Have we got The Others all wrong?

[House Cambodia]

I've had a thought that's so outrageous I must have forgotten something obvious, but let me spit it out so you can shoot me down.

There have been heretics who've voiced the idea that The Others aren't quite the pantomime baddies POV characters in ASOIAF present them as, but I want to go further. They're doing nothing wrong; they're not a threat to the Seven Kingdoms, and they're the ones being wronged.

Let's start with The Wall. Built by ice magic. Only one kind of being practices ice magic - yup, The Others. Seems to me, they built the Wall - to keep humans out.

All's been well for the last 8,000 (?) years.

Now, has this been explained? - if the Wall was built to keep The Others and humans separate, why were the wildlings allowed to stay north of it? Did that respect the pact, or did humans undermine it from the start?

Were giants and Children part of the deal, allowed to remain north of the Wall?

Whilst giants appear to have been living alongside wildlings (not unmolested, as the name Tormund Giantsbane indicates), what about the Children? Did humans in the form of wildlings drive them to near extinction, or are there vast populations of them underground?

Anyway, it seems wildlings were free to prosper and populate the lands north of the Wall for 8000 years, but for some reason Mance Rayder deemed there was a sudden existential threat to the wildlings - and giants, and so organised them all to get south of the Wall. What that suggests is that, if he was right - and he may not have been, The Others had begun to 'cleanse' their lands of humans (and giants?).

In the meantime, the Nights Watch has been persistently breaking the long-standing agreement by sending Watchmen ranging beyond the Wall to hunt wildlings. The story opens with one Watchman, Waymar Royce confronting and challenging an Other to a fight to the death. We assume The Other instigated the confrontation because we learn about it from the point of view of humans, but should we trust the testimony?

BUT, and here's the rub, I know of no clear, independent evidence that The Others were or are trying to cross the Wall themselves. If they were to be simply left alone to exist in their own lands free of humans (other than Craster - they like Craster; oh dear, killed by the damned Watch), maybe they'd mind their own business.

[The Commentator]

Peace with the Others require human sacrifice. As in giving them babies they can turn. Greensers demand human sacrifice but for their trees to feed on.  
 

The Starks were giving to both side before the Conquest. They were serving the WW and the GS. The Conquest brought the power of the dragons and that was a huge deterrent to the WW and the GS. The dragons kept the WW and GS from getting their revenge when humans stopped giving.  

[House Cambodia]

26 minutes ago, The Commentator said:

Peace with the Others require human sacrifice. As in giving them babies they can turn. Greensers demand human sacrifice but for their trees to feed on.  
 

The Starks were giving to both side before the Conquest. They were serving the WW and the GS. The Conquest brought the power of the dragons and that was a huge deterrent to the WW and the GS. The dragons kept the WW and GS from getting their revenge when humans stopped giving.  

I'm suggesting peace isn't necessary, just that humans and Others keep to their own sides of the Wall.

But you touch on some issues there. The Old Ways custom of First Night ensured for millennia Starks produced a surfeit of Stark-blooded bastards to offer as sacrifices. It wasn't the dragons, it was the well-intentioned Good Queen Alysanne who wrecked that system. But who were the blood sacrifices - or live baby boys for? The Weirwood Net, The Others or Greenseers? What exactly is the relationship between Greenseers and the Others? With the sole exception of Bloodraven (and now Bran), there's no evidence that Greenseers live north of the Wall same as Others south of the Wall. Of course, neither Bloodraven nor Bran were born or lived north of the Wall - they're humans who've transgressed the deal. If Greenseers still exist, they're on the Isle of Faces.

There's a ton of very well-established speculation surrounding these questions, much of which is so well-established that it passes as fact in most fans' minds. I'm trying to tease out the actual textual evidence here - past the myths and legends of Westeros to actual cold, hard facts.

[Buried Treasure]

The gates of the Wall are built from the southern side. And the oldest gate (at the Night fort) is built upon the magic of the old gods; it wasn't the magic of the Others - it was their enemies, either men or CotF. (More likely the Children - unless Brandon the Builder was schooled by them like our Brand is being).

 

The first thing we learned about the Others is their cruel humour. The Other that slew Waymar Royce laughed after they killed him

Quote

after Royce's first injury....

The Other said something in a language that Will did not know; his voice was like the creaking of ice on a winter lake, and the words were mocking.

...the fight continues until Royce is in his knees, his eyes bleeding from the shards of his shattered sword...

The watchers moved forward together, as if some signal had been given. Swords rose and fell, all in a deathly silence. It was cold butchery. The pale blades sliced through ringmail as it were silk. Will closed his eyes. Far beneath him, he heard their voices and laughter sharp as icicles.

I maintain, the only thing people have wrong about the Others is why they accept sacrifice. It's bullshit built on superstitions of a bunch of frightened and ignorant women. The sacrifices weren't accepted because the boys will become Others, or because they were protecting their worshippers. They left Craster's keep alone for the price of a few sons and sheep because it amused them. 

[House Cambodia]

4 minutes ago, Buried Treasure said:

The gates of the Wall are built from the southern side. And the oldest gate (at the Night fort) is built upon the magic of the old gods; it wasn't the magic of the Others - it was their enemies, either men or CotF. (More likely the Children - unless Brandon the Builder was schooled by them like our Brand is being).

 

The first thing we learned about the Others is their cruel humour. The Other that slew Waymar Royce laughed after they killed him

2nd point first - I'm not saying the Others are snowflakes ; I'm merely pointing out that Waymar instigated the combat .

Gates - that's a fair point. The humans always had the intension of encroaching on the territory they'd agreed to cede to The Others. The gate at the Night Fort is significant - weirwood trees are perhaps the only significant feature that occurs on both sides of the Wall. It might be that CoF were permitted to live on both sides at the time. There's too much mystery currently wrapped up in the Weirwoods - we don't know if they ultimately benefit the humans or the Others.

Another mystery is why the Others took Craster's sons but not those of other wildlings. If chucking a couple of babies at them every year was adequate, there'd have been no reason for Mance to persuade the wildlings to up sticks and attempt to cross the Wall.

[BlackLightning]

10 minutes ago, Buried Treasure said:

The gates of the Wall are built from the southern side. And the oldest gate (at the Night fort) is built upon the magic of the old gods; it wasn't the magic of the Others - it was their enemies, either men or CotF. (More likely the Children - unless Brandon the Builder was schooled by them like our Brand is being).

 

The first thing we learned about the Others is their cruel humour. The Other that slew Waymar Royce laughed after they killed him

I maintain, the only thing people have wrong about the Others is why they accept sacrifice. It's bullshit built on superstitions of a bunch of frightened and ignorant women. The sacrifices weren't accepted because the boys will become Others, or because they were protecting their worshippers. They left Craster's keep alone for the price of a few sons and sheep because it amused them. 

Ooooh that's pretty unnerving

7 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

Were giants and Children part of the deal, allowed to remain north of the Wall?

I definitely think that the Children are a big part of the deal

That's why I don't really trust the Children or Bloodraven with Bran.

[StarkTullies]

I've never thought that the Others are an entity of pure evil, despite a crappy alternate telling which says otherwise.  It was clear from the very first chapter that they were more than complex than mindless killing machines, and yes- Waymar attacked first.

It seemed that the Others had just annihilated the Wilding village, so they are not misunderstood good guys either... but in this story the Others have done much less damage north of the Wall so far than the Lannister armies have done in the Riverlands.  Tywin indiscriminately burned and massacred everything in his path, while the Others seem to be selective... or are just really bad at massacring because they sure are taking their time.  They attacked the Fist, but Rangers were there on a war mission, while Mance Rayder's "kingdom" didn't seem to be on the verge of imminent annihilation.  Hardhome is now under attack, but from the limited information we have, that seems to be by the wights.  And I am not convinced that the wights are controlled by the Others.

And who says the Others are unified in ideology.  Maybe there are "peace activists" amongst the Others.

I've thought about the Wall possibility before too (being built by the Others).  Whatever ended the first Long Night seemed to be about diplomacy.  They retreated willingly, and they seemed to mind their own business for thousands of years.  They weren't interested in going south of the Wall, and they didn't even seem interested going south toward the Wall.

Bottom line, George Martin is not telling a story about an "evil race" where the happy ending is to bring genocide upon them.

[StarkTullies]

6 hours ago, The Commentator said:

The Starks were giving to both side before the Conquest.

The Starks weren't doing anything with the Others, nor was anybody south of the Wall.  Remember Tyrion's second chapter in AGOT, with the slow, difficult, endless journey from Winterfell to the Wall?  That was during the summer, and that was after the kingsroad was built.  It would have been much more difficult pre-Conquest before the road, or any other season than summer.  And the Others weren't just hanging out immediately opposite of the Wall, they were far north.

In the grand scheme of Westeros history, the Conquest wasn't that long ago, and the Night's Watch wouldn't have "forgotten" that they were performing sacrifices all this time.  No one south of the Wall was passing the Wall to perform human sacrifices without the NW's knowledge and support.  If sacrifices were happening, it was from people north of the Wall.  Craster is doing it but he is an outlier, and he is not carrying on a long family tradition.  The Others seemed to have only just recently reappeared.

What happened to make the Others return?  Who knows, but not something that happened 300 years earlier, or else they would have returned 300 years earlier.  You talk about dragons, but they've been gone for over 100 years.  The only new thing that we know recently happened north of the Wall is Bloodraven.  I'm not a "the Three-Eyed Crow is the master puppeteer of all events in Westeros" type of reader, but Bloodraven's disappearance into the cave and the Others' reappearance fits better with timing than any other theory I've heard offered.  Which is not to say I believe that theory, either.

[SeanF]

The Others have reasons for their actions, of that I have no doubt.

But, it seems plain that they are malign towards human beings.  They raise humans from the dead, as thralls.

[House Cambodia]

Good points, ST. just to reiterate, I'm not suggesting The Others are in any way 'good guys', but they're not bad either (I don't actually think they come with different aspirations or ambitions though). For me, the evidence indicates that when the Wall was constructed, they were given the land to the north of it, and humans the land to the south of it. They just want to be left alone. They seem to have largely left the wildlings alone, although that might have changed in recent times, but I'm questioning whether the wildlings ever had any right to be there anyway.

It also seems to me that human sacrifices were given to the weirwood trees (feeding the roots). The practice continues in a scaled down form with Ned feeding the blood off Ice to his heart tree. That might have indirectly benefitted the Others - the relationship between Others and weirwoods is murky in the extreme, and I'm trying to cut through the speculation to focus on what we know.

I do agree that the 'event' that maybe activated the Others was Bloodraven taking his Greenseer abilities into Other territory. FWIW I'm persuaded that he isn't the 3-eyed crow - that's future/past Bran, but that's a whole other can of worms.

[LongRider]

8 minutes ago, SeanF said:

They raise humans from the dead, as thralls.

But do they though?  How many times have the wights and the Others been seen together?  I for one am not convinced the Others control the wights.  

Edited April 3 by LongRider

[House Cambodia]

Just now, SeanF said:

The Others have reasons for their actions, of that I have no doubt.

But, it seems plain that they are malign towards human beings.  They raise humans from the dead, as thralls.

Yes, malign towards humans who invade/occupy their territory. I'm challenging the assumption that they have plans to invade The North or Westeros south of the Wall. Some recent(ish) event did upset and activate them that they are threatening wildlings, but I'm suggesting the original pact when the Wall was constructed guaranteed them to be left unmolested in all the land north of the Wall with humans south. Presumably the wildlings didn't agree to that and decided to take their chances (which appears to have been fine for 8000 years), but as far as the Others are concerned, they're still trespassing and now need evicting.

The Watch was set up to ensure the Others kept their part of the bargain, which they have. Unfortunately, The North Forgets and the NW habitually ranges north of the Wall hunting wildlings, which they have no right to do.

[Aebram]

On 4/3/2024 at 6:26 AM, House Cambodia said:

Let's start with The Wall. Built by ice magic. Only one kind of being practices ice magic - yup, The Others. Seems to me, they built the Wall - to keep humans out.

I think you've made some speculative leaps here. We don't know who built the Wall. Some would say that its very existence proves that the First Men did, in fact, have some ability to use ice magic.  Or perhaps they had help from the Children of the Forest. We know that the Children have a spell protecting their caves against wights. 

All the castles, stairways, and winch cages at the Wall are on the South side. All the gates are locked from the South side, as far as we know, with the exception of the Black Gate, which only opens for men of the Match. None of this makes much sense if the Wall was built to protect people (or other creatures) on the North side.

Quote

I'm challenging the assumption that they have plans to invade The North or Westeros south of the Wall.

The wildlings seem to think so. Before Osha was captured, she was planning to get as far South as she could. Also, Old Nan's story of the Long Night tells us that the Others came seeking to kill every living creature.

Quote

How many times have the wights and the Others been seen together? I for one am not convinced the Others control the wights. 

The best example may be the one at the very beginning of the story, the prologue of Game. An Other kills Ser Waymar Royce. Then its companions (the other Others, as it were) join in the slaughter, laughing. A few minutes later, Waymar becomes a wight and kills Wil. If that's not control, it's at least some sort of magical symbiosis.

Also, both types of creatures have blue eyes, even wights whose eyes were a different color before they died. And both types cause the environment around them to become intensely cold when they are active.

My own theory about the Others is that Old Nan was basically correct. They thrive on cold and death, and hate warmth and life. They have sensed that a harsh winter is coming, possibly another Long Night. They have become more active recently, to the point where the wildlings are becoming desperate to get South of the Wall.

How this will all unfold, I'm reluctant to predict; "prophecy will bite your prick off every time." But I do think that whatever happens will be consistent with these ideas of what the Others are and what they want.

It's true that the George likes to break stereotypes, and to create characters in many shades of gray, rather than pure good or evil. But a common element in epic fantasies is some sort of final, climactic battle between Good and Evil; and for that, you need someone who is pure evil, or at least close enough that everyone will be glad to see them destroyed.

I'm reminded of a science fiction book that tells of a war between humans and aliens that lasted for generations, until the two sides learned to communicate. Then they found out that it was all a big misunderstanding; both sides thought that the other had launched the first attack. It's possible that that's where ASOIAF  is headed. But I don't think so. That would just be too much of a break with the classic format: a 20-year, 10,000-pages long shaggy-dog joke.

Also, we haven't seen those giant ice spiders yet. That is going to be one heck of a final climactic battle!

Edited April 6 by Aebram

[House Cambodia]

2 hours ago, Aebram said:

I think you've made some speculative leaps here. We don't know who built the Wall.

Thanks for the response. What I'm trying to do is challenge deeply embedded assumptions, such as who built the Wall. Any point I make will therefore be 'speculative leaps' of my own - these are not points I'm willing to go to the stake for - I accept they're no more plausible than the views I'm challenging.

1. the castles, stairways, gates etc are on the south side. Yes indeed. The Others have no need of them, as they intend to stay on their own side. The infrastructure is there because Humans on the south side decided to break the pact to stay on the other side.

2. Osha is fleeing because she firmly believes the Others are killing wildlings - they are. But that's my point - wildlings, as humans were excluded from the pact to keep the races apart and thus, from the point of view of both Others north of the Wall and human south of it, have no status or territorial rights.

3. Wights. I agree with you on that point. I do see a relationship between Others and wights in terms you explain, with evidence in the first prologue.

For some reason, Others tolerated wildlings for eight millennia without seemingly taking their babies or turning them into wights. Something changed - a breach of the pact that was beyond tolerating the existence of wildlings in their land. If we search for an explanation, we have to speculate here - the timing, factoring in Craster, seems to coincide with Bloodraven taking up residence north of the Wall.

I also feel that it is most likely that we will get the apocalyptic battle we're all expecting, but the twist will be that we learn that humans have 'not remembered' and have "othered" the Others, and that the motive of the Others is merely to survive in their own land left in peace by humans. That need to communicate that you refer to is what is lacking, and presumably (!) Bran will be the bridge as he revolts against the indoctrination Bloodraven has tried to implant in him.

[The Hoare]

On 4/3/2024 at 3:40 PM, Buried Treasure said:

The first thing we learned about the Others is their cruel humour. The Other that slew Waymar Royce laughed after they killed him

To be fair, it could be that this wasn't laugh at all and it was just interpreted as such by Waymar's

[Club-foot cleft-lips]

I'm curious how long Mance has been fighting the Others. did he become king beyond the wall specifically to fight them? Probably not, because it took him years to consolidate his place, and he tends to want to get away from them even with the whole of his army collected.

For how long was he digging up barrows looking for the Horn of Winter? What other sacred places might have he disturbed?

Barrows are sacred to the aes sídhe, and other equivalent Celtic faeries, and they are after all who the Others are based on.

Maybe the Others are just pissed because wildlings/Mance disturbed the sacred land of the resting dead. that alone would probably anger them enough to organize a retaliatory response. Maybe it was the last straw that made them decide it was time to get all these people away from their side of the wall. and it worked.

By this logic, its men that are the wrong, and needs to make amends/apologize

That is, if we are looking for a reasonable justification for the others actions.

[KingoftheRiversandtheHills]

There had been a couple instances of wildlings coming together under a king-beyond-the-wall. The first instance was with Joramun, who fought against the Night's King of the Night's Watch who apparently fell in love with his corpse queen which some theorize is an Other. How do you know that this is the first time the Others tried coming south past the wall? To add onto that, it was the first time the Starks of Winterfell united with the Wildlings under a common cause. Sounds familiar? It's more probable that this coming winter is what would enable the Others to actually complete the their goal, whatever it is if its not genociding Westeros due to its duration. 

[House Cambodia]

You both make some good points here, supplementing and challenging my thesis.

Club-foot:

1. It doesn't affect my thesis in itself, but I tend to assume Mance declared himself King Beyond as part of his mission to unite and galvanise the wildlings. I don't think he was ever ambitious for power in itself.

2. However, you do raise an interesting point about searching for the Horn of J. Did this behaviour, rather than the activities of Bloodraven 'wake' The Others? It's worth considering. My initial thoughts are 'no' for two reasons. (a) the most rational explanation for Mance seeking the horn when no one had bothered for 8000 years is because he was looking for a device to send the new threat of The Others packing, and (b) Craster appears to be considerably older than Mance (who had a whole life before defecting from the NW), and must therefore have been giving baby boys to The Others before Mance declared himself.

3. Your conclusion is my hypothesis here - men (Andals, First Men, wildlings) are in the wrong and need to lay off.

 

King ot R&H

1. Wildlings crossing the Wall before Mance.

Yes. Post-Jorumun there appear to have always been occasional wildling chancers and even serious intentions to invade south of the Wall eg. Gendel and his brother. But they weren't fleeing from The Others; they were wildling humans not giving a damn about the pact between Humans (Starks?) and Children (?) and Others. The wildlings are always 'wildcards' since as free folk they respect no deals they never signed up to. These incursions do, however, provide justification for the NW to build forts and man the Wall, maybe even ranging beyond it in their mistaken belief that the pact with the Others can be broken on the assumption that Others no longer exist.

2. Jorumun, Night's King, Corpse Queen

This is a big deal - the problem is we know so little about what happened, and who the characters were, so we're almost wholly in the realm of speculation. The Night's King appears to have been a treacherous Stark. His queen - who, and more particularly, what the hell was she? A common assumption is that she was an Other, or half human/half Other cross-breed. I question that assumption. Despite what Old Nan says, I'm sceptical that Others are gendered and can breed (hence Craster's babies). My speculation is that they're analogous to fire magic shadow babies, in that they are ice magic ethereal shadows. In short, our knowledge of the whole Night's King episode is too vague for us to draw any firm conclusions.

[Club-foot cleft-lips]

15 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

 

2. However, you do raise an interesting point about searching for the Horn of J. Did this behaviour, rather than the activities of Bloodraven 'wake' The Others? It's worth considering. My initial thoughts are 'no' for two reasons. (a) the most rational explanation for Mance seeking the horn when no one had bothered for 8000 years is because he was looking for a device to send the new threat of The Others packing, and (b) Craster appears to be considerably older than Mance (who had a whole life before defecting from the NW), and must therefore have been giving baby boys to The Others before Mance declared himself.

 

 

I'm curious how would you then feel about an interpretation of Craster being something like the loyal bannerman, or maybe as being just a human, a The Others version of a smallfolk, paying his taxes, with Mance then being more an (in this specific relationship with the others) an (un)intentional rebel? Just as a general framework for the relationship.

 

 

[House Cambodia]

1 hour ago, Club-foot cleft-lips said:

I'm curious how would you then feel about an interpretation of Craster being something like the loyal bannerman, or maybe as being just a human, a The Others version of a smallfolk, paying his taxes, with Mance then being more an (in this specific relationship with the others) an (un)intentional rebel? Just as a general framework for the relationship.

 

 

I don't think Craster can be regarded as a 'regular guy'. We have these hints that in ancient times CotF sacrificed their children to the weirwoods, and that northerners/Starks practised human sacrifice, yet oddly, there are no references to wildlings sacrificing their babies (or any humans). I asked above in this thread, why don't wildlings give the Others a few babies every year and live untroubled north of the Wall? Wasn't Mance and Della's boy good enough? Seems to me, only Craster's sons fit whatever bill the Others want. What's that about?