Israel and Palestine- The permanent mess

[kissdbyfire]

6 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Did you notice how much in the news all over the world, particularly in the US and the UK BEFORE Oct. 7 covered what was going on with him and elections and the courts?

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/netanyahus-judicial-overhaul-faces-first-legal-challenge-in-israeli-supreme-court

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2024-01-01/ty-article-opinion/.premium/netanyahus-coup-hasnt-disappeared-since-oct-7-it-hides-behind-a-call-for-unity/0000018c-c12c-d3e0-abac-d9ad52090000

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2024/01/22/benjamin-netanyahu-israel-gaza-hamas-war-hostages

He was to be indicted for massive corruption and bribery etc., massive protests all over Israel against him and the party for months and months -- also about his judicial coup on the courts that would try him -- and then, ah ha! Oct. 7, so all this must be tabled.

 

 

Just watched a video with professor Omer Bartov where he said that Netanyahu will stretch the war as long as he possibly can because of his legal issues among other things. Very disheartening but sounds about right.

[Rippounet]

25 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Precisely.

And?

The fact is one thing, but you seem to believe there is the one single conclusion deriving from it. If you want to make a case, make it.

[Zorral]

6 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Yes… I’m aware.

So why ask such a question, particularly in view of the media bubble and crackdown on any dissent of atrocities upon the Palestinians, while the drumbeat of Israel media propaganda is pushing even those who were initially horrified to the idea that violent ethnic cleansing is a good idea?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Just now, Rippounet said:

And?

The fact is one thing, but you seem to believe there is the one single conclusion deriving from it. If you want to make a case, make it.

Ripp,

I’m frequently negative about human nature.  I fear… given the lack of Jewish presence in the Arab-Muslim majority States surrounding Israel/Palestine that if the “one State solution” is adopted and a majority Arab government takes control of the new “Israel/Palestine” they will seek to expel Jewish Israeli’s from the new “unitary State”.  That would result in an incredibly bloody civil war in Israel/Palestine.  I support a two State solution as a result.

I also recognize that both Hamas and Likud oppose that and we are watching an incredibly bloody war taking place as a result.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

12 minutes ago, Zorral said:

So why ask such a question, particularly in view of the media bubble and crackdown on any dissent of atrocities upon the Palestinians, while the drumbeat of Israel media propaganda is pushing even those who were initially horrified to the idea that violent ethnic cleansing is a good idea?

I wasn’t aware of Likud arresting Israeli citizens for speaking out against atrocities against Palestinians [before you provided your links].

Edited January 14 by Ser Scot A Ellison
To clarify

[Zorral]

Just now, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I wasn’t aware of Likud arresting Israeli citizens for speaking out against atrocities against Palestinians.  

Links provided by me above, babe.

 

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

8 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Links provided by me above, babe.

 

 

Sorry… I wasn’t clear… I should have said “before you provided your links I wasn’t aware”.  

I’ll edit.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

36 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Ripp,

I’m frequently negative about human nature.  I fear… given the lack of Jewish presence in the Arab-Muslim majority States surrounding Israel/Palestine that if the “one State solution” is adopted and a majority Arab government takes control of the new “Israel/Palestine” they will seek to expel Jewish Israeli’s from the new “unitary State”.  That would result in an incredibly bloody civil war in Israel/Palestine.  I support a two State solution as a result.

I also recognize that both Hamas and Likud oppose that and we are watching an incredibly bloody war taking place as a result.

 

It's the literal stated goal. But that's a good ethnostate. 

[House Balstroko]

49 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Ripp,

I’m frequently negative about human nature.  I fear… given the lack of Jewish presence in the Arab-Muslim majority States surrounding Israel/Palestine that if the “one State solution” is adopted and a majority Arab government takes control of the new “Israel/Palestine” they will seek to expel Jewish Israeli’s from the new “unitary State”.  That would result in an incredibly bloody civil war in Israel/Palestine.  I support a two State solution as a result.

I also recognize that both Hamas and Likud oppose that and we are watching an incredibly bloody war taking place as a result.

The one state solution is a terrible proposition altogether. The two state solution is essential for Israel’s survival. The big hurdle is that it’s hard to agree on borders. 

[Rippounet]

40 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I’m frequently negative about human nature.  I fear… given the lack of Jewish presence in the Arab-Muslim majority States surrounding Israel/Palestine that if the “one State solution” is adopted and a majority Arab government takes control of the new “Israel/Palestine” they will seek to expel Jewish Israeli’s from the new “unitary State”.  That would result in an incredibly bloody civil war in Israel/Palestine.  I support a two State solution as a result.

I also recognize that both Hamas and Likud oppose that and we are watching an incredibly bloody war taking place as a result.

I believe in the plasticity of "human nature." So, pragmatically, what do we know is ncessary for two groups/ethnicities/peoples to peacefully coexist? I'd say:
1) Equality. As in de facto legal and political equality, as well as equality of socio-economic opportunity.
2) Intermixing. Forced desegregation, lots of echange programs of all types. Celebration of tolerance, openness and multiculturalism.
3) No hatred. The willingness to use the full force of a modern state against movements and people preaching inequality, intolerance or hatred.

1) and 2) are easier within a single state, but don't require it. Regardless of whether you're in favor of a single-state or a two-state "solution," the sticky point is, and will always be the third one. As long as extremist movements are not just tolerated, but even have access to political power, peaceful coexistence will remain impossible.
To put it differently: there needs to be the political will to make some kind of ideas reprehensible. And yeah, I know this is unpalatable in the US, and there is the slippery-slope argument that this is the road to totalitarianism, yada yada... But given the obvious outcome of having let the Hamas-Likud axis-of-evil in charge, perhaps it would be time to affirm that some ideas are in fact antithetical to a universal conception of human dignity?

[Hmmm]

It is just not a reasonable solution. Certainly less so than the two-state one. It is like arguing that the way to solve conflicts in former Yugoslavia would be to cram everyone in with Serbia again. 

Edited January 14 by Hmmm

[TheKitttenGuard]

@Zorral

I read on Tal Mitnic and could not imagine the pressures he and others are under and I do not know if I can be strong as them.

[Zorral]

3 hours ago, TheKitttenGuard said:

@Zorral

I read on Tal Mitnic and could not imagine the pressures he and others are under and I do not know if I can be strong as them.

Me either.

The pain of our Israeli friends who have been activists protesting against both the treatment of Palestinians and protesting Netanyahu, Likud, etc. for years, cannot be described.

 

[Kalbear]

9 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

The large and vociferous protests against Netanyahu and his policies in Israel by Israelis suggests Likud’s BS is a long way from universally supported by Israelis.

And those protests happened just recently and because they tried to curtail the judicial system. Israelis had largely been fine with him prior to that, with the other exception being his corruption scandal.

 

[Daeron the Daring]

3 hours ago, Hmmm said:

It is just not a reasonable solution. Certainly less so than the two-state one. It is like arguing that the way to solve conflicts in former Yugoslavia would be to cram everyone in with Serbia again. 

The exact same principle you argue against served as the basis of the creation of the post-Yugoslav country that is Bosnia. The state in which the country was created wasn't particularly popular with either of the three ethnicities present, and it's a literal product of western interventionism.

A single-state solution would have to face different economic challenges, but the creation of Bosnia in its current form certainly stopped the south slavs from ethnically cleansing each other, which they just did prior, during the Yugoslav wars.

[Rippounet]

10 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

And those protests happened just recently and because they tried to curtail the judicial system. Israelis had largely been fine with him prior to that,

That's a bit unfair. There were 4 elections in about two years (and 5 in less than four), and Netanyahu only got about 23% of votes in the end. I'll be the first to say that Israel has moved to the right, but we're far from a landslide here.

[Kalbear]

Just now, Rippounet said:

That's a bit unfair. There were 4 elections in about two years (and 5 in less than four), and Netanyahu only got about 23% of votes in the end. I'll be the first to say that Israel has moved to the right, but we're far from a landslide here.

They're still largely fine with him, and if they are not fine its because he failed to prevent 7-10, not because of any actions against Palestinians.

Likud is probably gonna be hosed for a bit, but that doesn't mean necessarily a more progressive state or a policy more inclined to accept Palestinian self rule.

[Zorral]

2 hours ago, Kalbear said:

And those protests happened just recently

Not so, not quite.  Activists had been protesting against Netanyahu for a long time.  But it was his arrogance to take over the court system to exempt him from answering to his crimes that provoked most of the country.

But now with such a lock down on Israeli media and the propaganda, more and more Israeli as floating his way because THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON IN GAZA or why the world objects.  They could know of course, but aren't working hard enough to do so.  I put up some links describing these conditions earlier today in this thread, as for On the Media podcast from the NYer -- which can also be accessed via NPR, and radio stations such as WNYC.

 

Edited January 15 by Zorral

[straits]

15 hours ago, Hmmm said:

It is just not a reasonable solution. Certainly less so than the two-state one. It is like arguing that the way to solve conflicts in former Yugoslavia would be to cram everyone in with Serbia again. 

Which is an interesting parallel, given the huge difference in the western response regarding the wars and atrocities in the 90s in the ex-Yu region, when compared with the response towards Israel's set of policies (and occassional "mowing the lawn" bombing campaigns) against Palestinians.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

25 minutes ago, straits said:

Which is an interesting parallel, given the huge difference in the western response regarding the wars and atrocities in the 90s in the ex-Yu region, when compared with the response towards Israel's set of policies (and occassional "mowing the lawn" bombing campaigns) against Palestinians.

I appreciate your point and the Israeli response is well beyond the pale.  78 Journalists killed by IDF attacks with the IDF reponse being “We thought they were Hamas” or “warzones are dangerous”…

Unfortunately, Hamas sucks and I suspect Hamas wanted and over the top response from the IDF when it attacked in October.  Likud loved Hamas’ low level bullshit because it kept Israelis frightened and supportive of the “strong” Party.  

As long as Hamas and Likud lead the combatants… I don’t see how this gets better.  Hamas is sworn to destroy Israel… Palestinian and Israeli public be damned… Likud is sworn to destroy Hamas (after kinda winking at them for years because Hamas ticked all the boxes Likud liked for years)… Palestinian and Israeli public be damned.  

This situation is complicated and difficult it is impossible until we get leadership in the two combatant sides willing to speak reasonablely and rationally to each other.

Edited January 15 by Ser Scot A Ellison