Israel and Palestine- The permanent mess

[Daeron the Daring]

4 hours ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

It really isn't, especially if your focus is only on one side of a long standing fucked up situation. I've gone out of my way to discuss how both sides have been awful for decades and how it's driven each to even worse places, but if someone who knew nothing about the topic read these threads they'd come away thinking only Israel is in the wrong. A throwaway sentence is not enough to discuss Hamas. 

Well, even if the purpose of these threads was to enlight anybody with any level of cluelessness about the whole situation, it would still make quite a fair case, because people have been constantly complaining about not condemning Hamas enough/enough times. I mean, fair enough, if somebody entirely clueless, with no history in the subject, was to wander into this X'th thread discussing all this, he would probably get things wrong, but I would also raise other questions before making it our fault.

But that's not the case anyway. These are civil discussions. If you feel the need to point it out, do it, make a throwaway post every page about it, you're more or less doing it anyway.

Or, if you find that unfulfilling, elaborate regularly on why Hamas is bad, so that we can express our agreement over the subject.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

2 hours ago, TheKitttenGuard said:

It is not more or less than anything than Eretz Y'israel. It was pointed out Likud meant did same phrasing back in the '70s in platforms.

I heard a lot of Israeli 'Chai at rallies. That is going back to Kahane 'Chai and that very extremist motto is now more mainstream and being used in a affirmation.

That makes it okay for Hamas to advocate for the death or expulsion of all Jews in Israel/Palestine?

I think Hamas and Likud both suck.

[Zorral]

14 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Huh?  That reply wasn't directed at you. I was defending what you had said, that Likud's charter was older than Hamas, and showing that Lord Tywin was wrong when he said Likud was established much later.

That was in response to Chatwyn, not you.

 Stupid quote function.

[kissdbyfire]

14 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

These entire threads have been patronizing.

There are constant disagreements, but I would not equate that to people being patronising b/c I don't recall anyone being actually patronising despite their disagreements. 

14 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

I'm a reformed Jew, I grew up in the most liberal setting possibly, one that is critical of a lot of what Israel has done, but to hear people talk like they understand the conflict when they have no connection to it is the literal definition of patronizing and gaslighting. 

Frankly I'm done. Mex and Fez were wise to check out earlier.

 

And no, commenting, however critically, on an issue you have no personal connection to most definitely isn't the "literal definition of patronising and gaslighting". 

Edited January 14 by kissdbyfire

[fionwe1987]

3 minutes ago, Zorral said:

That was in response to Chatwyn, not you.

 Stupid quote function.

Ahh. That makes more sense, lol. 

[Zorral]

8 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

Hamas began as a political movement in the late 60's to early 70's. It became a party in the 80's.

My my my you keep moving the chronological posts here -- which is, of course your method, as we've seen in the US Politics thread for screens and screens, with you and DMC.

But, ok then, when did Netanyahu start pouring money into Hamas, making it more powerful than, say, the PLO, etc.?

 

[kissdbyfire]

4 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I think Hamas and Likud both suck.

So so very hard.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 hour ago, Conflicting Thought said:

By any means necessary? Just in the way that hamas must be removed by any means?

How many Jews are there in the Arab-Muslim States surrounding Israel?  I haven’t seen that question answered yet.

And yes the Jewish settlers should be removed by force if necessary from the West Bank by the IDF.  

The distinction you seem to miss is that Hamas wants to kill or expel all Jews from Israel/Palestine.  That’s very different from saying force is appropriate to remove Jewish settlers from West Bank territories.

[TheKitttenGuard]

7 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

That makes it okay for Hamas to advocate for the death or expulsion of all Jews in Israel/Palestine?

I think Hamas and Likud both suck.

I am responding that people who state "River to the Sea Palestine will free" are basicallt advocate to murder all jews which is very much has been stated.

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

The distinction you seem to miss is that Hamas wants to kill or expel all Jews from Israel/Palestine.  

Like Netanyahu and Ben-Gvir and Smotrich and others want to do w/ the non-militant Palestinians.

One thing I believe most here can agree on is that this is a very fucked up situation, w/ many nasty arseholes on both sides. Hope for a better future for all involved rests w/ normal and racional people on both sides, who just want to live free and safe. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

5 minutes ago, TheKitttenGuard said:

I am responding that people who state "River to the Sea Palestine will free" are basicallt advocate to murder all jews which is very much has been stated.

And that slogan is wrong offered by Israelis or Palestinians.

That is my point.

[Jace, Extat]

What is, zero? Your Honor. Zero Jews?

 

Nicht. Da ist nitchte die juden der auf Nahe Osten. Nicht draußen Israel.

[TheKitttenGuard]

53 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

These entire threads have been patronizing. I'm a reformed Jew, I grew up in the most liberal setting possibly, one that is critical of a lot of what Israel has done, but to hear people talk like they understand the conflict when they have no connection to it is the literal definition of patronizing and gaslighting. 

I was born and raised Reform Jew. Several members of my family been active in Zionist and U.S/Israel organizations. I went to Sunday school where Zionist history was taught.

I have a great problem with how stolen the Peace Process, one of the chief architecture of this has been P.M on several occassion, and then being told my thoughts are too blame or I have to really rethink myself my position. If you never thought October 7 was a very probable or possible event based on Israel policies than whatever Israel was doing must not of been that bad.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

11 minutes ago, Jace, Extat said:

What is, zero? Your Honor. Zero Jews?

 

Nicht. Da ist nitchte die juden der auf Nahe Osten. Nicht draußen Israel.

Precisely.

[Zorral]

@TheKitttenGuard

Which is the case of so many of our friends, inside and out of Israel.

And of course, many inside of Israel, who don't happen to be personal friends, but are paying a huge price for not approving:

‘It is a time of witch hunts in Israel’: teacher held in solitary confinement for posting concern about Gaza deaths
Meir Baruchin, who was fired and jailed for criticising the military, says that many who agree with him are afraid to go public

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/13/it-is-a-time-of-witch-hunts-in-israel-teacher-held-in-solitary-confinement-for-posting-concern-about-gaza-deaths

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

5 minutes ago, Zorral said:

@TheKitttenGuard

Which is the case of so many of our friends, inside and out of Israel.

And of course, many inside of Israel, who don't happen to be personal friends, but are paying a huge price for not approving:

‘It is a time of witch hunts in Israel’: teacher held in solitary confinement for posting concern about Gaza deaths
Meir Baruchin, who was fired and jailed for criticising the military, says that many who agree with him are afraid to go public

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/13/it-is-a-time-of-witch-hunts-in-israel-teacher-held-in-solitary-confinement-for-posting-concern-about-gaza-deaths

 

Likud is dangerous.  Can they be voted out of power?  Is that a real political possibility in Israel?

[TheKitttenGuard]

24 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

And that slogan is wrong offered by Israelis or Palestinians.

That is my point.

I see Boisterous and Hyperbolic sloganeering is a universial issue so I did not see your specific point.

Personally, I think it is best to avoid that type of sloganeering.  River to the Sea has been singled out as something particularly wrong and I do not agree with that.

[Zorral]

1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

 Can they be voted out of power?

Did you notice how much in the news all over the world, particularly in the US and the UK BEFORE Oct. 7 covered what was going on with him and elections and the courts?

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/netanyahus-judicial-overhaul-faces-first-legal-challenge-in-israeli-supreme-court

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2024-01-01/ty-article-opinion/.premium/netanyahus-coup-hasnt-disappeared-since-oct-7-it-hides-behind-a-call-for-unity/0000018c-c12c-d3e0-abac-d9ad52090000

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2024/01/22/benjamin-netanyahu-israel-gaza-hamas-war-hostages

He was to be indicted for massive corruption and bribery etc., massive protests all over Israel against him and the party for months and months -- also about his judicial coup on the courts that would try him -- and then, ah ha! Oct. 7, so all this must be tabled.

 

 

[TheKitttenGuard]

1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Likud is dangerous.  Can they be voted out of power?  Is that a real political possibility in Israel?

Likud is a very mainstream Israeli party. It's leader was able to speak in front of a Bi-Partisan Senate to speak against policy the U.S President was pursuing. 

Likud the problem I see as very overly simplistic. I think two of the most Right Wing Israel parties have been the Democratic and Republican parties. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

6 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Did you notice how much in the news all over the world, particularly in the US and the UK BEFORE Oct. 7 covered what was going on with him and elections and the courts?

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/netanyahus-judicial-overhaul-faces-first-legal-challenge-in-israeli-supreme-court

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2024-01-01/ty-article-opinion/.premium/netanyahus-coup-hasnt-disappeared-since-oct-7-it-hides-behind-a-call-for-unity/0000018c-c12c-d3e0-abac-d9ad52090000

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2024/01/22/benjamin-netanyahu-israel-gaza-hamas-war-hostages

He was to be indicted for massive corruption and bribery etc., massive protests all over Israel against him and the party for months and months -- also about his judicial coup on the courts that would try him -- and then, ah ha! Oct. 7, so all this must be tabled.

 

 

Yes… I’m aware.