Pod and Egg

[kissdbyfire]

19 minutes ago, Sandy Clegg said:

it's driving me slightly potty (sic).

[Phylum of Alexandria]

29 minutes ago, Sandy Clegg said:

What a 'convenience' that his ancestor was also a John!

Interesting. I didn't realize that "convenience" was used for toilets.

In Japanese (and probably Chinese), the second character in the word for poop (大便, "daiben")  and pee (小便, "shouben") is also used for convenience (...and also, deliveries).

Poop is basically "big convenience/delivery" and pee is "little convenience/delivery."

And a crude word for toilets is 便所 (benjo), which I always translated as "shit place," but it could also be a place of convenience.

Where is Uncle Benjen? In the benjo!

[Sandy Clegg]

21 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Interesting. I didn't realize that "convenience" was used for toilets.

In Japanese (and probably Chinese), the second character in the word for poop (大便, "daiben")  and pee (小便, "shouben") is also used for convenience (...and also, deliveries).

Poop is basically "big convenience/delivery" and pee is "little convenience/delivery."

And a crude word for toilets is 便所 (benjo), which I always translated as "shit place," but it could also be a place of convenience.

Where is Uncle Benjen? In the benjo!

Convenience is just one of many, many synonyms for toilet in English. I do wonder whether reading the books in foreign languages means one is missing out on a ton of wordplay-related clues.

Interesting about the Chinese lingo. In English we have, of course, 'number ones' and 'number twos' which are analogous to those you mentioned. I actually wondered whether 'Greatjon Umber' and Smalljon Umber' weren't a riff on these phrases, as in 'Great John Number' (poop) and Small John Number (pee). If so, it means GRRM has a devilishly childish sense of humour.

I also mention the Chinese 'pig toilet' I think in my post, in reference to Pate the Pig Boy who is another Jon stand-in.

[Seams]

On 2/1/2024 at 8:53 PM, Evolett said:

The white, gold and purple colours of the Payne sigil were colours typically used by royalty in medieval times, perhaps a hint, while the coins may speak to a more affluent past. 

The Payne sigil also alludes to the "game" of thrones motif because it looks like a royal checkerboard. 

I do think the gold coins in the sigil represent kings: there is a link between coins and icons but also coins and dragon scales (Pennytree is a tree/dragon/king hybrid). The nail through each penny at Pennytree may represent the slaying of many kings. But this then ties into the Master of Coin motif involving Littlefinger and Tyrion, Penny and Groat, etc. 

I do believe that the Payne / Dayne connection is significant, along with House Reyne, the step-mother / in-laws that Tywin Lannister tried to destroy. 

Not to beat a nearly-dead horse (or piebald rounsey) but I also think there is a pain / pane / Payne pun that ties Pod into window panes, physical pain and the French word for bread. That could mean that Hot Pie, the baker, is also part of this group of characters. Window panes in the book are sometimes described as diamond-shaped. Dragon teeth are compared to diamonds. If accurate, this wordplay / symbolism chain would tie House Payne into dragons. 

On 2/2/2024 at 3:02 AM, Hippocras said:

I think it is more likely he will end up in charge of Casterly Rock. Why? Well either his backstory is entirely truthful and he has key female line Lannister ancestry, or the theory that he is Tyrion’s son by Tysha turns out true. In that case, Tyrion would legitimize him and name him heir.

Pod has a sty on his eye. "Sty" is another name for a pen or shelter for pigs. 

The Imp turned away from her. "The first time I wed, there was us and a drunken septon, and some pigs to bear witness. We ate one of our witnesses at our wedding feast. Tysha fed me crackling and I licked the grease off her fingers, and we were laughing when we fell into bed." (ASoS, Sansa III)

Also:

Far from home, alone, and penniless, the boy had attached himself to a fat hedge knight named Ser Lorimer the Belly, who was part of Lord Lefford's contingent, charged with protecting the baggage train. "The boys who guard the foodstuffs always eat the best," Ser Lorimer liked to say, until he was discovered with a salted ham he'd stolen from Lord Tywin's personal stores. Tywin Lannister chose to hang him as a lesson to other looters. Podrick had shared the ham and might have shared the rope as well, but his name had saved him. Ser Kevan Lannister took charge of him, and sometime later sent the boy to squire for his nephew Tyrion. (AFfC, Brienne III)

I don't know whether Tyrion will name him heir, but I think the author wants us to connect Pod to Tyrion's Tysha bond, whether he intends Pod as a literal descendant of Tyrion or not. 

 

Edited February 5 by Seams

[Gilbert Green]

I think the significance, if any, of Pod's sty is that it is superficial and temporary.  It does not define who he is.  It is just something he happens to have at a particular moment in time.

So if a mystery knight with a mystery squire shows up at the Vale tourney, and that squire happens to have a sty, it probably isn't Pod.

[Sandy Clegg]

9 hours ago, Seams said:

I do believe that the Payne / Dayne connection is significant

A random thought - in England both 'p' and 'd' represent(ed) a penny. Before the 70s it was 'd' and now we use 'p'. So Payne/Dayne are synonymous regarding the use of the penny if that's the motif we're looking at.

[Hippocras]

1 hour ago, Sandy Clegg said:

A random thought - in England both 'p' and 'd' represent(ed) a penny. Before the 70s it was 'd' and now we use 'p'. So Payne/Dayne are synonymous regarding the use of the penny if that's the motif we're looking at.

Flip sides of the coin?

Well, to continue the Tysha+Tyrion reasoning: I feel reasonably certain that the Daynes "hid" Maegor son of Aerion under a different name as a favour to Aegon V to prevent an eventual challenge to the throne (this would be why Maegor's son or grandson Gerold Dayne is the most dangerous man in Dorne). This would mean that if the Paynes hid Pod under a different name also, as a favour to Tywin, there is a direct correspondence between the actions of the two Houses.

Edited February 5 by Hippocras

[Sandy Clegg]

6 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Flip sides of the coin?

 

Well the 'd' in postwar English currency (like 10s8d = 10 shillings and 8 pence) comes from the Latin word denarius, which is of course: a penny. So, a connection to Daenerys. Whatever George has in mind when building his symbol mysteries (especially Pennytree), it has something to do with pennies / Daenerys / trees. A lot to unpick, basically.

George is famously noncommittal when it comes to how to pronounce the names of his characters. He's on record stating that we can pronounce them however we choose, which - to me- is another way of saying we should be free to play around with said pronunciations in order to resolve any mysteries therein.

So House Payne and Dayne might be pronounced with one syllable (pain / dane) but one could also make the case for a more 'old-worldy' way of saying these names which sounds more like: day-knee (Dayne) and pay-knee (Payne). Or ...  Dany and Penny.

Like I say, a lot to unpick.

Edited February 5 by Sandy Clegg

[Hippocras]

39 minutes ago, Sandy Clegg said:

Well the 'd' in English currency (like 10s8d = 10 shillings and 6 pence) comes from the Latin word denarius, which is of course: a penny. So, a connection to Daenerys. Whatever George has in mind when building his symbol mysteries (especially Pennytree), it has something to do with pennies / Daenerys / trees. A lot to unpick, basically.

George is famously noncommittal when it comes to how to pronounce the names of his characters. He's on record stating that we can pronounce them however we choose, which - to me- is another way of saying we should be free to play around with said pronunciations in order to resolve any mysteries therein.

So House Payne and Dayne might be pronounced with one syllable (pain / dane) but one could also make the case for a more 'old-worldy' way of saying these names which sounds more like: day-knee (Dayne) and pay-knee (Payne). Or ...  Dany and Penny.

Like I say, a lot to unpick.

I was thinking a bit more graphcally:

"d" and "p" are often confused by dyslexics for obvious reasons. So wordplay could also be a matter of letter play, implying that one is the other, and backwards somehow.

[Sandy Clegg]

12 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

I was thinking a bit more graphcally:

"d" and "p" are often confused by dyslexics for obvious reasons. So wordplay could also be a matter of letter play, implying that one is the other, and backwards somehow.

To go north, you must go south, etc etc. Possibly.

Coins as metaphors in ASOIAF are really worth exploring, though. The coin in Varys' chamberpot, the coin in Egg's shoe, a tree covered in coins, the 'coin in the air' tossed by the gods to decide whether a Targaryen is insane. Coins as dragons. Masters of Coin. The coin Arya uses to gain entry to the Faceless Men, and the ones she later uses in her assassination initiation in Braavos ... The list goes on.

Edited February 5 by Sandy Clegg

[Gilbert Green]

I know y'all are just having fun and brainstorming.  Will you call me a spoilsport if I opine that these semantic associations have maybe a one in a million chance of matching anything GRRM actually intends?  For all we know he was watching LASSIE COME HOME, and imagined a young Roddy McDowall, then changed Roderick to Podrick.  And no, I don't think this foreshadows him bonding with Nymeria.

Edited February 5 by Gilbert Green

[Sandy Clegg]

41 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

For all we know he was watching LASSIE COME HOME, and imagined a young Roddy McDowall, then changed Roderick to Podrick.  And no, I don't think this foreshadows him bonding with Nymeria.

Well we know now that at least Hodor's name was very well thought-out from the beginning and not drawn from Lassie. I won't go into details as this is a book-only forum. But there's precedent.

[Gilbert Green]

6 minutes ago, Sandy Clegg said:

Well we know now that at least Hodor's name was very well thought-out from the beginning and not drawn from Lassie. I won't go into details as this is a book-only forum. But there's precedent.

Yes, but nobody could have guessed, and nobody did guess, the meaning of "Hodor".  So I rate the success rate of this kind of speculation as very low.

Also "Hodor" is not his name.  His actual name is "Walder", and that has no special significance.  His mom probably named him after her favorite brother or favorite uncle or something, as is normal.  But "Hodor", the mysterious word that Walder says, and the source of his nickname, was set up as a mystery from the very start.

[Sandy Clegg]

36 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

Yes, but nobody could have guessed, and nobody did guess, the meaning of "Hodor".  So I rate the success rate of this kind of speculation as very low.

I agree it's low odds, but more like 1,000-1 than million to one. Which means we still might turn up something before Winds is released! 

Joking aside, @Gilbert Green does make valid points and I respect his voice in all the threads I've come across him in. The wait for TWOW has forced some of us to turn to more arcane methods of analysis I guess. But I still find more merit in the ultra-speculative breeding grounds on this forum than all the 'who was most evil' or 'let's bash GRRM's world-building threads' that plague the front page.

The process of thinking through this stuff is rewarding in itself, and the occasional gems more than make up for the wild goose chases. Just my two denarius - sorry denarii.

Edited February 5 by Sandy Clegg

[Seams]

23 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

Coins as metaphors in ASOIAF are really worth exploring, though. The coin in Varys' chamberpot, the coin in Egg's shoe, a tree covered in coins, the 'coin in the air' tossed by the gods to decide whether a Targaryen is insane. Coins as dragons. Masters of Coin. The coin Arya uses to gain entry to the Faceless Men, and the ones she later uses in her assassination initiation in Braavos ... The list goes on.

Agreed. It's been years since I've taken a look at coins as a central topic. 

Some links to old ideas, in case anyone wants to research old posts before coming up with a fresh spin on coins. (The thread about jailers is directly relevant to understanding the House Payne "hidden king" possibility. And overflowing chamber pots in jail cells is also relevant to your doo doo discussion.)

 

[Sandy Clegg]

20 minutes ago, Seams said:

your doo doo discussion.

It's more of a monologue than a discussion so far, but I appreciate the nod. 

[Wizz-The-Smith]

On 2/2/2024 at 1:53 AM, Evolett said:

The white, gold and purple colours of the Payne sigil were colours typically used by royalty in medieval times,

 

On 2/4/2024 at 11:55 PM, Seams said:

I do think the gold coins in the sigil represent kings: there is a link between coins and icons

Coins = scion

The colours of royalty and the coins representing Kings works well with the coins/scion anagram. 

20 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

But I still find more merit in the ultra-speculative breeding grounds on this forum than all the 'who was most evil' or 'let's bash GRRM's world-building threads' that plague the front page.

The process of thinking through this stuff is rewarding in itself, and the occasional gems more than make up for the wild goose chases.

Totally agree. It's fun, educational, and can absolutely lead to untouched hidden gems not yet found. I've been involved in such gems being uncovered through speculative ideas leading to great discussion. My hollow hills essay was born because of @Seams and their fell/seam wordplay. @ravenous reader, @LmL, @Rusted Revolver, and many others had a decent amount of joy unlocking the symbolism and layered meaning throughout the novels. Simply shooting the breeze in a relaxed, open, non judgmental group of friends have been the best times for me in this fandom. Most ideas were dead ends, but super fun. But some led to excellent ideas/theories that were supported very well by the text. What PainkillerJane and Ravenousreader called the cesspit was one such discussion mocked by many but the more one looks, the more you see the evidence of George using the 'shit' motif. Then what do you know, your fine self finds a load more evidence in your Jon/toilet research. 

Anyway, I'm always here for the speculative discussions, the best part of the fandom for me. And I don't care if 99% of it doesn't prove correct, as I've been part of 1% that has. It's exciting when it happens. 

Edited February 6 by Wizz-The-Smith

[Wizz-The-Smith]

20 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

But I still find more merit in the ultra-speculative breeding grounds on this forum than all the 'who was most evil' or 'let's bash GRRM's world-building threads' that plague the front page.

[Castellan]

On 2/5/2024 at 3:00 PM, Gilbert Green said:

I think the significance, if any, of Pod's sty is that it is superficial and temporary.  It does not define who he is.  It is just something he happens to have at a particular moment in time.

So if a mystery knight with a mystery squire shows up at the Vale tourney, and that squire happens to have a sty, it probably isn't Pod.

He has a sty and a pimple (both temporary phenomena, I agree!) is scrawny with nondescript hair and suffers from social terror that makes him stammer and hardly able to put a whole sentence together. Like Sam, and Brienne, he is a character who is dismissed by many around him but nevertheless, guess what, gets through by sheer persistence or whatever talents they do have. He is type that GRRM seems quite keen on.

I can see why there is a temptation to go from Egg was a secet targ and ended up King therefore Pod should echo this pattern but  I really don't want to think he will turn out to have some fantastic secret heritage. It would kind of spoil the whole point of his character and persistence. Its possible he'd end up head of house Payne because of the war and upheaval of the times, that's about as far as I want to speculate. Interesting events have got to come out of the return of Jaime and Brienne to the BWB camp and he'll be involved in those I assume as Brienne's squire. And I think that if the last book is ever written, at the end the major characters will mostly be dead and already turning into legend and there may be only a few of the youngest characters left to remember them, and Pod could be one of those.

[Gilbert Green]

19 hours ago, Castellan said:

He has a sty and a pimple (both temporary phenomena, I agree!) is scrawny with nondescript hair and suffers from social terror that makes him stammer and hardly able to put a whole sentence together. Like Sam, and Brienne, he is a character who is dismissed by many around him but nevertheless, guess what, gets through by sheer persistence or whatever talents they do have. He is type that GRRM seems quite keen on.

I can see why there is a temptation to go from Egg was a secet targ and ended up King therefore Pod should echo this pattern but  I really don't want to think he will turn out to have some fantastic secret heritage. It would kind of spoil the whole point of his character and persistence. Its possible he'd end up head of house Payne because of the war and upheaval of the times, that's about as far as I want to speculate. Interesting events have got to come out of the return of Jaime and Brienne to the BWB camp and he'll be involved in those I assume as Brienne's squire. And I think that if the last book is ever written, at the end the major characters will mostly be dead and already turning into legend and there may be only a few of the youngest characters left to remember them, and Pod could be one of those.

Yes, sty and pimple both temporary ... and I don't recall that he ever had both at the same time.

Scrawny?  Sure.  But I don't expect Edric to be getting much fatter either, with the life he is leading.

Nondescript hair?  Okay.  Edric's long fair hair is a bit more remarkable to be sure.  But did you catch where Gendry tells Edric that if his hair bothers him, he should cut it off?  That's foreshadowing, I guess.  When we next see Edric, he may no longer be defined by longish fair hair.

Stammers?  Edric is also shy and halting.  I don't recall Edric ever actually stammering.  But who knows what he would do in the presence of a beauty like Alayne Stone.  Given the trouble GRRM has already gone to to set up Podrick/Edric parallels, I half expect him to start stammering.

I don't assume Brienne is safe either.

If Edric becomes a mystery squire to a mystery knight, he will already parallel Egg to some extent.  He may not be a secret prince, but he would still be a secret lord.

Yes, I do think GRRM is more than capable of "meek shall inherit" themes.  But the story has a 1000 characters, and everyone can't be special.  One or two frogs may turn into princes, but the rest will live and die as frogs.  Pod might end up being one of them.

Jaime and Brienne do not have to return to the BWB camp.  And I for one don't expect them to.   Anyway, it seems our mystery lad Edric has already left the BWB.