ASOIAF vs LOTR

[Slurktan]

Showing them anywhere would have been a change. Unless you were planning they should cut away during the climax to show some totally unrelated fighting?

So what's wrong with the change they chose?

I told you already earlier in the thread. In movies or books the Elves have no connection to Rohan. They do have a connection to Gondor. Gondor needs help more than Rohan. Ergo the Elves should have gone to Gondor. As I said, make them the grey company and you can eliminate the green blob of death.

[alguien]

Separate incidents. Luthien put Morgoth to sleep so Beren could steal the silmarils.

Right you are. But wasn't that uber-dog Huan involved with the defeat of Sauron in his tower?

[Eurytus]

I told you already earlier in the thread. In movies or books the Elves have no connection to Rohan. They do have a connection to Gondor. Gondor needs help more than Rohan. Ergo the Elves should have gone to Gondor. As I said, make them the grey company and you can eliminate the green blob of death.

In which case you would have had fanboys bemoaning not seeing the Army of the Dead. Following the books plot, i.e. not showing them doing anything, would not go down well. If you make a big thing about Aragorn calling upon them (which it is given that its the first categorical use of his position as the heir of Elendil) then you have to show what they do. Audiences would expect no less.

Though its obvious that Jackson could have handled them way better.

[Happy Ent]

Though its obvious that Jackson could have handled them way better.

The only problem was that Pirates had done the exact same ghosts just a wee bit earlier, without WETA knowing it. Otherwise Jackson’s ghosts would have been lauded as the greatest thing since, well, Gollum.

[Eurytus]

The only problem was that Pirates had done the exact same ghosts just a wee bit earlier, without WETA knowing it. Otherwise Jackson’s ghosts would have been lauded as the greatest thing since, well, Gollum.

I thought that up close the visual look of the army of the dead was fine. It was the distance views of them as a horde that was the problem. Along with bizarre decisions like the swarming up Mumakil and the walls of Minas Tirith. I would have preferred to see them clearly killing by fear alone and avoiding appearing as some sort of flood.

Its even more of a pity because it follows so quickly after the simply fanstastic charge of the Rohirrim and then their battle against the Mumakil.

Incidentally the extended edition includes a scene probably as bad as Aragorn's near death experience if not worse in the avalanche of skulls scene. It made no sense whatsoever and I couldn't really work out what Jackson was playing at with it.

[Jerol]

I think it is interesting that the ONLY places I have ever seen where there is bitching about the quality of the LOTR books or films are fantasy forums like this one. And most of the time it's either fanboys carping about Jackson not adhering to the canon or young turks who want to show their bones by trashing a classic of the genre when it's really because they lack historical perspective on how important these books really were and are. As Shatner once said, "get a life".

[Shryke]

Way to dismiss those who don't like LOTR with your dumb blanket statements.

Also, "important to the genre" doesn't always mean good. And it most DEFINITELY doesn't mean "without flaws".

[Eurytus]

What he said is perfectly true. You don't get anywhere near the moaning at mainstream film sites, even geek film sites, that you get hear. And that's because people who love literature first often consider the text inviolate.

Oh, and films that sit in the upper echelons of the IMDB top films list are rarely not good.

[Shryke]

What he said is perfectly true. You don't get anywhere near the moaning at mainstream film sites, even geek film sites, that you get hear. And that's because people who love literature first often consider the text inviolate.

And this idea is complete and utter bullshit. LOTR is not a perfect work, nor "the best work ever" and certainly not inviolate.

[Eurytus]

And this idea is complete and utter bullshit. LOTR is not a perfect work, nor "the best work ever" and certainly not inviolate.

If you cared to read the very thread you're posting in rather than engaging operation kneejerk you would note two things;

1. I did not say I considered it perfect OR inviolate

2. People in this thread have been criticizing Jackson for making ANY changes to Tolkien's story implying very strongly that they consider it indeed inviolate.

[Shryke]

If you cared to read the very thread you're posting in rather than engaging operation kneejerk you would note two things;

1. I did not say I considered it perfect OR inviolate

2. People in this thread have been criticizing Jackson for making ANY changes to Tolkien's story implying very strongly that they consider it indeed inviolate.

Um, ok. What does that have to do with my point?

You said "Many people consider the text inviolate" and I said that this attitude is a dumb one.

[Slynt]

Ok I have been reading most of this thread now, and I have to say:

- (Many of) you underrate "A Song of Ice and Fire"! I have re-read this series nine times, and I do not tire of it. It is just as magical now as it was the first time, even more so. I don't understand the recurring argument that "ASOIAF" will not have the staying power of "LOTR". Of course, times change, and there is much more competition now, and yadayada but to me at least the first three ASOIAF books are perfection and I can read and re-read them happily without getting bored.

I do re-read LOTR as well, I guess I have read it from start to finish five or six times, and I love Tolkien's exposition, but really, ASOIAF is hands down the most attractive text to me, and that is, of course, entirely subjective.

Just want to say that it's a bit early to doubt ASOIAF's staying power. It fucking rocks my brain.

[sologdin]

putting them to sleep with her own song

luthien is the reigning champion of beleriand idol, as she garnered the most votes in her competitions against sauron, morgoth, and, most importantly, mandos.

asoiaf is great, but it doesn't have any fan-based cantation competitions, so it can suck on it.

[Shryke]

asoiaf is great, but it doesn't have any fan-based cantation competitions

ASOIAF wins hands down then.

[El-ahrairah]

And this idea is complete and utter bullshit. LOTR is not a perfect work, nor "the best work ever" and certainly not inviolate.

No, not the best ever. But I do think it the best of the 20th Century. And ASOIAF has potential to be the best (shifting timelines a little) of the 21st.

[polishgenius]

I think it is interesting that the ONLY places I have ever seen where there is bitching about the quality of the LOTR books or films are fantasy forums like this one. And most of the time it's either fanboys carping about Jackson not adhering to the canon or young turks who want to show their bones by trashing a classic of the genre when it's really because they lack historical perspective on how important these books really were and are. As Shatner once said, "get a life".

Some fans of the books found the changes made either unnecessary or poorly executed, and are quite within our rights to say so.

Some people don't let historical perspective get in the way of the fact that (although I am a fan of the books myself) it's not perfection, and can be improved upon. Also, quite simply, the style of the book is of its time and won't appeal to a lot of modern readers, particularly in the objective manner of its narrative (most books nowadays being subjective) which can make it seem dry at times.

Of course there are people who fit into those categories you mentioned, but not every criticism of either work should be dismissed as carping.

[Jacen]

LOTR is certainly not perfect, but I think I'll have to wait and see the end (if there is one) of ASOIAF to declare a winner.

IF ASOIAF is never completed, than it cannot beat LOTR in my opinion.

And really the two series are quite different to my mind. Bakker's series is alot more comparable to LOTR than Martin's.

[The Marquis de Leech]

LOTR is not a perfect work, nor "the best work ever"

Of course not. That's The Silmarillion.

[Larry.]

I'm sorry, but the "perfect book" has to be The Eye of Argon.

Or at the very least, giving a bound copy of it to a girl has certainly "excited" her quite a bit...

[The Pita]

Oh god, I can't wait for the day someone buys me a copy of it. It'll be awesome.