Theory: Aegon the Conqueror was impotent

[James Steller]

I’ve puzzled for a long time over what could possibly have been in Nymor’s letter which would ensure that Aegon not only agreed to peace, but would make sure that peace was kept. Any kind of leverage Nymor had would need to be perpetually available. For example, I don’t buy that it had anything to do with Rhaenys still being alive and Nymor promising to end her misery. Nothing would stop Aegon from avenging her after she died. It needed to be something more permanent.

case in point, his inability to have kids.

I could buy that Rhaenys, put to torture, would confess that Aegon’s sons weren’t his because of impotence. And that’s a secret which could forever be held over Aegon’s head. Then by the time his sons came to power, the peace had lasted long enough that the desire for war would have faded. Plus the seven kingdoms were busy with their own madness by  the time Aenys took charge.

 

[Alester Florent]

How can Aegon have been impotent? Look at the size of his dragon!

[Floki of the Ironborn]

I can buy that Aenys was a secret bastard. The fact that she basically named him after herself rather than Aegon is a subtle tell, but FAB basically said the quiet part out loud. 

But who's Maegor's father supposed to be under this theory?

[Lord Varys]

Sterile, not impotent. I'm sure Aegon could perform in bed. But his seed was useless.

18 hours ago, James Steller said:

I could buy that Rhaenys, put to torture, would confess that Aegon’s sons weren’t his because of impotence. And that’s a secret which could forever be held over Aegon’s head. Then by the time his sons came to power, the peace had lasted long enough that the desire for war would have faded. Plus the seven kingdoms were busy with their own madness by  the time Aenys took charge.

I don't think Aegon or anyone would care about such claims as the Martells or Ullers could torture Rhaenys into confessing everything they wanted her to say.

1 hour ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

But who's Maegor's father supposed to be under this theory?

The idea would be either some secret lover of Visenya's (Maegor's early master-at-arms, Gowen Corbray, springs to mind) or, more interesting, Maegor could be a male clone of Visenya's created by magic. It is quite odd that we hear Visenya was into magic yet there is no indication that she ever crafted any spells.

Her interest in poisons may have affected history when she poisoned her nephew King Aenys, but so far no cases of her doing sorcery are confirmed. The claim that she was into magic does kind of hangs in the air ... and is also quite odd for a female warrior. But I don't think it is there by accident or just for window-dressing.

Also, of course, George does has an eccentric female character create a male clone of herself in his novella 'Nightflyers'. Makes it very likely that the idea that Visenya may have done something similar is clearly not 'out there'.

It is quite obvious that Aenys is a dialed-up, male version of Rhaenys, just as Maegor is a dialed-up, male version of Visenya. Both inherited the more problematic, more extreme traits of their respective mothers. And neither Aenys nor Maegor have much (or anything) in common with Aegon the Conqueror.

[KingAerys_II]

The question is : are we sure the author knows the content of the letter? It could be a tool to give Dorne a plot armor.

You are right it's impossible it was a threat, Aenys and Aegon celebrated a feast for peace after 10 years, it has no sense for Aenys to meet the people that killed (or worse) his mother. 

Aegon impotent? Visenya was a voluptuous woman, there was a competition between the two sisters to take Aegon in their bed, so it's likely he was infertile 

[KingAerys_II]

1 hour ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

I can buy that Aenys was a secret bastard. The fact that she basically named him after herself rather than Aegon is a subtle tell, but FAB basically said the quiet part out loud. 

But who's Maegor's father supposed to be under this theory?

Some think he was Balerion thanks to blood magic, crossbreeding rituals the Valyrians used to do in the pit of Gogossos 

[James Steller]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Sterile, not impotent. I'm sure Aegon could perform in bed. But his seed was useless.

Yes, my mistake.

5 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

 

But who's Maegor's father supposed to be under this theory?

I figured that Visenya, as has been already said, used magic to create Maegor. It would explain why he is a psychopathic and violent figure who cannot himself reproduce children. He is an evil abomination made by unnatural means.

[KingAerys_II]

Aegon impotent used as a threat is impossible due to Maegor birth, no one could prove what abomination Visenya did with bloodmagic

[Angel Eyes]

I had a thread sometime ago asking why Aegon's kids were born relatively late and why there were only two, with Aenys being born in 7 AC when Aegon was 34 and Maegor when he was 39; in contrast Ned Stark had five legitimate children (six counting Jon as illegitimate) by a similar age or other Targaryens like Viserys II who sired all three of his kids by the time he was 16.

[KingAerys_II]

42 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I had a thread sometime ago asking why Aegon's kids were born relatively late and why there were only two, with Aenys being born in 7 AC when Aegon was 34 and Maegor when he was 39; in contrast Ned Stark had five legitimate children (six counting Jon as illegitimate) by a similar age or other Targaryens like Viserys II who sired all three of his kids by the time he was 16.

Probably he was sterile, Visenya was 41 when she gave birth to Maegor, she was considered barren, then suddenly she became pregnant

[The hairy bear]

I'd add that the idea that Aegon was infertile not only is the only reasonably consistent theory that fans have come up with to explain the contents of Nymor's letter, but also is suspected by many people in Westeros.

It seems clear to me, at least, that Glyndan thinks that's the case. The way he stresses how Aegon spent lots of nights with Rhaenys, that the boy didn't resemble Aegon at all, that there were rumors about his parenthood right after his birth, that Rhaenys surrounded herself with favourites,... it can't be by chance that Glyndayn writes that Aenys lacked Aegon's "size and strength", but had a great singing voice and was "charming and clever" (right after giving echo to the rumor that his real father was "a singer, a mummer or a mime".)

[KingAerys_II]

1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

I'd add that the idea that Aegon was infertile not only is the only reasonably consistent theory that fans have come up with to explain the contents of Nymor's letter, but also is suspected by many people in Westeros.

It seems clear to me, at least, that Glyndan thinks that's the case. The way he stresses how Aegon spent lots of nights with Rhaenys, that the boy didn't resemble Aegon at all, that there were rumors about his parenthood right after his birth, that Rhaenys surrounded herself with favourites,... it can't be by chance that Glyndayn writes that Aenys lacked Aegon's "size and strength", but had a great singing voice and was "charming and clever" (right after giving echo to the rumor that his real father was "a singer, a mummer or a mime".)

I don't think Nymor threatened Aegon, it's impossible to prove Aegon infertility after Maegor birth, the letter was something else, dornishmen were risking Sunspear and the shadow city. 

The feast of peace and the good relations with Deria make the threat explaination not plausible 

[KingAerys_II]

1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

I'd add that the idea that Aegon was infertile not only is the only reasonably consistent theory that fans have come up with to explain the contents of Nymor's letter, but also is suspected by many people in Westeros.

It seems clear to me, at least, that Glyndan thinks that's the case. The way he stresses how Aegon spent lots of nights with Rhaenys, that the boy didn't resemble Aegon at all, that there were rumors about his parenthood right after his birth, that Rhaenys surrounded herself with favourites,... it can't be by chance that Glyndayn writes that Aenys lacked Aegon's "size and strength", but had a great singing voice and was "charming and clever" (right after giving echo to the rumor that his real father was "a singer, a mummer or a mime".)

Aenys is a bastard fathered thanks to a singer with blue eyes, Alysanne had blue eyes and I don't think it was only because Alyssa mother had blue eyes. 

There is the theory about the letter that stated the Ullers kept the Queen prisoner and tortured her until Nymor and Deria rescued her, she was shipped to Dragonstone to receive the gift of mercy by Aegon himself, then it's probably she confessed things under torture, but things under torture could be considered lies and plots

[KingAerys_II]

On 10/28/2023 at 8:33 PM, Lord Varys said:

Sterile, not impotent. I'm sure Aegon could perform in bed. But his seed was useless.

I don't think Aegon or anyone would care about such claims as the Martells or Ullers could torture Rhaenys into confessing everything they wanted her to say.

The idea would be either some secret lover of Visenya's (Maegor's early master-at-arms, Gowen Corbray, springs to mind) or, more interesting, Maegor could be a male clone of Visenya's created by magic. It is quite odd that we hear Visenya was into magic yet there is no indication that she ever crafted any spells.

Her interest in poisons may have affected history when she poisoned her nephew King Aenys, but so far no cases of her doing sorcery are confirmed. The claim that she was into magic does kind of hangs in the air ... and is also quite odd for a female warrior. But I don't think it is there by accident or just for window-dressing.

Also, of course, George does has an eccentric female character create a male clone of herself in his novella 'Nightflyers'. Makes it very likely that the idea that Visenya may have done something similar is clearly not 'out there'.

It is quite obvious that Aenys is a dialed-up, male version of Rhaenys, just as Maegor is a dialed-up, male version of Visenya. Both inherited the more problematic, more extreme traits of their respective mothers. And neither Aenys nor Maegor have much (or anything) in common with Aegon the Conqueror.

I think it's more Meria tortured her in Sunspear, if Balerion turned sand into glass around Hellholt I don't think there was someone around anymore, if she was tortured, the Ullers did everything with the protection of Meria Martell. 

It's strange that the ransom strategy was very effective to murder the Ullers, it's likely Deria and Nymor hired assassins to free the Queen

[Lord Varys]

9 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

I'd add that the idea that Aegon was infertile not only is the only reasonably consistent theory that fans have come up with to explain the contents of Nymor's letter, but also is suspected by many people in Westeros.

Really don't think any of the Nymor letter theories there make sense. 'Hey, Aegon, we tortured your sister-wife into submission and now she calls you a cuckold like certain people at your own court, too.' Big deal. I can almost see why Aegon would clutch at such a letter so strongly that he would bleed...

9 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

It seems clear to me, at least, that Glyndan thinks that's the case. The way he stresses how Aegon spent lots of nights with Rhaenys, that the boy didn't resemble Aegon at all, that there were rumors about his parenthood right after his birth, that Rhaenys surrounded herself with favourites,... it can't be by chance that Glyndayn writes that Aenys lacked Aegon's "size and strength", but had a great singing voice and was "charming and clever" (right after giving echo to the rumor that his real father was "a singer, a mummer or a mime".)

I don't think Gyldayn believes anything like that. If he did, he would have made things more explicit. Aegon Targaryen is long dead and his 'sons' are, too, so their true parentage is only an academic question. Even more so now that Robert Baratheon sits the Iron Throne - which he does during the writing of the first volume, at least.

But you are quite right that there are hints in the writing that imply that Aegon is, especially, not the father of Aenys. But those are hints by George himself, not by the voice of Gyldayn. Gyldayn doesn't want us to connect Aenys' great singing voice to the rumor about singers, mummers, and mimes. That is George having fun. He put that there for us to connect the dots. Gyldayn did it unintentionally.

Ditto with Visenya being a sorceress. That is mentioned in a portrayal of her character, not in connection with Maegor's conception and birth, but Maegor's conception is the best (and I think only) event in Visenya's career where she may have worked some magic. Just as King Aenys' death may have been the event where she used the poisons she supposedly played with.

In-universe we can say that Sharra Arryn likely believed Aegon had trouble having children of his own as she asked him to name her eldest son Ronnel his heir should he take her as a third wife. She was giving Aegon a way to have a son without fathering one. As a man with two wives it is quite odd already that there are no pregnancies nor children by the time of the Conquest, much less later.

The rumors about Rhaenys we also have to take more seriously, I think, as Aegon and his sister-wives did not only live apart quite regularly (progresses, Aegon living between Dragonstone and KL, Dornish campaigns) but that the Aegonfort was effectively a castle with little to no chance of privacy. The place started with a wooden keep which was eventually replaced by a stone keep. While there would have been royal apartments somewhere in that complex, they wouldn't be as private as the royal apartments in Maegor's Holdfast or the citadel of Dragonstone are.

If Rhaenys wanted to spend time with her favorites or entertain them in the evening/at night (say, when Aegon was with Visenya on Dragonstone or in Dorne or on a progress or somewhere else in the Aegonfort) then it would have been very hard for her to do that secretly. And considering the status of Aegon's sister-wives as co-conquerors and co-rulers (and Rhaenys' as Aegon's favorite wife and sister) they could have gone on about (seemingly) having lovers more openly than other royal women. Even more so if both women were actually told to do this by Aegon or did it with his blessing because Aegon desperately needed an heir to continue the dynasty. Also, of course, the siblings could have had their own modus vivendi for Aegon's unusual polygamy. He was dependent on his sister-wives and their dragons, so if he could fuck them both, Rhaenys and/or Visenya could have certainly forced him to accept that they weren't completely faithful to him, either. Even before the lack of a child made it rather imperative that they try to give Aegon a son in an unusual way.

 

[KingAerys_II]

The threat in the letter has no sense, it doesn't explain why Aenys celebrated a feast in Sunspear with the people that supposedly tortured his mother and caused his mental breakdown. They celebrated the feast in Sunspear just after the birth of Rhaena, Aenys gave this name to his daughter in honor of Rhaenys. 

I am sure she died on Dragonstone, Aegon euthanized her as Daenerys did to Drogo

[The hairy bear]

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Really don't think any of the Nymor letter theories there make sense. 'Hey, Aegon, we tortured your sister-wife into submission and now she calls you a cuckold like certain people at your own court, too.'

The assumption that Nymor's letter threatened to reveal Aegon's sterility doesn't necessarily rely on Rhaenys having been tortured or even having survived Meraxes' fall. Nymor could have learned it through other means: a letter found in Rhaenys body, or perhaps the testimony of some of Rhaeny's favorites. (after her death, they may have been expelled from court. Nymor could have welcomed them in Sunspear to get information about the Targaryens).

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think Gyldayn believes anything like that. If he did, he would have made things more explicit. Aegon Targaryen is long dead and his 'sons' are, too, so their true parentage is only an academic question. Even more so now that Robert Baratheon sits the Iron Throne - which he does during the writing of the first volume, at least.

When George wrote the story of the Conquest, he was imagining that Gyldayn was living in the Targaryen era.

Even after the retcon, if Gyldayn writes at George's pace, he may have easily written the first chapters of Fire and Blood during the Mad King's reign.

Edited October 31, 2023 by The hairy bear

[KingAerys_II]

39 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

The assumption that Nymor's letter threatened to reveal Aegon's sterility doesn't necessarily rely on Rhaenys having been tortured or even having survived Meraxes' fall. Nymor could have learned it through other means: a letter found in Rhaenys body, or perhaps the testimony of some of Rhaeny's favorites. (after her death, they may have been expelled from court. Nymor could have welcomed them in Sunspear to get information about the Targaryens).

When George wrote the story of the Conquest, he was imagining that Gyldayn was living in the Targaryen era.

Even after the retcon, if Gyldayn writes at George's pace, he may have easily written the first chapters of Fire and Blood during the Mad King's reign.

It has no sense, a woman carrying a letter when she is attacking an hostile kingdom. 

I don't think threats hard to prove after Maegor birth are sufficient to stop a man who conquered a continent for the dream thing 

[KingAerys_II]

Imagine carrying a letter that could dishinerit the heir, what is the sense? 

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

The assumption that Nymor's letter threatened to reveal Aegon's sterility doesn't necessarily rely on Rhaenys having been tortured or even having survived Meraxes' fall. Nymor could have learned it through other means: a letter found in Rhaenys body, or perhaps the testimony of some of Rhaeny's favorites. (after her death, they may have been expelled from court. Nymor could have welcomed them in Sunspear to get information about the Targaryens).

I honestly don't think the Martells nor Aegon would have cared about things like that. Threatening to kill Aenys via Faceless Men, sure, that would have had some teeth. Spreading rumors and waving allegedly letters not so much. Who would judge if some letter, even one written in Rhaenys' hand, was genuine or containing true statements? The public opinion of Westeros?

Also - who would care about rumors spread by singers? Such rumors already existed, they didn't stop Aenys from becoming king. They weren't even enough for Visenya to push Aenys aside to make Maegor king in his stead.

4 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

When George wrote the story of the Conquest, he was imagining that Gyldayn was living in the Targaryen era.

No, he wasn't. That is why the earliest manuscript of the reign of Aegon already mentions the number of all Targaryen kings as well as that they were overthrown. It seems the Gyldayn as a Summerhall maester was a later or parallel idea by Ran/Linda that never played a role for George's sidebar writing when he did that. And that is the basis for FaB, not anything they talked about in the editing process for TWoIaF - as George shows by finishing and expanding on the 'sidebar manuscript' when he prepared FaB for publication.

4 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Even after the retcon, if Gyldayn writes at George's pace, he may have easily written the first chapters of Fire and Blood during the Mad King's reign.

He didn't, we know that.