Israel and Palestine- The permanent mess

[Tywin et al.]

29 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah, but Netanyahu has been talking about driving Palestinians out since the 70s, so before Hamas even existed. 

He was not a government official then. I'm sure he's always believed that, but it's not comparable. 

Quote

And the article quoted is from May 2009, and Netanyahu is still the PM with only a little gap of 1 or 2 years? Not very encouraging.

Indeed, it is not. 

1 hour ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Everybody's opinion is much more layered than that,

It really isn't, especially if your focus is only on one side of a long standing fucked up situation. I've gone out of my way to discuss how both sides have been awful for decades and how it's driven each to even worse places, but if someone who knew nothing about the topic read these threads they'd come away thinking only Israel is in the wrong. A throwaway sentence is not enough to discuss Hamas. 

Edited January 14 by Mr. Chatywin et al.

[fionwe1987]

46 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

It really isn't, especially if your focus is only on one side of a long standing fucked up situation. I've gone out of my way to discuss how both sides have been awful for decades and how it's driven each to even worse places, but if someone who knew nothing about the topic read these threads they'd come away thinking only Israel is in the wrong. A throwaway sentence is not enough to discuss Hamas. 

Do you think that is happening, and that is the audience we need to pitch our posts to? I thought this is a conversation, where the participants all have their relative levels of understanding of the topic. I didn't realize this was also supposed to be a guide on the subject to the totally clueless. 

[GrimTuesday]

This idea that Netanyahu is some kind of aberration and not the continuation of a violent, racist settler colonial project that has been going on for over a century is just plain wrong. Even the socialists amongst the early Zionists wrote about civilizing the backwards, provincial Arabized Jews of Palestine and cleansing the lands of the Palestinians. Israel as a state is and has always been built on and maintained through violence and pretending that the government of today doesn't have a direct ideological through line in terms of the Palestinians to the founders of the country is ahistorical and intellectually bankrupt.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

30 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

This idea that Netanyahu is some kind of aberration and not the continuation of a violent, racist settler colonial project that has been going on for over a century is just plain wrong. Even the socialists amongst the early Zionists wrote about civilizing the backwards, provincial Arabized Jews of Palestine and cleansing the lands of the Palestinians. Israel as a state is and has always been built on and maintained through violence and pretending that the government of today doesn't have a direct ideological through line in terms of the Palestinians to the founders of the country is ahistorical and intellectually bankrupt.

The large and vociferous protests against Netanyahu and his policies in Israel by Israelis suggests Likud’s BS is a long way from universally supported by Israelis.

Where are you going with this line of thought?  Are you implying that the destruction of Israel and explusion of Jewish Israeli’s that Hamas advocates is somehow justified because of your criticism of Zionism?

Edited January 14 by Ser Scot A Ellison

[GrimTuesday]

24 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

The large and vociferous protests against Netanyahu and his policies in Israel by Israelis suggests Likud’s BS is a long way from universally supported by Israelis.

Where are you going with this line of thought?  Are you implying that the destruction of Israel and explusion of Jewish Israeli’s that Hamas advocates is somehow justified because of your criticism of Zionism?

First of all, the protests weren't in regards to Likud's policies as relates to the Palestinians, it was in regards to judicial reforms that would have hurt Israelis. There is not wide spread concern for the rights of Palestinians amongst the Israeli public, sure there are those who are peace activists or do volunteer work to help get Gazans to hospitals and such, but that is not necessarily a popular sentiment. This also does not mean that they are all genocidal monsters like certain members of the current Israeli government, but do not fool yourself into thinking that there is some broad coalition of Israelis who support Palestinians either.

Secondly, what an bizarre take away from what I said. Nowhere in my post did I even intimate that the fact that you can draw a direct line between Israeli leaders of the past to what Netanyahu is doing today is grounds for the expulsion of Jewish Israelis. Just like Trump was not an aberration but rather the logical next step in the Republican evolution, Netanyahu and his policies we are seeing play out before our eyes are just the continuation of the Israeli national project.

I have, in every incarnation of these threads, always argued that a single state where in Israelis and Palestinians would be allowed to live on equal terms with a robust truth and reconciliation commission like in South Africa is the best course forward. At no time have I ever argued for even the displacement of the Israeli settlers in the West Bank. I believe that the only way forward to together rather than a two state solution that will still leave a significant amount of resentment on both sides that will be used to foment further conflict.

Edited January 14 by GrimTuesday

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

3 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

argued that a single state where in Israelis and Palestinians would be allowed to live on equal terms with a robust truth and reconciliation commission like in South Africa is the best course forward. At no time have I ever argued for even the displacement of the Israeli settlers in the West Bank. I believe that the only way forward to together rather than a two state solution that will still leave a significant amount of resentment on both sides that will be used to foment further conflict.

How many Jews are there in the majority Muslim Arab States surrounding Israel?  I absolutely want Israeli settlers removed from the West Bank.

Edited January 14 by Ser Scot A Ellison

[Tywin et al.]

17 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Where are you going with this line of thought?  Are you implying that the destruction of Israel and explusion of Jewish Israeli’s that Hamas advocates is somehow justified because of your criticism of Zionism?

100%. Why even ask? He's said it before. There's this weird super left strain in US politics that believes some pretty crazy shit. I saw a report the other day about growing sentiment towards Al-Qaeda. It's strange seeing people saying they're the most liberal supporting totally illiberal groups and causes. Something has gone horribly wrong. 

59 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Do you think that is happening, and that is the audience we need to pitch our posts to? I thought this is a conversation, where the participants all have their relative levels of understanding of the topic. I didn't realize this was also supposed to be a guide on the subject to the totally clueless. 

I think a lot of posters don't understand the subject at all. It's really complicated yet so many feel free to say whatever they believe while probably only reading a few articles about it. The Israel-Palestine history is one of the most difficult to discuss in the world. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 minute ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

The Israel-Palestine history is one of the most difficult to discuss in the world. 

Yup.  

[Tywin et al.]

10 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

is grounds for the expulsion of Jewish Israelis.

You've literally said it. From the river to the sea means Jews GTFO. 

[fionwe1987]

9 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

I think a lot of posters don't understand the subject at all. It's really complicated yet so many feel free to say whatever they believe while probably only reading a few articles about it. The Israel-Palestine history is one of the most difficult to discuss in the world. 

I'm not claiming everyone here is an expert. And the discussion is certainly complex, as these threads prove. I'm asking you, though, if you think the point of this discussion is to serve as a history lesson for the completely uninitiated. That seems far from everyone's mind when they're having the conversation here, including, I'd argue, yours.

[TheKitttenGuard]

11 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

You've literally said it. From the river to the sea means Jews GTFO. 

It is not more or less than anything than Eretz Y'israel. It was pointed out Likud meant did same phrasing back in the '70s in platforms.

I heard a lot of Israeli 'Chai at rallies. That is going back to Kahane 'Chai and that very extremist motto is now more mainstream and being used in a affirmation.

[Conflicting Thought]

1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

How many Jews are there in the majority Muslim Arab States surrounding Israel?  I absolutely want Israeli settlers removed from the West Bank.

By any means necessary? Just in the way that hamas must be removed by any means?

[Conflicting Thought]

I guess to some not doing genocide and ethnic cleansing is a veeery very complex issue

Oh my gosh is it complex.

I supossed the settlments are to, a really complex issue, so complex that kids should be killed?

Is it to complex to stop killing innocent people? I guess, i do wonder if the roles where reversed if it still would be so complex. Like if the palestinians where to kill every settler, men, woman and children, would we hear of the complexity this all has.

[Zorral]

Israelis don't know what's going on in Gaza.  They see in their media something entirely different, which is pushing the population as a whole into support of atrocity and extremism.  They are in shock that the world hates what Israel is doing in Gaza, they don't understand that the world sees something very different than what they are presented in their at home bubble.  Ultimately, the conclusion is that those who hate what is happening in Gaza are nazis, and after all the US bombed Dresden so how dare people in the US object to far less horror that is Gaza?

How Israeli Media Depicts the Destruction in Gaza

This is a segment from our January 12th, 2024 show, Israeli TV News Sanitizes the Bombing of Gaza.

https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/otm/segments/israeli-media-destruction-gaza-on-the-media

Earlier this week, Israel’s bombardment of Gaza entered its fourth month, the death toll rising to over 23,000 according to the Gaza Health Ministry. And on Thursday, at the International Court of Justice at the Hague, South Africa laid out a detailed case accusing Israel of committing genocide in Gaza. Nightmarish images of destruction in Gaza have filled the news and social media feeds for months. But within Israel, mainstream media outlets tell a very different story. This week, Micah Loewinger speaks with Oren Persico, a staff writer at The Seventh Eye, an independent investigative magazine focused on media and freedom of speech in Israel, about the Israeli media landscape in the months following October 7th, and the "dome of disconnection" it created. 

 

[Tywin et al.]

1 hour ago, fionwe1987 said:

I'm not claiming everyone here is an expert. And the discussion is certainly complex, as these threads prove. I'm asking you, though, if you think the point of this discussion is to serve as a history lesson for the completely uninitiated. That seems far from everyone's mind when they're having the conversation here, including, I'd argue, yours.

You have to understand the history and the nuances to understand today. Being incredibly selective isn't helpful.

1 hour ago, TheKitttenGuard said:

It is not more or less than anything than Eretz Y'israel. It was pointed out Likud meant did same phrasing back in the '70s in platforms.

I heard a lot of Israeli 'Chai at rallies. That is going back to Kahane 'Chai and that very extremist motto is now more mainstream and being used in a affirmation.

Just like this. Literally saying life in Hebrew is not the same as you need to leave or die. 

[Zorral]

9 hours ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

Hamas predates this current regime

Hamas was est. 2003; the Likud founding charter, first article stating the entire region from river to sea should be Israel and this was their objective, is from 1977.

[Tywin et al.]

1 minute ago, Zorral said:

Hamas was est. 2003; the Likud founding charter, first article stating the entire region from river to sea should be Israel and this was their objective, is from 1977.

1987. Use the internet. It started more than a decade before so. 

[Zorral]

3 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

humiliating its citizens, starving and ethnically cleansing them... why is all this accepted by you under the guise of "no good way to do it"?

Israel was doing this to Gazans, the West Bankers and Palestinians who live in Jerusalem and Israel long prior to )ct. 7, if not at the scale of the last months, literally starving people to death.

[Zorral]

1 minute ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

Use the internet. I

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform-of-the-likud-party

1977.

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

I think a lot of posters don't understand the subject at all. It's really complicated yet so many feel free to say whatever they believe while probably only reading a few articles about it. The Israel-Palestine history is one of the most difficult to discuss in the world.

From the start of this, you are one of the posters who showed over and over an ignorance of this complicated and long history.

While others who knew a lot more for various reasons were called at times from others were called liars (not by you, but there are those who did, and it has been noticed they have gone elsewhere).

Edited January 14 by Zorral