Kalbear Posted November 13, 2023 Share Posted November 13, 2023 1 hour ago, Conflicting Thought said: https://portside.org/2020-01-18/hindu-nationalists-are-transforming-india-israel-style-ethnostate ethnostates, such a good idea, never a bad thing resulted from an ethnostate. im sure that if there is a jewish and palestinan/arab ethnostates all will be resolved and nothing bad will come of it. i cant fucking belive people are defending ethnostates right now. crazy shit Ya know what? Fine. I'll say it another way. 7 million people currently live in the same area and have a very similar culture, language, and viewpoint of religion. They want to live in a democratically governed area that has representation, rule of law, tolerance for a fair amount of differences (not as many as I'd like, but...) and share values based at least partially on a shared trauma that they or their families have experienced. They have also expressed a willingness to separate out those who don't share those values and make those people significantly lesser in rights, powers, and justice. 3 million people live in a similar area and have a very similar culture, language, and viewpoint of religion. They want to live in a religious government with specific rules around what religion is allowed, what laws can and cannot be passed, who can be elected and who can live there. They are not particularly tolerant or desiring to be tolerant. They also share values based at least partially on a shared trauma that they or their families have experienced. They also have expressed a willingness to separate out those who don't share those values, and either exile them or kill them. My take is that those two groups should likely not be meshed together. Because those two groups have very antithetical viewpoints and goals. If they were to be meshed together there is only one real outcome - one of those groups loses out to the other in terms of their values and stated goals. Being tolerant requires that you are intolerant of views that would destroy a society that allows tolerance - so either the first group's goals and viewpoints get erased, or the second group's goals and viewpoints get erased. My take is that instead of getting rid of one of those groups at some point, we...should not do that. If you want to call that supporting an ethnostate, that's fine by me; I don't really care. I would ESPECIALLY say that we should not do that because both of these groups do not want that. Either you get people from either group that would like to completely wipe out the other group - either slowly or quickly - and solve that problem that way, or you get people that would like both groups to live separate from each other. I don't know that two countries would solve everything. Nothing solves everything. But I can recognize that one solution is significantly worse in every way, starting with it being not what those people actually want. That said, if you want a 1-state solution keep in mind that this is also what Netanyahu wants - he wants a 1-state solution with Israel as the one state, Hebrew as the one language, and Judaism as the primary religion. He wants Palestinians in apartheid and with very little rights, and either eventually forcing out those Palestinians via continued pressure or simply killing them. That's not good! And that's probably one of the actual best outcomes that is feasible if you want a 1-state solution. Fragile Bird 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted November 13, 2023 Share Posted November 13, 2023 3 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: Indeed. Will @TrueMetis acknowledge that? Is there some board performance art contest where the goal is to intentionally misinterpret someone's argument in the worst possible way? WTF is going on here The Mance, Crixus, kissdbyfire and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luzifer's right hand Posted November 13, 2023 Share Posted November 13, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, Rippounet said: I'd honestly be at a loss to define what a Jew is supposed to be, so I can only conclude that people hate an idea of what a Jew is. Is that a trick question? Take a look at the Nuremberg Laws. The people who tried to kill Jews the hardest had very clear definitions. Behaviour and religions was mostly irrelevant in the end except when it came to edge cases with "mixed" blood. I guess nowadays it would mainly be DNA based though for people who don't follow the religion. Edited November 13, 2023 by Luzifer's right hand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted November 13, 2023 Share Posted November 13, 2023 (edited) 6 hours ago, LynnS said: I didn't make anybody do anything. There is no reason for me to disbelieve Warren. He said he thought he could view it and maintain a certain level of calm. But he came out and started weeping and couldn't stop. That would be me. I've given you a source which seemed to be your initial complaint. You haven't provided anything reliable to counter it. Just apparently that didn't happen. Sorry, I'm not your google. That's what I'm supposed to say, right? But I'm your huckleberry. In this case, the Israeli government says it can't corroborate those claims. Here's Warren on that, by the way, for other folks who don't want to listen to a fucking podcast for an hour to get some basic info: https://warrenkinsella.com/2023/11/my-latest-when-there-is-no-one-left-to-interview/ His words say that they witnessed precisely one dead baby. It was riddled with bullets. That's horrible. It is not several babies. None of that indicates burnings. Again, this is the guy you chose to showcase. Not me. The reports of burning alive were made by many people right after - including Netanyahu spokespeople - who then were shown to be inaccurate. This is really important to point out because it indicates that Netanyahu is a fucking liar, and continued to lie about things several days after the fact. But hey, because I'm a good guy I'll link a firsthand report that says that there were burnings! They weren't babies, they were kids, but there ya go! What happened was horrible by itself. You don't need to make it bigger, nor do you need to amplify liars. Hamas gleefully murdered over a thousand completely innocent people, and did so with absolute brutality and joy at the chance to do that murder. As @Heartofice pointed out the specific details don't really matter per se at that point except that it isn't truthful. The most important details, to me, are that innocent people were killed because of who they were, and they were killed not to achieve any goal other than to make others happy in the amount of damage and pain that they could cause. Beyond that, the point should be to make sure that the actual truth gets out. Because here's the thing as a Jew - and this @Tywin et al. is one of the things I can say with real identity - if you embellish even a little bit, if you get a single fact wrong about atrocities done to you, people will take those things and use them as a fucking cudgel to show how if that is wrong, then ALL of the things are wrong. They will use that to call question on this, and then they'll use it to call question on the Holocaust. And you don't need to do that. You don't need to spread the false information that makes it easier for enemies of Jews to spread lies about what happened to Jews when what happened was horrible enough. You don't need to spread that disinformation so that Israelis in power can use it as an excuse to kill more Palestinian kids, and other people can use it as a justification not to put too much pressure on those Israelis to tone it down. Edited November 13, 2023 by Kalbear The Mance, AncalagonTheBlack and Zorral 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luzifer's right hand Posted November 13, 2023 Share Posted November 13, 2023 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Kalbear said: You don't need to make it bigger, nor do you need to amplify liars. Hamas gleefully murdered over a thousand completely innocent people, and did so with absolute brutality and joy at the chance to do that murder. As @Heartofice pointed out the specific details don't really matter per se at that point except that it isn't truthful. The most important details, to me, are that innocent people were killed because of who they were, and they were killed not to achieve any goal other than to make others happy in the amount of damage and pain that they could cause. Beyond that, the point should be to make sure that the actual truth gets out. That is one thing we know about the attacks on the 7th that is untrue though. Unless you mean "not a member of Hamas or Palestinian from Gaza" with "who they were". They killed Thais, Arabs, Filipinos, Chinese, Nepalis among others. Edited November 13, 2023 by Luzifer's right hand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted November 13, 2023 Share Posted November 13, 2023 1 minute ago, Luzifer's right hand said: That is one thing we know about the attacks on the 7th that is untrue though. Unless you mean "not a member of Hamas or Palestinian from Gaza" with "who they were". They killed Thais, Arabs, Filipinos, Chinese, Nepalis among others. I guess that's fair. I'm not sure that we saw the same level of glee that we saw in the rave killing that we saw reported with the kibbutzes, but I don't really care to argue it. They killed anyone they could, all so they could show anyone in Israel that they should be punished for being in Israel, and appeared to take joy in especially killing Israeli citizens. Luzifer's right hand 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luzifer's right hand Posted November 13, 2023 Share Posted November 13, 2023 Just now, Kalbear said: I guess that's fair. I'm not sure that we saw the same level of glee that we saw in the rave killing that we saw reported with the kibbutzes, but I don't really care to argue it. They killed anyone they could, all so they could show anyone in Israel that they should be punished for being in Israel, and appeared to take joy in especially killing Israeli citizens. You can find at least one killing of a Thai online if you are interested and make your own judgment although I would not recommend it and there have been reports the they were especially enthusiastic about harming victims from Southeast Asia. But it is pretty clear that most people don't give a shit about these victims because it harms that narrative of oppressed people vs. oppressors. JoannaL, Zorral, Kalbear and 2 others 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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