Was Doran smart or did he just wasted a oportunity?

[sweetsunray]

6 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I have repeatedly used examples that he was spoiled more than impoverished (with the difficult times being a contributing factor to his behavior, but not the main cause).

If your proposal is that he was treated as the golden child (which goes even beyond the general privilege of being born royal or noble), then I agree. That said: the golden child is usually the closest in personality to the disordered abusive parent.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

If your proposal is that he was treated as the golden child (which goes even beyond the general privilege of being born royal or noble), then I agree. That said: the golden child is usually the closest in personality to the disordered abusive parent.

We have reached an accord, lol. I agree.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

Y'all want to blame some "born evil" rhetoric, when the reality is Viserys is a mirror back onto the society where he was raised. He is if you take all the fancy dinners, and nice armor, and beautiful dresses, and talks of chivalry away, and are left with the ugly truth. If Viserys had victimized Doreah instead of Daenerys, and he'd done it mostly in secret...no one would even care about it. Tyrion Lannister did, and he is one of the most popular characters in the series. Was Tyrion born evil/insane too? 

[sifth]

2 hours ago, KingAerys_II said:

Viserys was Joffrey without power

Very true.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

11 minutes ago, sifth said:

Very true.

It's a shame that we never got to see the two of them interact with each other.

Edited October 11, 2023 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[sifth]

12 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

It's a shame that we never got to see the two of them interact with each other.

Part of me wishes he lived, just so Doran could meet the psychopath, he planned to have his daughter marry.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

27 minutes ago, sifth said:

Part of me wishes he lived, just so Doran could meet the psychopath, he planned to have his daughter marry.

Oh, I meant Viserys and Joffrey. Imagine putting those two in the same room.

[Odej]

9 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

No one is born evil or bad, Period.

Psychopaths are born psychopaths. It is true that only an absolute minority of them kill or become serial killers, but the absence of empathy and the ability to love (the core of what makes us human) is absent in all of them. I don't believe Viserys was a psychopath, but yes there are people who are born evil.

I'm curious though, if you really believe no one is born evil how do you explain a character like Tywin Lannister? What was so disturbing in the formation of his character to make it reasonable for him at the age of nineteen to exterminate thousands of people by drowning, and everything that came after?

Edited October 11, 2023 by Odej

[SaffronLady]

5 hours ago, Odej said:

disturbing in the formation of his character

Feeling the threat of his father's love of another woman threatening his own inheritance? Could reasonably make one unusually murderous even for a highborn.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

6 hours ago, Odej said:

Psychopaths are born psychopaths. It is true that only an absolute minority of them kill or become serial killers, but the absence of empathy and the ability to love (the core of what makes us human) is absent in all of them. I don't believe Viserys was a psychopath, but yes there are people who are born evil.

I'm curious though, if you really believe no one is born evil how do you explain a character like Tywin Lannister? What was so disturbing in the formation of his character to make it reasonable for him at the age of nineteen to exterminate thousands of people by drowning, and everything that came after?

Psychopaths are an extreme minority in the population, and what we call "psychopaths" I think are usually people with antisocial personality disorder (psychologists don't actually recognize the word psychopath as a real thing, nor sociopath). Didn't I just go off on how Viserys is a mirror onto his society. Yeah, Tywin, too. Like, you understand the Nazis, living in a relatively modern European state wasn't full of a bunch of sociopaths/psychopaths right? The reason that so many people did horrible things, is it is often society that creates the horrors we see, not individuals. They did studies on the worst war criminals of world war 2 and most of them didn't have any major personality disorder. They were "normal" people. Y'all are assuming "normal", non-psychotic, people can't do horrible things...but they can. Heck, people in this very forum defend many of Tywin's worst atrocities. I've seen them do it. And usually their defense if I call them out about it is to talk about Westerosi society, or mention how other people are also doing the bad things. Which is exactly how someone like Tywin probably thinks. And it's horrifying. It should be horrifying. The fact that Tywin isn't a psychopath is what makes me worry about the future of our world, and the rise of far right (hateful) rhetoric in the mainstream

Edited October 12, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[BlackLightning]

I find it interesting that this explosion of far right ideology is largely irreligious in nature.

But that's another topic.

Anyways, the real answer to both questions is yes. Doran is a smart guy but he did miss a huge opportunity. In fact, missed opportunities should be his middle name because that's all he does. He should've kept a much, much closer eye on Viserys and Daenerys. Especially after they were accepted into the household of Illyrio Mopatis, it should've been fair game.

You can't tell me that the Prince of Dorne (which has more in common with the Free Cities than the rest of the 7K) doesn't know that one of the richest men in the Free Cities is hosting the heirs of the fallen Targaryen dynasty indefinitely.

Just think what would've happened if Quentyn, Arianne, the Sand Snakes or -- better yet -- Oberyn had been made to present themselves to the Targaryens at Daenerys' wedding to Drogo...just like Jorah Mormont. It would've been so easy for that to have happened.

Doran waited way too long to send someone to the Targaryens. And it's not even a matter of caution. When all hell broke loose after Ned died, it would've been so easy to take action.

When Robert was still alive, Lysa and Stannis were preparing for war and Margaery was preparing to become the new queen.

There's literally no excuse. He's a perfect example of how you can be too smart for your own good.

He thinks too much

Edited October 12, 2023 by BlackLightning

[Arthur Peres]

2 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Just think what would've happened if Quentyn, Arianne, the Sand Snakes or -- better yet -- Oberyn had been made to present themselves to the Targaryens at Daenerys' wedding to Drogo...just like Jorah Mormont. It would've been so easy for that to have happened.

 

I don't think that it would go well. Jorah still reported to Robert at that point, if anyone from the Martells makes a public visit there it would be no diferent than  declaring open rebbelion. Even if Jorah fails to report, Viserys would be for sure dumb enough to make it public knowloge.

[Arthur Peres]

I don't see why Doran needs a Targeryan to go after Tywin... I don't even see why he would prefer Viserys over Stannis or Renly.

I don't buy that Doran hates the Baratheon and wants to end their dynasty. He cleary hates Robert for refusing him justice, but Doran goes out of his way to make it clear to the sand snakes that Myrcella and Tommen are not Tywin, I don't see why he would blame Renly that was 6 and trapped in Storm's End for the murder of his family.

Stannis and Renly are not guilty of Robert's wrong doing, just like Viserys and Daenerys are not guilty over Aerys and Rhaegar's actions. His family was wronged by the Targeryans just as much if not worse than by Robert, it was the dragons that public humiliated his sister and used her and her kids as hostages to drag them into a war they caused, and them when everything was lost kept her in the city to be sacked while left Daenerys and Viserys safe at Dragon Stone, the castle where Elia should have been.

Renly has a huge army, and two regions at his command while Viserys is a cast out without a single sword to command. The only point if supporting Viserys over Renly is if Doran was a legalist like Robb, which he isn't, or if he was just like Tywin and wanted his family to be part of the royal family which seems odd and out of character.

[KingAerys_II]

13 hours ago, sifth said:

Part of me wishes he lived, just so Doran could meet the psychopath, he planned to have his daughter marry.

Doran believed Viserys was Sauron 

[Odej]

12 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Y'all are assuming "normal", non-psychotic, people can't do horrible things...but they can.

I never assumed that. Many characters in asoiaf did really bad things. You mentioned Tyrion and there are others, even Daenerys it's far from been a saint. I don't think either of them is a psychopath.

I was talking specifically about Viserys' case. I don't believe he had a bad education or lived in a bad environment in his early years, despite he obviously had suffered. My point is, there are characters like Tywin, Cersei, Ramsay or Euron whose level of evil makes me believe that this was born with them. That is something innate. The different between Viserys and these other guys is that Viserys had no power. Otherwise, as another one had said, he would be a silver Joffrey.

Edited October 12, 2023 by Odej

[sweetsunray]

6 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

 (psychologists don't actually recognize the word psychopath as a real thing, nor sociopath).

That's not correct. They do recognize it, but it is not part of the DSMV, because the DSM is meant not just for diagnosis, but diasgnosis for disorders for which they can either hope to develop therapy or treatment, or have some form of therapy.

As there is no such hope for psychopathy, it is not part of the DSM. Instead they use ASPD which is defined slightly wider or broader than psychopathy. And so, ASPD diagnosis includes people who would not be diagnozed as psychopaths, and therefore are believed to be treatable.

Basically psychopathy isn't in the DSM for the same reason that homosexuality isn't in there. It doesn't mean they don't recognize the existence of it. It means "we can't treat this".

Edited October 12, 2023 by sweetsunray

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

5 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

That's not correct. They do recognize it, but it is not part of the DSMV, because the DSM is meant not just for diagnosis, but diasgnosis for disorders for which they can either hope to develop therapy or treatment, or have some form of therapy.

As there is no such hope for psychopathy, it is not part of the DSM. Instead they use ASPD which is defined slightly wider or broader than psychopathy. And so, ASPD diagnosis includes people who would not be diagnozed as psychopaths, and therefore are believed to be treatable.

Basically psychopathy isn't in the DSM for the same reason that homosexuality isn't in there. It doesn't mean they don't recognize the existence of it. It means "we can't treat this".

You are right. Well said. I should have said "they are not in agreeance of what it means" rather than that it doesn't exist. Essentially, it is hard to diagnose. Thank you for pointing out my mistake (I am not being sarcastic, I genuinely think I was wrong and didn't do a good enough job with that one). 

[sweetsunray]

Just now, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

You are right. Well said. I should have said "they are not in agreeance of what it means" rather than that it doesn't exist. Essentially, it is hard to diagnose. Thank you for pointing out my mistake (I am not being sarcastic, I genuinely think I was wrong and didn't do a good enough job with that one). 

Hare's test is the standard test to define it. Though it was created based on prison populations. It's been revised to improve it. But more research needs to be done to define it for psychopaths who do not have an arrest sheet a mile long, such a white border criminals.

The disagreement is in the margins, and it's not hard to diagnose. It simply requires specialty training.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

9 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Hare's test is the standard test to define it. Though it was created based on prison populations. It's been revised to improve it. But more research needs to be done to define it for psychopaths who do not have an arrest sheet a mile long, such a white border criminals.

The disagreement is in the margins, and it's not hard to diagnose. It simply requires specialty training.

"The current conceptions of psychopathy have been criticized for being poorly conceptualized, highly subjective, and encompassing a wide variety of underlying disorders." - This is the direct quote from what I was going off of. Is this incorrect? 

[sweetsunray]

14 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

"The current conceptions of psychopathy have been criticized for being poorly conceptualized, highly subjective, and encompassing a wide variety of underlying disorders." - This is the direct quote from what I was going off of. Is this incorrect? 

Please provide the source.