nothing like Eddard Stark, Catelyn Stark is more like my mom then she is like me, and Daenerys and I differ in many important ways, yet I can relate to, empathize with, and in fact, like, all these characters. Why not? And while I am relating to these characters, the sexist  double standards SHOULD make you feel trapped/unfair/angry. I jsut read the Sansa chapter where she is married to Tyrion and it so unbelievably frustrating. Trying to imagine if I had 0 say of who I would marry, could just be married off because they wanted to, and just....had 0 freedom...is so crazily uncomfortable. How Sansa is treated in these books is HORRIBLE. And yet Sansa seems to get more hate in the fandom then she gets love/understanding. Arya also has her share of unfair/uncomfortable situations she is forced through. Catelyn is often ignored by others. Even Cersei, a character I love to hate, does actually hve legitimate grievances against her society/unfair treatment she receives. I think we should also not forget that Cersei is herself a misogynist (how she treats other women is telling), however she is also a victim of that patriarchal system. If you read this book and come away thinking "people should just get in line with their society's codes of gendered actions", I think you are doing a bad job of reading the book to be blunt. I honestly believe books that don't hide the sexism, racism, homophobia, etc. can often be anti-sexism/racism/homophobia etc in a way that books that make some perfect world cannot. I almost think those other books/media are whitewashing the reality/history, rather than actually confronting it. To me GRRM is kind of lacking in the racism department (he does too much repeating of racism stereotypes and has very few POC characters), however I think he does confront both sexism and homophobia and perhaps gender non-conformity ...and there is nuance to how he deals with all three. 

 

Anyways, that's it. Sorry, it's long again. 

[SaffronLady]

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

the sexualization of Daenerys in her own POV for example is something that always bothered me. Why is Daenerys so very aware of her own breasts all the time?

Because ... she's a teenager with a developing body?

 

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Somehow not believing female characters evne from their own POV. Robert raped Cersei. GRRM has even I think confirmed this. (I just read a blog about it).

This is really hard to understand. But for people who do, Cersei aborting Robert's children certainly makes sense.

 

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

There are a lot of people who almost dismiss female characters entirely, or at least don't care about them. They refuse to engage with, try to empathize with, or relate to said female characters.

I'd like to make a special case for Dany here: she is certainly mentioned a lot around here, but not because she is ... well, herself, but as an object of worship. It is sort of the same thing you are saying here: she is not being empathized with, just objectified in a different manner.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

Quote

The Fandom and Always Looking From a Male Perspective.

For what it’s worth, the author of the series is male. So a lot of it may come from that.

Edited September 12, 2023 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[Nevets]

Virtually every premodern civilization has placed restrictions on the activities of women, and especially romantic activities. There is a reason for this.  It is called pregnancy.  In a world like this, and for most of real life history, there is no easy reliable birth control and no reliable means of determining paternity.  So if you are worried about unintended or undesired pregnancy, you will adopt policies and customs to limit them.  Confining sex to married couples is a big one.  Limiting the mixing of unmarried men and women is another.  And it often makes sense for women to raise their children, especially since that keeps them home and out of potential mischief, or threats to their safety.  There are usually good, or not bad, reasons why societies do things, even things us modern types find distasteful or even offensive.

I have noticed that most medieval style fantasy that I read, especially that by women, contains reliable contraceptives, usually a charm or potion.  That way the author can have their cake and eat it too.  Their female characters get a sex life without worrying about pregnancy.  Kind of like the modern world.  GRRM is being more realistic and doesn't play that game.  If his female characters have sex, pregnancy is a very real possible result.

Of course, this type of thing can get out of hand, and frequently does.  You start getting oppression for the sake of oppression and to conserve status and power, and that's wrong.  It is also worth noting that the modern Western attitude towards individual rights and autonomy is a comparatively recent one.  So I guess the best way of analyzing whether attitudes and rules are justified is to realize the inherent physical differences between the sexes and go from there.  I may try to make such determinations and otherwise elaborate once I've recovered from the evisceration I expect to receive.

Edited September 12, 2023 by Nevets

[Craving Peaches]

4 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I fully believe that GRRM wrote these books expecting people to look at them with modern eyes.

I agree to a certain extent, however I also think it can go to far when people start criticising some characters for this but others get a free pass because 'that's just how things were back then'. You have to be consistent. Everyone needs to be judged by the same set of standards.

4 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Trying to imagine if I had 0 say of who I would marry, could just be married off because they wanted to, and just....had 0 freedom...is so crazily uncomfortable

To be fair, it is both the bride and the groom who are being married off. The man involved doesn't usually get a say in it either. It is the parents who decide.

5 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I almost think those other books/media are whitewashing the reality/history, rather than actually confronting it.

I think this series does go a bit overboard sometimes. Like with how peasants are treated in the Riverlands. That only happens in cases like the Thirty Years War, not in the average medieval succession war. Most rulers would avoid treating people like that because of bad PR.

5 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

And yet Sansa seems to get more hate in the fandom then she gets love/understanding.

Yeah, people throw around claims that Sansa 'betrayed' her family and destroyed the Starks or something. Sansa is a child who had no idea what Cersei would do. 

[Daeron the Daring]

8 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yeah, people throw around claims that Sansa 'betrayed' her family and destroyed the Starks or something. Sansa is a child who had no idea what Cersei would do.

People hold accountable Joffrey at the same age. 

I'm saying they both shouldn't be, okay?

[Craving Peaches]

11 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

People hold accountable Joffrey at the same age. 

I'm saying they both shouldn't be, okay?

The things Joffrey does are not really on the level of what Sansa does though, and Joffrey is older. I mean, I would expect even a young child to realise cutting open a pregnant cat was wrong...

I don't know, they just don't seem remotely comparable to me. But I know you feel differently. Maybe we could agree to disagree?

Children should be 'let off' within limits. I just feel like what Joffrey did 'crosses the line', even for a child...

Edited September 12, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Daeron the Daring]

16 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't know, they just don't seem remotely comparable to me. But I know you feel differently.

Never meant to spread the implication of comparability of the two. It's just double standards.

16 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I would expect even a young child to realise cutting open a pregnant cat was wrong...

Who doesn't? 

The problem is ignoring what this indicates.

We just so happen to have our OP elaborate on why we need to use modern standards on the questions we face in the novels.

What I'm saying is that George punishes the reader for hating on Sansa. Instantly. But Joffrey is a victim of his surroundings as well, perhaps of even more. And the realisation can't and shouldn't be as emotional as it is with Sansa (or at all), but there's a point when it's just due.

Edited September 12, 2023 by Daeron the Daring

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Daeron the Daring said:

The problem is ignoring what this indicates.

I assume it indicates Joffrey is a psychopath (I know that isn't a proper medical term). But, where I live, being a psychopath doesn't absolve you of legal responsibility for your actions, because you understand what you are doing and what effects it will have. And from what I've heard from psychiatrists, psychopaths do understand what they are doing is 'wrong', they just don't care, because their 'desires' come first. 

2 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

It's just double standards.

I don't understand how it is double standards. Double standards would, to my knowledge, be giving Sansa a pass for doing X but not giving Joffrey the same. Here Sansa is doing X and Joffrey is doing Y. Sansa is acting like, in my view, a typical naïve child. Joffrey is not. In the same way I would 'give Sansa a pass' for being naïve about Cersei, I would give Joffrey a pass for the way he acted with Robb. But I would not give Joffrey a pass for having Sansa stripped and beaten, or ordering his guards to massacre peasants.

[Craving Peaches]

13 hours ago, Nevets said:

easy reliable birth control

Moon tea seems to be reliable, the issue is that not everyone can access it, rather than reliability. Of course, it has to be taken early or there is a risk of damaging the lady concerned, but they do seem to know this. The plants it is made from are fairly common...

[Nevets]

26 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Moon tea seems to be reliable, the issue is that not everyone can access it, rather than reliability. Of course, it has to be taken early or there is a risk of damaging the lady concerned, but they do seem to know this. The plants it is made from are fairly common...

We have no real information on the reliability of moon tea, but I would guess it is nowhere near as reliable as modern methods.  Probably a bit like a poor Plan B. For occasional use only.  It also does not appear to be easy to obtain, and from what I gather, some of the ingredients can be hazardous if not prepared properly or given in the right dose.  So the basic point remains, although Westeros, and its model, medieval Europe, are a lot more relaxed than some places, even today.

[Craving Peaches]

29 minutes ago, Nevets said:

We have no real information on the reliability of moon tea, but I would guess it is nowhere near as reliable as modern methods.  Probably a bit like a poor Plan B. For occasional use only.  It also does not appear to be easy to obtain, and from what I gather, some of the ingredients can be hazardous if not prepared properly or given in the right dose.  So the basic point remains, although Westeros, and its model, medieval Europe, are a lot more relaxed than some places, even today.

We know it works when Lysa uses it, the issue is when she's given it. It also seems to have worked every time for Cersei, for Asha, Arianne, and works for the prostitutes. So I always got the impression the problem was availability rather than reliability. I can't find any instance where someone has taken it and it hasn't worked, just that it has bad side effects if taken too late.

Edited September 12, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[SeanF]

The big difference in fandom attitudes towards male and female characters comes with attitudes towards the use of violence, in my opinion.

Women who use violence are frequently branded “mad,” “evil”, most obviously Dany, and Arya, but sometimes Catelyn, too.  Men who use violence are just carrying out a soldier’s duty, aside from the obvious psychopaths, like Ramsay or Ser Gregor.

Edited September 13, 2023 by SeanF

[SaffronLady]

17 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Women who use violence are frequently branded “mad,” “evil”, most obviously Dany, and Arya, but sometimes Catelyn, too.

Brienne seems quite exceptionally regarded on the subject of females using violence, when you contrast it against Arya. Especially Arya.

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

Brienne seems quite exceptionally regarded on the subject of females using violence, when you contrast it against Arya. Especially Arya.

So far, Brienne has only used violence against sick and depraved people, rather than noble characters such as Daeron, the insurance broker, Raff, the Tickler, or Eastern slave lords.

[Nevets]

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

The big difference in fandom attitudes towards male and female characters comes with attitudes towards the use of violence, in my opinion.

Women who use violence are frequently branded “mad,” “evil”, most obviously Dany, and Arya, but sometimes Catelyn, too.  Men who use violence are just carrying out a soldier’s duty, aside from the obvious psychopaths, like Ramsay or Ser Gregor.

The deaths that Dany and Catelyn are responsible for were mainly on their orders, not done in person.  And Catelyn's are mainly as Lady Stoneheart, who I think is not all there.

As for Arya, objections are more based on her age than her sex. Not many boys her age kill either.  Edric Dayne seemed quite shocked at the idea.  Sandor Clegane killed at 12, but he's hardly an example of good mental health.

In any event, violence is mainly done by men in the real world.  So when women do it in person, it's regarded as a bit unusual.  Same with this story.  That said, I'm skeptical of the idea that women are held to a tougher standard than men by fans, at least here.

[Daeron the Daring]

11 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't understand how it is double standards. Double standards would, to my knowledge, be giving Sansa a pass for doing X but not giving Joffrey the same.

No. Double standards is lifting someone from the burden of their acts at a certain age, meanwhile not doing the same with someone the same age. You don't let go of the 'crimes' of X just because X's are much better than Y's. Which they are, obviously, and Sansa's not even a comitter of crimes, in my opinion.

What I'm saying is that if one is entitled to the excuse of being naive due to age, so does the other. And that's not just Joffrey and Sansa, but every 12 year old.

Edited September 13, 2023 by Daeron the Daring

[SaffronLady]

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

noble characters such as Daeron, the insurance broker, Raff, the Tickler, or Eastern slave lords.

So a traitor, a normal bloke of unknown criminal record, a pair of motherfukers and literal slave owners. Nobility? Maybe. Noble? Not in sight.

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

No. Double standards is lifting someone from the burden of their acts at a certain age, meanwhile not doing the same with someone the same age. You don't let go of the 'crimes' of X just because X's are much better than Y's. Which they are, obviously, and Sansa's not even a comitter of crimes, in my opinion.

What I'm saying is that if one is entitled to the excuse of being naive due to age, so does the other. And that's not just Joffrey and Sansa, but every 12 year old.

It depends what the child is guilty of.  Sansa is guilty of being stuck up and stupid for most of the first book.  

Joffrey is guilty of tormenting people and animals for fun.  To a large extent, Joffrey is treated as an adult, within the book universe (people obey his orders to execute Ned Stark, or sexually assault Sansa, for example).  One can certainly make the argument that Joffrey is still very immature, which is a mitigating factor, in terms of his cruelty.  But, he's also old enough to know that hurting people for his own amusement is wrong.

If Joffrey simply takes bad decisions, then it's much easier to make the excuse of naivety, as with Sansa.

[Craving Peaches]

7 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

What I'm saying is that if one is entitled to the excuse of being naive due to age, so does the other. And that's not just Joffrey and Sansa, but every 12 year old.

You don't just excuse all things, regardless of what they are, for age though. It never works like that. Also, Joffrey is not having Sansa stripped or beaten and having peasants slaughtered because of his age, but because he is cruel. Stuff like him trying to pick a fight with Robb or drinking too much wine to impress Sansa is stuff he is doing because of his age. To be clear, I am not saying age is a blanket excuse for everything. If Sansa did the same as the cruel stuff Joffrey did I wouldn't say she should be excused just because of age.