Israel - Hamas war VIII

[kissdbyfire]

 

21 minutes ago, karaddin said:

I saw a video circulating last night claimed to be Al-Azhar University getting absolutely levelled by IDF bombs, but I haven't seen any Western media outlets reporting on it. I did see that there was a University bombed 3 weeks ago, but what little I watched of that looked like it was a different university but perhaps it's just a different video from the opposite angle. Does anyone know if that was actually a separate uni being destroyed or if it's the same one with the footage recycled?

From what I’ve seen it’s two different unis. The Islamic University of Gaza was bombed on October 11, and the Al-Azhar University on November 1st. 

[Kalbear]

18 minutes ago, Altherion said:

Controlling access to a territory (which Israel does only to a limited extent or Hamas would not have so many rockets and other weapons) is not at all the same as an occupation.

The UN and many human rights organizations disagree. 

And the presence of smuggled in weapons does not imply lack of control. People in US prisons frequently have weapons, drugs, and all sorts of other illicit material, but I don't think anyone would claim they are not prisoners.

Again it seems very semantical and weirdly focused on the legal responsibility which does not really matter, as there is no party that will hold Israel accountable for it. I like the framing I used before - Israel has the power here, and therefore they have the choice on how to use it as well as the responsibility for its consequences.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

36 minutes ago, karaddin said:

The problem with trying to make lasting peace in scenarios like this is that it only takes a relatively small number of bad actors to derail attempts to improve the situation. In this respect the attack on Oct 7 is a bit of an outlier in terms of having larger numbers involved than would typically be the case, although I guess I wouldn't say that things were on a particularly improving trajectory beforehand for anything to be "derailed". Even counting all of Hamas that's still only 1-2% of the population though, and they've sure gone and fucked things up.

Absolutely, which is why Hamas and Israeli's worst right wingers need to exit stage left asap if there's hope for things to be set back on track. 

 

[Altherion]

3 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Yes, the few college kids and professors, youtubers  who actually simped for hamas were bad, I hate them to but please stop exaggerating their impact prominence or impact.

It's not just a few college kids, professors and youtubers. Even the in the immediate wake of the Hamas attacks (i.e. on October 19th), 16% of American voters side with Hamas over Israel (see page 42 of this survey). That is, when the question was, "In general in this conflict do you side more with Israel or Hamas?", 16% of the population (including 48% of 18-24 year olds) answered Hamas. Notice it's not a generic question about Palestinians; this is about 1 in 6 people who support an organization that the US government designates as terrorist and which clearly has no problem murdering civilians.

[GrimTuesday]

35 minutes ago, Altherion said:

It's not just a few college kids, professors and youtubers. Even the in the immediate wake of the Hamas attacks (i.e. on October 19th), 16% of American voters side with Hamas over Israel (see page 42 of this survey). That is, when the question was, "In general in this conflict do you side more with Israel or Hamas?", 16% of the population (including 48% of 18-24 year olds) answered Hamas. Notice it's not a generic question about Palestinians; this is about 1 in 6 people who support an organization that the US government designates as terrorist and which clearly has no problem murdering civilians.

This is so fucking pathetic. That is a bullshit poll because it is only setting it up as the two answers being Israel and Hamas. Basically, you're forcing people to answer that you either support Israel, who at that point had already killed thousands of Palestinians in the bombardment that commenced almost immediately after October 7th or Hamas. That is an incredibly loaded question that I would have refused to answer but completely understand why someone would say Hamas.

When people in the immediate aftermath of the Hamas attacks were celebrating, it was wrong and I certainly wasn't excited at the prospect of that operation because I knew what was coming no matter how successful it was. That said, when you watch a people get brutalized and humiliated for decades, there is something exhilarating in seeing them finally get a chance to strike back in a meaningful way outside of just fruitlessly lobbing rockets in the direction of their oppressors. Doesn't mean it is right, but that is a very human reaction. It is also worth noting that much of the celebrations took place prior to the exact extent and brutality of the Hamas attack became clear, that shit went away really quick once we got details abut what was happening in the kibbutzim.

Edited November 5, 2023 by GrimTuesday

[Kalbear]

Yeah, it's real shocking that some Americans would want to have jews die.

I think y'all might be a bit confused about why those people picked hamas, and what political alignment they have.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Politics makes strange bedfellows. That said, the gap between the overall sample and young people is a bit alarming. 

[GrimTuesday]

23 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Yeah, it's real shocking that some Americans would want to have jews die.

I think y'all might be a bit confused about why those people picked hamas, and what political alignment they have.

Obviously there are plenty of Nazi shitlords who want to see the murder of Jews, but in the instance of that specific poll, your only options are Israel, which at the time of the poll had already been bombing the shit out of Gaza, and Hamas, which is being presented as the only option to express support for the Palestinian people who have been subjected to Israel's apartheid state for 75 years. 

18 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Politics makes strange bedfellows. That said, the gap between the overall sample and young people is a bit alarming. 

I'm sure if you rephrased it from Hamas to Palestinians you would be even more alarmed. Young people are being exposed the realities of life as a Palestinian and Israel's propaganda is losing it's potency as a result.

Edited November 5, 2023 by GrimTuesday

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

31 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

I'm sure if you rephrased it from Hamas to Palestinians you would be even more alarmed. Young people are being exposed the realities of life as a Palestinian and Israel's propaganda is losing it's potency as a result.

Swing and a miss, plus you're massively overlooking how ignorant younger folks are about just the Holocaust itself, let alone about anti-Semitism in general. I'd get asked the weirdest questions about Jews when I was in HS and college and the polling indicates it's gotten worse in the last decade.

[GrimTuesday]

5 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Swing and a miss, plus you're massively overlooking how ignorant younger folks are about just the Holocaust itself, let alone about anti-Semitism in general. I'd get asked the weirdest questions about Jews when I was in HS and college and the polling indicates it's gotten worse in the last decade.

You say that as if knowledge of the holocaust in any way should inform the reactions to Israel's apartheid state.

[House Balstroko]

There was another major Pro-Palestinian protest in Melbourne, Australia. After the main event had ended people started going their own way, I saw 2 girls with By The River to the Sea posters. I was tempted to confront them and ask them to voluntarily dispose of those posters, otherwise I’d involve the police. Then I decided to just move along. 
 

It’s one thing to show solidarity with the Palestinian cause, but this is a direct attack against the existence of the state of Israel. That is not acceptable. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

4 hours ago, Altherion said:

It's not just a few college kids, professors and youtubers. Even the in the immediate wake of the Hamas attacks (i.e. on October 19th), 16% of American voters side with Hamas over Israel (see page 42 of this survey). That is, when the question was, "In general in this conflict do you side more with Israel or Hamas?", 16% of the population (including 48% of 18-24 year olds) answered Hamas.

Hmm this really feels like a “Are you with the terrorists and saddam Hussian or do you stand with America.” After America  conquers Iraq and Afghanistan type of poll.
 

4 hours ago, Altherion said:

Notice it's not a generic question about Palestinians; this is about 1 in 6 people who support an organization that the US government designates as terrorist and which clearly has no problem murdering civilians.

Yeah it’s kinda odd that it’s a generic question concerning Israel and highly specific when it’s a Palestinian group.

I think maybe a lot of the answers involved here are due to things like depriving millions of water and electricity and the indiscriminate bombing campaign instead of just “They hate Jews!” And/or “They want civilians to die” some will fall into that category as would some of the people who said they support Israel do so because they like bombed ambulances and ethnic cleansings.

Edited November 5, 2023 by Varysblackfyre321

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Swing and a miss

What’s the swing and a miss?

I would also add Israel has been really ineffective at out to reaching young people in comparison to other older demographics you know like having an AI generated Voldemort cry and mocking Greta Thunberg for having a cute squid that helps autistic people. 
 

edit: in part because of the far right’s takeover and in part   assuming young people would naturally grow to support Israel in the same fashion as their parents.

 

Edited November 5, 2023 by Varysblackfyre321

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, House Balstroko said:

saw 2 girls with By The River to the Sea posters. I

It may not be your moral responsibility specifically but for anyone in general best to clamp down on that shit when you see it.

Tolerance to these types is active encouragement.

Edited November 5, 2023 by Varysblackfyre321

[GrimTuesday]

1 hour ago, House Balstroko said:

There was another major Pro-Palestinian protest in Melbourne, Australia. After the main event had ended people started going their own way, I saw 2 girls with By The River to the Sea posters. I was tempted to confront them and ask them to voluntarily dispose of those posters, otherwise I’d involve the police. Then I decided to just move along. 
 

It’s one thing to show solidarity with the Palestinian cause, but this is a direct attack against the existence of the state of Israel. That is not acceptable. 

Alright, I'm sick of this bullshit, "From the River to the Sea" is not hate speech and it is not inherently a Hamas slogan. It was created as a slogan by the PLO to express a yearning for freedom that the Palestinians might live between the river and the sea, which they did prior to the creation of the state of Israel. It is also a call for a single state, and it has genocidal implications if you assume that the only way that a Palestinian state can exist is through the genocide of the Jews, which despite how people paint Hamas as being the singular representation of the Palestinian struggle (As Bibi and the Israeli government sought to do), is not the aim expressed by most Palestinians.

Of course, this assumption of genocide is the same justification that was used in South Africa, where no such thing happened, and in the American south, where southerners were convinced that in the event the slaves were freed, they would enact vengeance upon them. In both cases, what happened was people were freed, and they moved on and tried to live their lives the best they could. That said, there will need to be some some level of reconciliation where leaders on both sides are made to answer for their crimes.

 

[Heartofice]

2 hours ago, House Balstroko said:

It’s one thing to show solidarity with the Palestinian cause, but this is a direct attack against the existence of the state of Israel. That is not acceptable. 

I get the sense that a lot of pro Palestinian  protesters genuinely do not believe in the existence of a Jewish state. 

Listening a podcast with Palestinian campaigner Yousef Munayyer the other day, his position was that the only solution is a single state, one that will inevitably have a Muslim majority and a Jewish minority.

When the point was raised that this would likely lead to discrimination and potential genocide of the Jewish he became outraged, stating the only reason there is anti Jewish sentiment is to do with conditions in Gaza.

Personally I found him incredibly naive, offensively so. There is this idea that Jews and Muslims lived together peacefully under the Ottomans so it’s possible, ignoring the idea of course that Jews and Christians were second class citizens and were tolerated mainly due to them paying the special protection tax, the Jizya, rather than any sort of ethical fairness. Also ignoring the enormous expulsion of Jews from the Middle East post-1948, how many Jews live there now?

If someone is singing ‘river to the sea’ it’s implicit that they don’t believe in a Jewish state, and while many might have this naive view of living in harmony, there are many who genuinely want the Jews expelled from the region ( maybe due to anti semitism , maybe due to some western framing that Jews are white colonisers, ignoring all the Middle Eastern non whilte Jews) 
 

 

 

Edited November 5, 2023 by Heartofice

[Varysblackfyre321]

5 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Listening a podcast with Palestinian campaigner Yousef Munayyer the other day, his position was that the only solution is a single state, one that will inevitably have a Muslim majority and a Jewish minority.

When the point was raised that this would likely lead to discrimination and potential genocide of the Jewish he became outraged, stating the only reason there is anti Jewish sentiment is to do with conditions in Gaza.

Personally I found him incredibly naive, offensively so. There is this idea that Jews and Muslims lived together peacefully under the Ottomans so it’s possible, ignoring the idea of course that Jews and Christians were second class citizens and were tolerated mainly due to them paying the special protection tax, the Jizya, rather than any sort of ethical fairness. Also ignoring the enormous expulsion of Jews from the Middle East post-1948, how many Jews live there now?

Save your offense please.
 

Anyway, any solutions concerning the Palestinians that aren’t just Aparteid and ethnic cleansing? A two state solution looks to be increasingly unlikely as Israel keeps on expanding. 

Edited November 5, 2023 by Varysblackfyre321

[Craving Peaches]

6 hours ago, Altherion said:

Controlling access to a territory (which Israel does only to a limited extent or Hamas would not have so many rockets and other weapons) is not at all the same as an occupation.

UN says otherwise.

[Varysblackfyre321]

4 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

UN says otherwise.

I hope for the day the US steps aside and stops shielding Israel from UN condemnation and I hope that day comes soon.

[Craving Peaches]

18 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I hope for the day the US steps aside and stops shielding Israel from UN condemnation and I hope that day comes soon.

The blatant and consistent violations of international law over should come to an end. I mean, I know to a certain extent everyone does and so on, but... The Israeli ambassador even called for people to defend the UN because the UN said what they were doing in Gaza wasn't right.

What I don't understand, is that when there was Apartheid in South Africa, countries (eventually) did something about it with boycotts and economic sanctions. Yet now there is Apartheid in the territories Israel is illegally occupying (according to UN and multiple Human Rights groups), and yet no one (or few people , especially on a national scale) are taking the kind of action they took to try and deal with the issue in South Africa. 

Also, and I ask as a genuine question, I am not sure why some Americans treat Israel as such a great 'friend'* after the Lavon Affair (the surviving operatives were actually rewarded by the state for their attempt to kill civilians and try and blame Egypt!) or the sinking of the USS Liberty. I also don't understand why one would want to be friends with a country with such blatant human rights and international law violations. It doesn't seem like it would be very beneficial for a good diplomatic image, and it makes it easy to be accused of hypocrisy and double standards by other countries. Can someone explain?

*Is it just because of political reasons, i.e. need someone in the Middle East?