ASOIAF vs LOTR

[Artas]

Well? In the book, the elves were important at Dol Guldur, too.

I don't think the movies leave any doubt that the main military burden in defeating Sauron falls on man.

[Slurktan]

My disappointment with the Elves fighting isn't that they are fighting; but that they are fighting at Helm's Deep. They have no connection to Rohan in either the books or the movies so it makes no sense for them to fight there. They fought with Elendil and Isildur in the movies so that means Gondor. And of course, they had to magically get around a massive army blocking the valley that Helm's Deep is in.

Someone asked earlier for a way to get rid of the great green goo of death... the Elves are the grey company and escort Aragorn. They and the dead defeat the Corsairs who were fighting the reserves of Gondor. Aragorn releases the dead and the Elves and Gondor reserves sail to Pelennor and save the day.

[fionwe1987]

In the movie, the elves were what prevented the total annihilation of the Rohirrim, which makes their role quite important.

You do realize that the Elves of Lothlorien kept the forces of Dol Guldur off the backs to Aragon and co. in the Morannon right? But for that, they would have been annihilated before they even reached the Black Gate.

This role is, if anything, even more significant than the role played by the Elves in Helm's Deep in the movie.

More importantly, the Elves can be taken as merely substituting the Dunedain who join Aragon in the books. The Dunedain are, after all, not in any way lesser warriors.

[Nerdanel]

I don't know if you have read LotR like 7 times or if you get a lot of this information from other sources, but it seems you know a lot more than from my one read. And I guess that my tastes stray away from elves, dwarves, hobbits,...mythical peoples and more towards historical fantasy like GRRM. I guess I don't think someone should have had to have read the Simirillion and 5 other history books for the world to seem viable.

Plus those histories were published long after LOTR and many readers would not have had all the background info (as I do not since I have not read them). Now I know he wrote them much earlier, with a lot of editing, but they almost seem like an explanation of the MiddleEarth after realizing how little sense a lot of things make. Tolkien may have known all about Middle Earth before he wrote The Hobbit and LOTR and had many of these unrealistic elements solved, but I as a reader do not know about the histories and many things do not make sense to me. Sorry.

You can pick up a lot from the LotR narrative itself, and if you're really curious there are the Appendices. The Silmarillion is for you if you really want to know more about the adventures of Beren and Lúthien, find out exactly what type of entity Sauron is, or learn who is that Elbereth who keeps getting mentioned. (It's also a great read on its own.) It's hardly essential, although it does enhance the enjoyment. The Unfinished Tales does have some information relating more to the present of LotR, but it's hardly crucial. For example, it turns out Tolkien had given thought to the military organization of Rohan, but it just doesn't matter very much at all to the actual narrative.

LotR can be read and enjoyed without paying deep attention. The trouble comes when someone doesn't pay attention and then complains that things don't make sense. I for one think LotR wouldn't have been improved by making sure to include enough infodumps that all the vaguely relevant details are explained however many times the least attentive reader needs it to sink in. I think Tolkien let the information seep through well enough as it is.

[Werthead]

The only military engagement of the Lothlorien elves is at Dol Guldur and that is in far different and smaller scope than Helm's Deep and well near the end of the war, when Sauron's forcers are almost defeated.

There's also the repeated assaults by forces out of Dol Guldur on Lothlorien itself, the use of Lothlorien troops in alliance with the Beornings, the Dalemen, the dwarves of Erebor in pushing back and encircling Dol Guldur, and the assault on Dol Guldur itself, not an inconsiderable fortress. The elves of Lorien played a substantial role in the fighting in the War of the Ring.

[wolverine]

You can pick up a lot from the LotR narrative itself, and if you're really curious there are the Appendices. The Silmarillion is for you if you really want to know more about the adventures of Beren and Lúthien, find out exactly what type of entity Sauron is, or learn who is that Elbereth who keeps getting mentioned. (It's also a great read on its own.) It's hardly essential, although it does enhance the enjoyment. The Unfinished Tales does have some information relating more to the present of LotR, but it's hardly crucial. For example, it turns out Tolkien had given thought to the military organization of Rohan, but it just doesn't matter very much at all to the actual narrative.

LotR can be read and enjoyed without paying deep attention. The trouble comes when someone doesn't pay attention and then complains that things don't make sense. I for one think LotR wouldn't have been improved by making sure to include enough infodumps that all the vaguely relevant details are explained however many times the least attentive reader needs it to sink in. I think Tolkien let the information seep through well enough as it is.

That makes sense. I guess I would like to know more of the background of Middle Earth, but many people seem to think that The Silmarillion is a very dry read. What type of entity is Suaron? As I have stated before, I am not normally an actionmonger, but I really enjoyed the second two books and really struggled to complete The Fellowship.

[wolverine]

As for the movies:

I hated Faramir's change of character and actions in the movie. It seemed like it was added so that Frodo's plotline would have more of a twist and feeling of everyone is against them.

I did not like the fact that Gimli and Legolas went with Aragorn to seek the Oathbreakers. From the books it seemed like something Aragorn HAD to do on his own.

For some reason I also did not like the exclusion of Elrond's son(s).

[Errant Bard]

What type of entity is Suaron?

A (fallen) Maiar, a sub-Valar, one of the guys who followed Melkor. I think Luthien and Finwe outbadassed him with bare hands. If I remember correctly.

Wait, can someone who didn't the Simarillion understand that?

[wolverine]

A (fallen) Maiar, a sub-Valar, one of the guys who followed Melkor. I think Luthien and Finwe outbadassed him with bare hands. If I remember correctly.

Wait, can someone who didn't the Simarillion understand that?

Ummm....NO :bow:

[Vethnar]

That makes sense. I guess I would like to know more of the background of Middle Earth, but many people seem to think that The Silmarillion is a very dry read.

I do not -- But then I always loved reading history books, too.

The easiest way to decide whether you are likely to like The Silmarillion is what you thought about the appendices in LotR. If you read and enjoyed the appendices, you will probably love the Silmarillion.

What type of entity is Suaron?

He is an ainu, a being roughly corresponding to the angels of Christian mythology or the gods of Greek or Norse mythology. The ainur were created by Eru (God) before he created the universe, and most of them remain with him outside the universe. However, some among them entered the universe to help Eru build Arda (the Earth) as a home for the elves and humans. Some of the ainur later rebelled against Eru: Sauron is one of those.

The other ainur we encounter in LotR are Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast, the Balrog. Some people also believe that Tom Bombadil was an ainu.

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

Ummm....NO :bow:

That means he is for all intents and purposes a fallen angel - a second rate angel (the most powerful are called Valar) - but still an entity of entirely different class than physical beings like elves and men.

[Eurytus]

Bombadil can be the anti-Morgoth for all I care, he still doesn't have an impact on the story of LotR or to the Middle-Earth as a whole. The Arnorian swords were still in the movie, only they were given to the hobbits by Aragorn. Which is a change, yes, but it makes sense in the context of both the movie and of Middle-Earth as a whole. The change with the elves in Helm's Deep does not, because by the time of the events in LotR they are tired by millenia after millenia of fights against evil and they just don't have the strenght anymore. The War of the Ring was fought by men, not elves.

Thanks for confirming my earlier suspicion that, unlike what you claimed, changes to what Tolkien wrote do not bother you. Only changes that you don't agree with.

And Elves did fight in the War of the Ring. Quite categorically so.

[Eurytus]

Someone asked earlier for a way to get rid of the great green goo of death... the Elves are the grey company and escort Aragorn. They and the dead defeat the Corsairs who were fighting the reserves of Gondor. Aragorn releases the dead and the Elves and Gondor reserves sail to Pelennor and save the day.

That would have added at least a half hour of screen time to make it worthwhile. There simply wasn't that available. When people say "that could be easily gotten by cutting down on Frodo & Sam or whatever". Not really. Far less can be pruned than you think.

[Shryke]

The Elves at Helm's Deep was to show that the Elves weren't just sitting around shitting in the woods while Men (and a dwarf) were fighting for their lives.

In the book, of course, that's happening elsewhere, but a movie needs to be more focused, shorter and more self-contained. And also make sense to people who will never and have never read the book. Hence, Elves at Helm's Deep.

[Slurktan]

The Elves at Helm's Deep was to show that the Elves weren't just sitting around shitting in the woods while Men (and a dwarf) were fighting for their lives.

In the book, of course, that's happening elsewhere, but a movie needs to be more focused, shorter and more self-contained. And also make sense to people who will never and have never read the book. Hence, Elves at Helm's Deep.

I get that the Elves needed to be shown doing something in the movies, I just don't get why at Helm's Deep. Pointless and stupid.

[alguien]

A (fallen) Maiar, a sub-Valar, one of the guys who followed Melkor. I think Luthien and Finwe outbadassed him with bare hands. If I remember correctly.

Wait, can someone who didn't the Simarillion understand that?

I'm picking up what you're laying down.

I'm trying to remember the details of the confrontation. I know Sauron captured Beren's band and beat Finrod Felagund in a magic duel of songs. I know Beren was trapped, with Finrod I believe, but then Luthien punked Morgoth and his entire court by putting them to sleep with her own song. Or were those two separate incidents? I just can't remember the full details.

But yeah, Sauron and Gandalf were both Maiar, I thought. Gandalf was known as Olorin whilst Sauron was tempted into evil by Melkor.

One of my favorite fights in the Simarillion was between Fingolfin and Melkor. I saw Ted Nasmith's attempt to depict this, and though the guy is an unbelievable Tolkien artist, there I thought he missed the mark.

[AverageGuy]

but still an entity of entirely different class than physical beings like elves and men.

Pff. Tell that to Jacob.

[Eurytus]

I get that the Elves needed to be shown doing something in the movies, I just don't get why at Helm's Deep. Pointless and stupid.

Showing them anywhere would have been a change. Unless you were planning they should cut away during the climax to show some totally unrelated fighting?

So what's wrong with the change they chose?

[Errant Bard]

I'm trying to remember the details of the confrontation. I know Sauron captured Beren's band and beat Finrod Felagund in a magic duel of songs. I know Beren was trapped, with Finrod I believe, but then Luthien punked Morgoth and his entire court by putting them to sleep with her own song. Or were those two separate incidents? I just can't remember the full details.

Separate incidents. Luthien put Morgoth to sleep so Beren could steal the silmarils.

[Seventh Pup]

Honestly I think it is hard to compare Martin to Tolkien for many reasons. Not least of which is that Martin hasn't finished his story yet. For me the magic of LotR is not that it starts brilliantly (I had a hard time with the beginning of FotR) but that the story builds well, and the ending is the best I've read. When you judge Tolkien you judge him for his ability to tell a whole story. When you judge Martin you are judging his ability to tell the beginning of a story. Beginnings I think and less satisfying then endings. When Martin finishes his story (if he finishes) then I think then it will be time for a comparison. But right now it is premature.

I will say that when AFfC came out I went to a book signing. Martin got asked if minded being compared to Tolkien. He said something to the effect of "Mind?! I'm honored!" Which makes think competition between the two is misplaced.