hadaad Posted September 15, 2008 Share Posted September 15, 2008 I felt and still feel that The Eye of The World holds up better than any other book I've re-read. Usually the flaws in the writing grate at me. It was especially hard to get into Eddings, Goodkind and, sadly, Martin on re-read. I get caught up in the Two Rivers so easily when I re-read this book. I find that I enjoy a bunch of the other books in this series (The Great Hunt, Path of Daggers and Fires of Heaven) a lot more than I did on their first reading too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kuenjato Posted September 15, 2008 Share Posted September 15, 2008 I tried to re-read Eye of the World two or three years ago. And almost immediately noted the braid-tugging and general relationship spats that plagued the series later on. I think the middle of this novel -- once the group gets seperated -- is where RJ begins to shine as a storyteller. And yes, the LOTR borrowing/homage is extremely obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DemonKing Posted September 16, 2008 Share Posted September 16, 2008 I only read Eye of the World (which I started before Jordan died and bought only because it was $5) and I don't plan on reading anything else in the series. There was nothing in it that grabbed me - the characters weren't appealling at all, the writing stumbling and I've long grown out of "fantasy world threatened by the dark lord" storylines. I read to the end to make sure that I wasn't missing anything and considering the general consensus that the first few books in the series are the best I dread to think what the later books are like. The fact that Jordan died shortly after I finished book 1 without completing the series was more proof that I've made the right decision. Once you've read Martin and other stuff out there like Abercrombie and Bakker you can't go back to a lousy LOTOR ripoff (and I hated the LOTOR books in the first place). Also, would you really want to start a series where you *know* the author died before he could finish it (at least with Martin we still have hope!)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted September 16, 2008 Share Posted September 16, 2008 I wouldn't describe Wheel of Time as a LoTR rip off. The first book maybe, but the series as a whole? Not at all. And I'm tired of people saying Martin is the be all and end all of fantasy. I mean yeah he's a really good writer, one of my favourites, but the plot of a Song of Ice and Fire isn't really all that terribly complicated. It takes a few twists and turns and has a higher body count then a lot of other books but on the whole it has a fairly standard plot and pace. Evil creatures are invading but all the nations are too busy squabbling amongst each other to notice. In fact, phrased like that, it could be said A Song of Ice and Fire is a Wheel of Time knock off, since in essence that is the plot of Wheel of Time as well. If it weren't for Jordan I can safely say High Fantasy wouldn't have made as powerful resurgence as it did. He really brought it back in terms of profitability for publishers, opening doors for other fantasy authors, and in terms of creativity within the realm of fantasy itself. He was far from the best writer in the world that's true, but it would be far too simplistic to call him just a Tolkien rip off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galactus Posted September 16, 2008 Share Posted September 16, 2008 [quote name='DemonKing' post='1519531' date='Sep 16 2008, 08.00']I only read Eye of the World (which I started before Jordan died and bought only because it was $5) and I don't plan on reading anything else in the series. There was nothing in it that grabbed me - the characters weren't appealling at all, the writing stumbling and I've long grown out of "fantasy world threatened by the dark lord" storylines. I read to the end to make sure that I wasn't missing anything and considering the general consensus that the first few books in the series are the best I dread to think what the later books are like. The fact that Jordan died shortly after I finished book 1 without completing the series was more proof that I've made the right decision. Once you've read Martin and other stuff out there like Abercrombie and Bakker you can't go back to a lousy LOTOR ripoff (and I hated the LOTOR books in the first place). Also, would you really want to start a series where you *know* the author died before he could finish it (at least with Martin we still have hope!)?[/quote] Mind, EOTW is very.... Different, from the other books. Book 2 and 3 are huge leaps in quality. EOTW is very much standard fantasy, it's in the latr books that he starts developing his central themes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padraig Posted September 16, 2008 Share Posted September 16, 2008 [quote name='Ouroboros' post='1519636' date='Sep 16 2008, 09.47']And I'm tired of people saying Martin is the be all and end all of fantasy.[/quote] It is rather appalling. Way too many aSoIaF fans on this board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slurktan Posted September 16, 2008 Share Posted September 16, 2008 [quote name='DemonKing' post='1519531' date='Sep 16 2008, 02.00']There was nothing in it that grabbed me - the characters weren't appealling at all, the writing stumbling and I've long grown out of "fantasy world threatened by the dark lord" storylines. Once you've read Martin and other stuff out there like Abercrombie and Bakker you can't go back to a lousy LOTOR ripoff (and I hated the LOTOR books in the first place).[/quote] I'm curious as to why then you haven't outgrown Martin and Bakker then. Bakker certainly has it with the No-God and the coming apocalypse and Martin does as well although the Others don't have a identified 'leader' as of yet. Maybe they are like the Borg. Regardless those still have the *evil forces of evil* coming to destroy the world that our "heroes" need to rescue it from. so why haven't you scorned them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cseresz Posted September 16, 2008 Share Posted September 16, 2008 [quote name='DemonKing' post='1519531' date='Sep 16 2008, 08.00']Also, would you really want to start a series where you *know* the author died before he could finish it (at least with Martin we still have hope!)?[/quote] [b]It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end.[/b] :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kcf Posted September 16, 2008 Share Posted September 16, 2008 [quote name='DemonKing' post='1519531' date='Sep 15 2008, 23.00']Also, would you really want to start a series where you *know* the author died before he could finish it (at least with Martin we still have hope!)?[/quote] Well, I think that you can really miss out with this sort of attitude. Forgetting RJ for the moment (though I have every confidence that Sanderson will do a great job at finishing things), the Gorgemghast novels by Mervyn Peake were unfinished due to authors death, and those novels are still regarded as some of the best epic fantasy out there, even decades later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marwyn Posted September 16, 2008 Share Posted September 16, 2008 [quote name='cseresz' post='1520012' date='Sep 16 2008, 17.29'][b]It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end.[/b] :)[/quote] Great point. And DemonKing, that was a pretty tasteless comment. Anyway, as you may have deducted already WoT is a series where opinions are really divided. Some people love and some people hate it. I'm one of those people who finds himself secretly looking forward to the new (and last) book in the series. I did feel the first part was a LotR - ripoff, but it does get better after that. Book 2-6 are especially good (Lord of Chaos is my favourite, I think). It is however epic fantasy in it's biggest form: there is dozens and dozens of characters and plot threads that you need to keep track of, and it's really hard to remember it all. RJ is also noted for his extremely descriptive style, which in the latter books does indeed translate into 5 pages of description about someone's clothes. So there's a lot of flaws but also a lot of good things about the book: if you persist you'll be rewarded with a story that I found very engrossing and that's just good overall. If you're thinking about starting the series but not sure whether you should, I'd say give it a try and see if it suits you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted September 16, 2008 Share Posted September 16, 2008 [quote name='Padraig' post='1519790' date='Sep 16 2008, 09.03']It is rather appalling. Way too many aSoIaF fans on this board.[/quote] I'm just sick of people saying he's the greatest fantasy writer of all time, and that he some how 'transcends' the genre. Its pure bull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted September 16, 2008 Share Posted September 16, 2008 It's opinion. Just like what you're serving. Lighten up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 [quote name='Ouroboros' post='1520909' date='Sep 17 2008, 00.07']I'm just sick of people saying he's the greatest fantasy writer of all time, and that he some how 'transcends' the genre. Its pure bull.[/quote] In all fairness, I don't think most people would say this. I think most people might say he's a very good author, maybe their favourite, but the only people likely to say he is the Best Author Evaaaar are the young and overly-enthusiastic. I can't condemn them for that. I wince that I once declared [i]The Shadow Rising[/i] to be better than [i]Lord of the Rings[/i]. On the reread, not so much. I'm not sure about the 'transcending' thing either. I mean, yeah, he brought in a lot of people who didn't read fantasy, such as historical fiction fans and SF fans of his earlier work, but that would be a grandiose way of putting it. Jordan and Rowling have a lot of fans from outside the genre as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 [quote name='Ran' post='1520951' date='Sep 16 2008, 19.47']It's opinion. Just like what you're serving. Lighten up.[/quote] I know that, and I'm not really that annoyed, I'm just tired of people saying fantasy sucks except A Song of Ice and Fire, and that they've never read any fantasy other than Martin anyway, because other fantasy isn't 'worth reading'. I was actually surprised by the number of people on this forum who hold similar opinions, but then that's to be expected from any fandom that's devoted to a single series. Saying that I've just started the Great Hunt and I'd say its this story that really starts to show the change in Jordan's style. The plot starts moving away from the usual fantasy cliches and the characters start to develop beyond the obvious archetypes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DemonKing Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 [quote name='Ouroboros' post='1519636' date='Sep 16 2008, 18.47']I mean yeah he's a really good writer, one of my favourites, but the plot of a Song of Ice and Fire isn't really all that terribly complicated.[/quote] Ummm...do you know how many threads and characters there are to keep track of...I'm pretty sure why Martin's output has slowed down since the first 3 books is that he's trying to keep it all together and coherant and finding it increasingly difficult! If ASOIAF isn't complicated - I'd like to see a book that is... [quote]I'm curious as to why then you haven't outgrown Martin and Bakker then. Bakker certainly has it with the No-God and the coming apocalypse and Martin does as well although the Others don't have a identified 'leader' as of yet. Maybe they are like the Borg. Regardless those still have the *evil forces of evil* coming to destroy the world that our "heroes" need to rescue it from. so why haven't you scorned them?[/quote] I don't see the comparison between say The Others/No-God and the Dark Lords in WoT or LOTOR - the Others are very much peripheral to the ongoing storyline and are in no way the focus for most of the characters and most of the books. Also if you think the "small band of heroes from a rural village manage to bring down the dark lord" pastiche was the main focus of Bakker's books, you obviously had a different "reading" to me... [quote][b]It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end.[/b] Great point. And DemonKing, that was a pretty tasteless comment[/quote]. I don't think it's tasteless to say that if readers are prepared to buy long sprawling multi-volume epics started by middle-aged writers they have to accept that there is a chance they might never see the writer's vision realised. Now with Martin I'm prepared to accept that risk as the journey has definitely been awesome but based on my reading of Eye of the World I didn't think it was worth starting a series that, as it turned out, never got finished. Also, 12 books I believe qualifies as "milking it"...particularly as most readers have stated that in general the quality falls off markedly after the first 6 books...and if the first book doesn't grab you, I don't think the time commitment to continue with such a series is worthwhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 [quote name='DemonKing' post='1520999' date='Sep 16 2008, 19.25']Ummm...do you know how many threads and characters there are to keep track of...I'm pretty sure why Martin's output has slowed down since the first 3 books is that he's trying to keep it all together and coherant and finding it increasingly difficult! If ASOIAF isn't complicated - I'd like to see a book that is...[/quote] Just keep reading Wheel of Time and you'll begin to understand the meaning of the word 'complicated'. The amount of plotting that goes on behind the scenes, in full view of the reader and just off to the side can be a bit boggling sometimes. And the amount of characters is staggering. If Wheel of Time has one major flaw it is that its too complicated, bloated to an extreme in terms of plots, subplots and characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isabel Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 [quote name='DemonKing' post='1520999' date='Sep 17 2008, 02.25']I don't think it's tasteless to say that if readers are prepared to buy long sprawling multi-volume epics started by middle-aged writers they have to accept that there is a chance they might never see the writer's vision realised.[/quote] I don't know if you realize it, but even when RJ was really sick he kept on writing and dictating. A few days before he passed away he also dictated a lot of things about the wheel of time world that were previous unknown. RJ basicly wrote the beginning, ending, a few scenes in between and he basicly made an outline for the last book. The last book will be written. *Jordan wrote the last scene and wrote // dictated a lot of the ending.* The ending will be Jordan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atreides Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 [quote name='Ouroboros' post='1519636' date='Sep 16 2008, 04.47']I wouldn't describe Wheel of Time as a LoTR rip off. The first book maybe, but the series as a whole? Not at all. And I'm tired of people saying Martin is the be all and end all of fantasy. I mean yeah he's a really good writer, one of my favourites, but the plot of a Song of Ice and Fire isn't really all that terribly complicated. It takes a few twists and turns and has a higher body count then a lot of other books but on the whole it has a fairly standard plot and pace. Evil creatures are invading but all the nations are too busy squabbling amongst each other to notice. In fact, phrased like that, it could be said A Song of Ice and Fire is a Wheel of Time knock off, since in essence that is the plot of Wheel of Time as well. If it weren't for Jordan I can safely say High Fantasy wouldn't have made as powerful resurgence as it did. He really brought it back in terms of profitability for publishers, opening doors for other fantasy authors, and in terms of creativity within the realm of fantasy itself. He was far from the best writer in the world that's true, but it would be far too simplistic to call him just a Tolkien rip off.[/quote] I agree. SoIaF and WoT share many similar plots, only Martin executes things better (like the politics). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padraig Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 [quote name='Werthead' post='1520991' date='Sep 17 2008, 01.18']I wince that I once declared [i]The Shadow Rising[/i] to be better than [i]Lord of the Rings[/i]. On the reread, not so much.[/quote] :P [quote]I was actually surprised by the number of people on this forum who hold similar opinions, but then that's to be expected from any fandom that's devoted to a single series.[/quote] Glad you realised that. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gigei Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 I think it's been said that Jordan deliberately wrote the EotW veeery similar to LotR so that fantasy fans would get sucked in by familiar things. *rolls eyes* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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