Is it possible that Jon Arryn was killed because he was investigating Sweetrobin’s birth?

[KingStoneheart]

Now please correct me if I’m wrong, but something came to my mind when I was reading Sansa’s chapter where she meets Lysa.

Throughout AGOT, we’re obviously led to believe that Jon was killed because he knew about the Lannister bastards, but is there any actual proof that he knew this - or is that all Ned’s speculation? I.e does Cersei know 100% that he knew this?

If not, then I’m wondering what the possibility is that LF ordered him killed because he was actually investigating LF and Lysa’s relations and the possibility of Sweetrobin being LF’s. As this would be extremely bad for LF

I just think it would be funny if LF (this amazing mastermind) accidentally started the War of the Five Kings because of this assassination because I always have a headcanon belief that he accidentally started Robert’s rebellion by reading and burning Lyanna’s letter to Brandon saying that she’s run off with Rhaegar and not been kidnapped.

[Floki of the Ironborn]

While I do think that Sweetrobin is Littlefinger's biological son, I don't think Arryn was examining the parenthood of his own son. He was absolutely looking into Robert's children.

I agree that it's a funny thing to imagine, but I don't think it's anything but that; imagination.

[Nevets]

I think the murder had as much to do with Stannis as anything.  We know Lysa's motive was Jon's plan to foster Robert with Stannis, which she opposed.  LF might have decided it was a good opportunity to cause trouble between Stannis and the Lannisters, plus it made Lysa available.

[Craving Peaches]

Doesn't Pycelle make some remark to Tyrion about how Jon Arryn had to die because knew (about the incest)? That remark doesn't make much sense if he was investigating his own son's legitimacy instead.

Quote

"And what was Lord Arryn plotting?"

"He knew," Pycelle said. "About . . . about . . ."

"I know what he knew about," snapped Tyrion, who was not anxious for Shagga and Timett to know as well.

I don't think either Tyrion or Pycelle suspect Robert Arryn is illegitimate. Pycelle also deliberately botches Jon's treatment to ensure he dies (sends away the maester who is purging him which would actually help), if he's only concerned about his own son Pycelle seems to be lacking in motivation to do this.

Edited February 17 by Craving Peaches

[KingStoneheart]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Doesn't Pycelle make some remark to Tyrion about how Jon Arryn had to die because knew (about the incest)? That remark doesn't make much sense if he was investigating his own son's legitimacy instead.

I don't think either Tyrion or Pycelle suspect Robert Arryn is illegitimate. Pycelle also deliberately botches Jon's treatment to ensure he dies (sends away the maester who is purging him which would actually help), if he's only concerned about his own son Pycelle seems to be lacking in motivation to do this.

This is what I was looking for. To see if there was 100% proof that he did know about the bastards or not, however as it was LF/Lysa who poisoned him it also makes it a bit ambiguous as to why Pycelle would want him dead no? Unless he just assumed he was dying because Cersei wanted him dead or something 

[Craving Peaches]

8 hours ago, KingStoneheart said:

This is what I was looking for. To see if there was 100% proof that he did know about the bastards or not, however as it was LF/Lysa who poisoned him it also makes it a bit ambiguous as to why Pycelle would want him dead no? Unless he just assumed he was dying because Cersei wanted him dead or something 

I think what happened was:

LF/Lysa poisoned him but he didn't die straight away, it looked like he was ill. Colemon, the maester from the Vale, was treating Jon by purging him, i.e. trying to flush the poison out his system. Pycelle doesn't want him to potentially be saved because Pycelle believes he knows about the incest, so he sends Colemon away and stops the purging treatment which ensures Jon will die.

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He was purging Lord Arryn with wasting potions and pepper juice, and I feared he might kill him (he says this to Ned)

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 "Yes," he whimpered, "yes, Colemon was purging, so I sent him away. The queen needed Lord Arryn dead, she did not say so, could not, Varys was listening, always listening, but when I looked at her I knew. It was not me who gave him the poison, though, I swear it." (He admits this to Tyrion)

Pycelle wants him dead because he is a complete Lannister crony and the revelation would damage the house.

Quote

They dragged him out the splintered door. "Lannister," he moaned, "all I've done has been for Lannister . . ."

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Of all the mourners, Grand Maester Pycelle had seemed the most distraught. "I have served six kings," he told Jaime after the second service, whilst sniffing doubtfully about the corpse, "but here before us lies the greatest man I ever knew. Lord Tywin wore no crown, yet he was all a king should be."

He's a huge Tywin fanboy because he thinks Tywin makes the hard but necessary choices. When Pycelle was younger, there was an incident where a Lord of Oldtown took drastic action to stop a plague spreading, and Pycelle really admires it.

Quote

. . . I was a boy in Oldtown when the grey plague took half the city and three-quarters of the Citadel. Lord Hightower burned every ship in port, closed the gates, and commanded his guards to slay all those who tried to flee, be they men, women, or babes in arms. They killed him when the plague had run its course. On the very day he reopened the port, they dragged him from his horse and slit his throat, and his young son's as well. To this day the ignorant in Oldtown will spit at the sound of his name, but Quenton Hightower did what was needed. Your father was that sort of man as well. A man who did what was needed."

So basically I think Pycelle was doing whatever he thought best for House Lannister because of Tywin. After Tywin dies, he isn't so bothered with Cersei but still seems loyal to the more competent members of the House.

[Lady Winter Rose]

I thought something...

LF killed Arryn because of Lannisters and she didn't want Robert sent away, but why would LF care if Joffrey parentage is exposed? I got impression they both didn't care if Robert Arryn is LF's but I don't see what would LF lose if Joffrey isn't the heir any longer.

[H Wadsworth Longfellow]

@KingStoneheart  Possible but this is dependent on a chain of events of which we can't say happened.  What we do know, Jon Arryn was at least curious about the lineage of Cersei's children.  But there is not a passage in the text that says Robert Arryn is not who he is. 

[KingStoneheart]

30 minutes ago, H Wadsworth Longfellow said:

But there is not a passage in the text that says Robert Arryn is not who he is. 

This is true, although in saying that the same could be said about Jon Snow. There’s lots of indication that Lysa and Jon are not a compatible match for having children, and also indication that LF and Lysa had an affair whilst in KL

[John Suburbs]

On 2/15/2024 at 1:13 PM, KingStoneheart said:

Now please correct me if I’m wrong, but something came to my mind when I was reading Sansa’s chapter where she meets Lysa.

Throughout AGOT, we’re obviously led to believe that Jon was killed because he knew about the Lannister bastards, but is there any actual proof that he knew this - or is that all Ned’s speculation? I.e does Cersei know 100% that he knew this?

If not, then I’m wondering what the possibility is that LF ordered him killed because he was actually investigating LF and Lysa’s relations and the possibility of Sweetrobin being LF’s. As this would be extremely bad for LF

I just think it would be funny if LF (this amazing mastermind) accidentally started the War of the Five Kings because of this assassination because I always have a headcanon belief that he accidentally started Robert’s rebellion by reading and burning Lyanna’s letter to Brandon saying that she’s run off with Rhaegar and not been kidnapped.

Arryn was definitely investigating Robert's bastards with Stannis, and Stannis intended to use them to "prove" Cersei's incest with Jaime. So Arryn knew what Stannis thought, but neither of them knew for certain whether it was true or not, nor can they ever hope to prove it without a confession from either Cersei or Jaime or both.

But Arryn's murder was committed for multiple reasons. Lysa, who did the actual deed, did it to keep her Sweetrobin by her side and to rid herself of her aged, foul-breathed husband so she could be with her one true love: Petyr. Petyr, however, did it, and then had Lysa send the letter to Cat, to sow discord between wolf and lion.

[Springwatch]

Circumstantial evidence points to Arryn checking out the gold-always-gives-way-to-coal theory -

Quote

[...] the lord had been taking a great interest in the breeding of hunting hounds, the lord had visited a master armorer [... and asked to see the Baratheon bastard working there].

 

Edited February 22 by Springwatch

[House Cambodia]

On 2/18/2024 at 7:50 PM, Lady Winter Rose said:

I thought something...

LF killed Arryn because of Lannisters and she didn't want Robert sent away, but why would LF care if Joffrey parentage is exposed? I got impression they both didn't care if Robert Arryn is LF's but I don't see what would LF lose if Joffrey isn't the heir any longer.

LF was ready to climb that ladder of chaos.

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

On 2/18/2024 at 1:50 PM, Lady Winter Rose said:

I thought something...

LF killed Arryn because of Lannisters and she didn't want Robert sent away, but why would LF care if Joffrey parentage is exposed? I got impression they both didn't care if Robert Arryn is LF's but I don't see what would LF lose if Joffrey isn't the heir any longer.

LF is an opportunist. He gathers intel to use at a point that is most beneficial to his goals. Having a secret like that come out without there being something to gain for him, would be a major loss as it’s a big card to play.

 We know that LF wanted the following things:

1. Become a lord of something big like HH. He needed the war to create a situation where he could be awarded with HH. Note that he was only awarded such an important title because he SEEMED harmless, and because HH was in ruins and occupied and seemingly useless to him. 
 

2. Marry someone important to gain real power. LF needed HH to be able to marry Lysa. His real objective was probably to marry Cat, but he always kept Lysa as an easy substitute. His focus has now clearly shifted to Sansa, but before that his desired prize was definitely Cat.

3. In order to be able to marry Cat, Ned would have to die. The best way to do that, would be to get Ned to come to KL, and the way to get him there was by killing Jon Arryn. Being the opportunist he is, he never did that until it became necessary to keep his other cards.

4. I believe he wanted Robert dead at the right moment to kickstart a war.

What LF wanted was a child king on the throne, who would be easily manipulated, with a ditto mother. Plus a war to open up the opportunities for titles, and to weaken all the major noble houses.

in order to make that happen he needed to use the invest in a way that would make him gain as much as possible from it. To make that happen, he needed Stannis out of the city, so he couldn’t grab the power after Robert’s death, hence Jon Arryn needed to die, to make Stannis flee with his knowledge.

 He then needed the information to reach Cersei in a way that would make her kill Robert. Hence he needed Cersei to find out that Ned had found out about the incest. That would make her get rid of both Robert and Ned. I’m not sure if he expected Ned to tell het himself, but he definitely led Ned to the information in to get both him and Robert killed.