Do you agree that Petyr Baelish/Littlefinger is Near Pure Evil?

[Lee-Sensei]

4 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think the person who comes closest to Cersei is Lysa. She had a 'harsh' father and had to marry a man she didn't like, and she 'only' kills her husband and tries to frame someone else after persuasion from the person she's madly in love with. We don't see Lysa going out of her way to murder babies. We also have no confirmation she passed off anyone else's child as Jon's (there was a theory that SR was Littlefinger's but I don't think there's that much to really back that up).

Yes. I did consider Lysa. She's the closest person to Cersei that I can think of off the top of my head, but I'm pretty sure she's literally insane. She's also had 5 miscarriages and 2 stillbirths. Her last child is frail and sickly. That doesn't make her good and I understand why people wouldn't find her sympathetic, but I still think that she's a better person than Cersei. As far as historical figures, I guess you could also compare Cersei to Ellyn Tarbeck, but she's done nothing that really puts her in Cersei's league.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[SeanF]

5 hours ago, boltons are sick said:

It doesn't justify everything she does (though it justifies some of her actions) but it is an excuse for her because you can't realistically expect someone who has lived through all of these things to act in any other way than what she is doing. It's not like any of us have experienced all these things. And, like I said, her murder of Robert and her actions against Ned are perfectly justifiable because otherwise she and her children would have been executed and Robert raped her, so I don't blame her at all for that.

Also, I don't really understand why you are so focused on "how bad Cersei is" when she is no worse than a lot of other caracters in Westeros who also do horrible things but are excused and loved by the fans for different reasons. Daenerys does equally horrible things like burning a woman alive for taking revenge against the person who slaughtered her town, tortured two kids in front of their father and crusified 163 random people without even asking if they are guilty or not but you make excuses for her and don't talk about how her circumstances don't justify her atrocities. Cersei has power over millions of people and yet, she just tortures and kills a relatively low number of people and only does it when she thinks she can save her children in that way which makes her tame in terms of Westerosi rulers like Aerys or Maegor, so it's not like she is extraordinarily worse than most other characters in the series she just has an unpleasant personality and that's why fans don't sympathize with her as much as they do with other characters even though she doesn't do worse things.

A certain level of ruthlessness will be displayed by anyone in power.

But, what need is there to murder infants and their mothers, or to have puppeteers vivisected, or to have dwarves slaughtered, or the blue bard tortured?

[SaffronLady]

Oh, hi again wiki guy, nice to see you around the block.

[Kal-L]

18 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Daenerys is acting because of her sense of morality and justice, Cersei is acting because she's power hungry.

This. I must admit I'm quite baffled by that new trend that is to depict Cersei as a poor desperate victim of abuse of an unwanted marriage to a vile beast. I never thought I'd have to say that but let me clear it for you, Cersei is no Naerys, nor is Jaime the Dragonknight.

"I have done my duty by you, and given you an heir. I beg you, let us live henceforth as brother and sister."

Poor Queen Naerys, a totally disinterested woman who didn't want the marriage with her brother and who after having accomplished her duty ask no beg to retire.

Nothing to do with the toxic parasite who wanted her cake and to eat it that was Cersei Lannister. Don't want to be married to Robert, but crave like a beggar for the crown he earned for himself and has nerve to feel entitled to it. The war of the 5 kings was full of deluded individuals but, Cersei managed to surpass them all in her madness.

Quote

"You were better, before you lost your hand. Ser Barristan, when he was young. Arthur Dayne was better, and Prince Rhaegar was a match for even him. Do not prate at me about how fierce the Flower is. He's just a boy." She was tired of Jaime balking her. No one had ever balked her lord father. When Tywin Lannister spoke, men obeyed. When Cersei spoke, they felt free to counsel her, to contradict her, even refuse her. It is all because I am a woman. Because I cannot fight them with a sword. They gave Robert more respect than they give me, and Robert was a witless sot. She would not suffer it, especially not from Jaime. I need to rid myself of him, and soon. Once upon a time she had dreamt that the two of them might rule the Seven Kingdoms side by side, but Jaime had become more of a hindrance than a help.

AFFC is full of hilarious quotes like this one which shows how utterly delusional she is about her entitlement over the Iron Throne. That woman is apparently unable to grasp her actual position or rather she can't fathom the fact that she and her family are the "outsider", the "in-laws". Robert is the one who earned the crown through his legendary feats at arms with the help of his friends. Tywin Lannister was just the greedy fifth wheel that was allowed in by Robert. Nobody bent the knees to the Lannisters, nobody will ever do. Except for Pycelle and his family, nobody eat into Tywin's disillusion of greatness.

The Targaryens who conquered and subdued everyone to become Kings didn't want them, Aerys rejected Tywin's daughter and had his heir marrying Elia. When his wife was barren and couldn't bear his children, Rhaegar chose Lyanna not Cersei. Cersei was never in his thoughts no matter how many times she's imagined herself getting plowed by her silvery prince.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Kal-L

[Lee-Sensei]

20 minutes ago, Kal-L said:

This. I must admit I'm quite baffled by that new trend that is to depict Cersei as a poor desperate victim of abuse of an unwanted marriage to a vile beast. I never thought I'd have to say that but let me clear it for you, Cersei is no Naerys, nor is Jaime the Dragonknight.

"I have done my duty by you, and given you an heir. I beg you, let us live henceforth as brother and sister."

Poor Queen Naerys, a totally disinterested woman who didn't want the marriage with her brother and who after having accomplished her duty ask no beg to retire.

Nothing to do with the toxic parasite who wanted her cake and to eat it that was Cersei Lannister. Don't want to be married to Robert, but crave like a beggar for the crown he earned for himself and has nerve to feel entitled to it. The war of the 5 kings was full of deluded individuals but, Cersei managed to surpass them all in her madness.

AFFC is full of hilarious quotes like this one which shows how utterly delusional she is about her entitlement over the Iron Throne. That woman is apparently unable to grasp her actual position or rather she can't fathom the fact that she and her family are the "outsider", the "in-laws". Robert is the one who earned the crown through his legendary feats at arms with the help of his friends. Tywin Lannister was just the greedy fifth wheel that was allowed in by Robert. Nobody bent the knees to the Lannisters, nobody will ever do. Except for Pycelle and his family, nobody eat into Tywin's disillusion of greatness.

The Targaryens who conquered and subdued everyone to become Kings didn't want them, Aerys rejected Tywin's daughter had his heir marrying Elia. When his wife was barren and couldn't bear his children, Rhaegar chose Lyanna not Cersei. Cersei was never in his thoughts no matter how many times she's imagined herself getting plowed by her silvery prince lol.

It's not a new trend tbh. 10 years ago I used to buy into Cersei as a poor victim which wasn't uncommon. Upon re-reading certain chapters, I found that this wasn't the case. I think the tv show has kind of warped the way some people see the character. In the show, she's a much more sympathetic character. In the books, she's worse than Joffrey imho.

I want to believe that she used to dream of ruling the kingdom with Jaime as a child, but Tywin was planning on marrying her off to Rhaegar (I'm not a fan of the guy, but he wouldn't have deserved that). Her "love" for Jaime is also incredibly selfish. He was in the kingsguard, because she used sex to manipulate him. She wanted him with her when she married Rhaegar and completely upended his life for around two decades. Yet in ASOS, she tried to get him to leave the kingsguard and go back to Casterly Rock, because Tywin was planning on separating her from Tommen. She's just so selfish.

The biggest mistake that Robert and Jon made was making Cersei a queen. If they'd kept the Lannisters at a distance, it would have prevented a lot of later problems. Ned was 100% right to distrust them and want to keep them out.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[John Suburbs]

On 9/24/2023 at 10:10 AM, boltons are sick said:

So, do you agree with the decision to list Littlefinger as Near Pure Evil or not?

Same as the other thread. No one is pure good or pure evil, near or otherwise.

Petyr is playing a machiavellian game of self-interest. And I think by the time we are finished we will know what he was up to and who he was plotting with.

[Kal-L]

24 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

It's not a new trend tbh. 10 years ago I used to buy into Cersei as a poor victim which wasn't uncommon. Upon re-reading certain chapters, I found that this wasn't the case. I think the tv show has kind of warped the way some people see the character. In the show, she's a much more sympathetic character. In the books, she's worse than Joffrey imho.

You're right about it not being new. However in my experience Cersei's POV were always used as means to bash Robert for his haters than a real argument to whitewash her character like I've seen recently.

[Lee-Sensei]

9 minutes ago, Kal-L said:

You're right about it not being new. However in my experience Cersei's POV were always used as means to bash Robert for his haters than a real argument to whitewash her character like I've seen recently.

A mix of both and there are certainly things to criticize Robert for, but Cersei is delusional. This one always cracks me up. Look at how she portrays her relationship with Sansa Stark.

Quote

"He dare not. The onion knight's head is the coin he'll need to buy his son's life." Cersei smiled. "The fat old fool may have been loyal to the Starks in his own way, but with the wolves of Winterfell extinguished-"

"Your Grace has forgotten the Lady Sansa," said Pycelle.

The queen bristled. "I most certainly have not forgotten that little she-wolf." She refused to say the girl's name. "I ought to have shown her to the black cells as the daughter of a traitor, but instead I made her part of mine own household. She shared my hearth and hall, played with my own children. I fed her, dressed her, tried to make her a little less ignorant about the world, and how did she repay me for my kindness? She helped murder my son. When we find the Imp, we will find the Lady Sansa too. She is not dead . . . but before I am done with her, I promise you, she will be singing to the Stranger, begging for his kiss."

An awkward silence followed. Have they all swallowed their tongues? Cersei thought, with irritation. It was enough to make her wonder why she bothered with a council.

That awkward silence always kills me. As if her councillors aren't sure if she's that delusional. She then goes on to talk about killing Jon Snow and how weak Catelyn was for not smothering him in his crib.

[Craving Peaches]

18 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Look at how she portrays her relationship with Sansa Stark

I have seen people claim that Cersei loved Sansa...

[Lee-Sensei]

47 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I have seen people claim that Cersei loved Sansa...

I don't think that's accurate even in the show.

[Darth Sidious]

No. Petyr is evil but he isn’t near pure evil. Pure evil are the Slavemasters and the Skinchangers. Euron qualifies as pure evil.