Footyball! II

[cteresa]

[quote name='The Iceman of the North' post='1502814' date='Sep 2 2008, 12.50']Has there ever been a player where this has been an issue? He's hardly the first "short, skinny southerner" to play in England.

The playing style in the EPL might be an adjustment though.[/quote]


Going to a northern dark cold place can be mentally tough for people used to stuff as ocasional sunlight in the month of December. On any profession. Football brings added stress and complications ( and extra rewards also) but for example the russian league, which is so so wealthy, is notoriously almost impossible for players to adapt long term.

I can think of some southern players which arrive in English football and are brilliant for a bit, and then become more well, less impressive as winter arrives or the novelty wears off. Reyes would be a classical example ( well, he can not complain of the weather here, though I am sure he will find something to complain about). Elano last year maybe? Maybe Veron? Failure for Manchester United, brilliant every where else.

I am not sure how many brazillians or even argentinians have truly worked out great in England - ignoring the last couple seasons ( tevez being the prime example of a change in that, maybe. Julio Baptista? ). This and last season there were a lot more south americans in English football. BTW a counterargument I got to present, their relative scarcity, compared to a few other european leagues, might also have to do with the work permits.

Adaptation is a matter of mental toughness - and I think even those who do have it, might be fed up after a few years ( say Cristiano Ronaldo might think he has served his dues through 5 or 6 Manchester winters). I don´t know how "together" and stable Robinho is, my guess is not that much - Calderon is saying that Robinho was "physically crying" begging to leave Spain. Even if one does not believe Calderon ( and it might be true. rumors of truly bad vibes between robinho and raul and his gang) , the whole press conference thing, the way he was dangling transfers while at santos, the stories of him jumping out of windows to avoid press and people, it´s all peculiar. And his pride might be touchy-feely, he was seen as the new Pelé, he never quite reached the expectations piled upon him, if he is playing at manchester City on the UEFA cup and their results are not brilliant, I am not sure if he has the motivation to keep giving his best and try to guide them on his own. Tevez at West Ham, hein, but Tevez is one very tough cookie which had been tested already in a foreign to him league.

[Isis]

[quote name='DVD ROTS' post='1502429' date='Sep 2 2008, 02.25']That sucks, at least until Drogba comes back. Apparently he played some with the reserves squad today, had an assist vs. the Arsenal reserves. We could really use him, I have little-to-no faith in Anelka at all. Drogba can be an ass, but he tries much of the time. Anelka, not so much. And some firepower up front would be really useful.[/quote]I don't think that either of them would get into a top ten of hard working players but I think Anelka has improved in that respect as he's got older. Drogba really is the classic, 'I will play when I feel like playing' type. I'm trying to think of a perfect example but the closest I get atm is Cantona.

[Jon AS]

This whole Robinho deal is hilarious, though a big part of the hilarity comes from one suddenly super-rich club outbidding another one.

What I just remembered: didn't Chelsea start selling Robinho shirts last week already? Serves them right. :lol:

Not a lot of excitement in the German transfer market, though Hertha BSC underlined there ambitions of mediocrity by signing the second best Ukrainian striker, Andryi Voronin. Too bad for them there is such a huge gap between number 1 and 2 on this scale, I guess.

[cteresa]

[quote name='The Inquisitor' post='1502812' date='Sep 2 2008, 12.50']-I like Deco both and Robinho, but the market values more the latter. Considering how Barça were keen on putting him elsewhere and that he is an old player. But still, ceteris paribus, Robinho in monetary terms >>>> Deco.[/quote]

oh, of course - but it is a compliment for you guys actually. So my opinion is you guys did a great deal, and Chelsea also. Barcelona not so much. Deco is already 31 I think. Robinho is some 6 years younger. Deco is a smidgeon taller and i would say a lot harder mentally ( he moved upwards from club to club) and also physically. Deco is more stable, more influential tactically and a double CL winner, 10 million was a great price. and to chelsea! the club which is famous for being loose with money...

[quote name='The Inquisitor' post='1502812' date='Sep 2 2008, 12.50']-Money is not a problem for us. Yes it sounds horrible, but we have around a 100M€ budget for transfers only. The bloody asshole of Calderon was more than willing to splash 70-80M€ for CR.[/quote]

I would argue that it is a problem, if no matter how large a budget, the offer has to be ridiculously overpriced to convince a club to sell. and nobody wants to sell their best players. That was how you got the galacticos.

BTW talking of money, I wonder how long Manchester City will have free spending budget. Abramovich is one guy, earned ( ah. whatever) his fortune himself and can do whatever he wants with it. Manchester City was bought by a "abu dabi" royal family consortium, which is not at all clear to me how is managed, or how many people ( gulf royal families usually are hundreds and hundreds of people. some of them with serious dior couture addictions. that can be almost as pricy as football. sounds fun also) will have an input on how much money manchester city can "sensibly" pay. Billions of euros owned together by hundreds of people, well, it might not stretch that far.

And think of it, the english teams with the millionaires behind telling them to spend spend spend ( and raising prices of course). But usually, sensibly the debts remain with the entity which is the club, and we do not know where it is all going. It might be as good an idea as all that. And at least the club we support can not be sold or owned or passed, our clubs at least are democracies ( with all their failings!)

[cteresa]

[quote name='Jon AS' post='1502876' date='Sep 2 2008, 14.04']Not a lot of excitement in the German transfer market, though Hertha BSC underlined there ambitions of mediocrity by signing the second best Ukrainian striker, Andryi Voronin. Too bad for them there is such a huge gap between number 1 and 2 on this scale, I guess.[/quote]

If by number 1 you mean the obvious one, they were both equally crap in England! ( or maybe not?)

[cteresa]

BTW just checked, and oh this is brilliant. The next game of Manchester City is against Chelsea at home. I lurve I lurve it. I want to watch it! Who scripts these things anyway? :)

[Calibandar]

[quote]Has there ever been a player where this has been an issue? He's hardly the first "short, skinny southerner" to play in England.[/quote]

Icemand, yes, there have been Brazilian or other Latin Americans where this has been a problem.

Also, looking at our own league here in the Netherlands, it has been a problem here as well. And not surprising at all, given the enormous climate differences between Brazil on the one hand and Holland and England on the hand. Winters here are not as cold as they used to be due to global warming but it's still very unpleasant for those used to tropical climates. These guys are wearing gloves in October already.

[The Iceman of the North]

Seems like Keegan's second spell at Newcastle is drawing to an end.

[Paddy]

Yup, he's gone.
My God, what a car crash that club are.
Do they have no self-respect?

[cteresa]

This is unspeakably good stuff, but the portuguese and british press seem to be all over the new owners of manchester City are talking of offering 200 million euros for Cristiano Ronaldo this January season. Oh yeah, and Torres and Fabregas as well. I think somebody has been playing too many of those football manager computer games maybe. I am actually bothering to feel sorry for Robinho here. Ah, also he wants at least 18 new players - excellent way to motivate your current squad and showing how much you support your own players, hein? I am sure they will be pretty motivated to grind results all the way till January hein..

BTW, just a question, gulf state royalty - don´t associating too much with extreme levels of conspicuous spending ( say robinho..) on imoralities like football which lead to gambling and footballers whoring and drinking a lot, might cause a smidgeon of an image problem with possible hardliners in their own country?

[Isis]

[quote name='Paddy' post='1503073' date='Sep 2 2008, 16.45']Yup, he's gone.
My God, what a car crash that club are.
Do they have no self-respect?[/quote] :lol:

All this off-the-pitch drama in the PL is cracking me up. Football hasn't amused me this much in ages.

[Black Wizard]

[quote name='The Iceman of the North' post='1502932' date='Sep 2 2008, 14.58']Seems like Keegan's second spell at Newcastle is drawing to an end.[/quote]
That's hilarious.



I can't wait to see Pavulychenko play in the Premiership. He was so entertaining in the Euros with his erratic finishing.

[MercenaryChef]

for fuck's sake. how can my newcastle boys ever really be competitive when we change managers and half our squad each year? there is an owner who is itching to dump the club, who does not care about winning, just does not want to spend anymore money.

routinely the toon sell out each home match. their fans are rabid. but, still the board does not want to make the investment in time and money to try to bring some glory back to the club. i am truly disgusted.

if there is a god a arab oil magnate will sweep in buy up the club from that ass ashley and dump the money and commitment needed to allow newcastle to be the team we want it to be.

sorry, kevin.

[Maltaran]

As well as Robinho's transfer and the Berbatov bid, City apparently also made bids for David Villa and Mario Gomez. It would seem that transfer cash is not going to be an issue here.

[Padraig]

[quote name='cteresa' post='1503155' date='Sep 2 2008, 17.43']BTW, just a question, gulf state royalty - don´t associating too much with extreme levels of conspicuous spending ( say robinho..) on imoralities like football which lead to gambling and footballers whoring and drinking a lot, might cause a smidgeon of an image problem with possible hardliners in their own country?[/quote]
Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Sharjah and the other Emirates are known for their extreme levels of conspicuous spending. Another group tried to buy Liverpool not so long ago.

And football is big in most of the Middle Eastern countries, so no issue with the game itself.

[cteresa]

[quote name='Maltaran' post='1503277' date='Sep 2 2008, 19.16']As well as Robinho's transfer and the Berbatov bid, City apparently also made bids for David Villa and Mario Gomez. It would seem that transfer cash is not going to be an issue here.[/quote]

But they only got one of those, and one which was totally desperate to leave his club and where maybe, possibly, from some points of view, the club might have enjoyed sending him there as punishment.

They might have tons of readily available money, and they might spend gazillions on player salaries, but at the moment, I don´t think they have the pull to bring top players on their prime ( or top players in their prime which are not surplus to team needs and have been total and complete brats) because those want to win titles, to play european matches on wednesdays in April ( preferrably May), to get recognized as worlds best ( it probably takes some egomania to actually be that good. Robinho is always saying he wants to be worlds best, always..). In a way is a vicious cycle, if they already had great players and a manager and a few recent trophies, other players might be willing to take the jump for money. But a few will have to be first for others to come also, instead of thinking of the risk they are throwing away their career for some short term money.

Though, who knows, one similar case I know, even if it was way before my time, was Maradona from barça to Napoli, world record transfer, incredible salary at the time, so on. it sort of worked, though Maradona´s place in history cames from other things also. I don´t think Robinho is Maradona quite, looking more like Denilson to me, but one can hope surely ;)

[Maltaran]

ADUG's stated aim is to get City a top four finish (i.e. CL qualifying spot) within three years, and the bookies are giving pretty short odds on them achieving it (if they do, I suspect it will be at Liverpool's expense). Of course, they haven't won a trophy since 1972, so history is against them.

[cteresa]

[quote name='Maltaran' post='1503502' date='Sep 2 2008, 22.04']ADUG's stated aim is to get City a top four finish (i.e. CL qualifying spot) within three years,[/quote]

I think they can achieve it, didnt Everton do it the year Liverpool won the CL and ended 5th? With a gazillion of money, ending 4th in the next 3 years is not a very high objective. And that is sort of a problem. Can you see them going to Kaká or Cristiano Ronaldo or Messi trying to hire them and putting that as club´s aims? "we predict that by 2011 we might end up 4th or 3rd and qualify for the CL, and we will probably be seeded enough so we avoid the very first qualifying round!" and without being in the CL, some people will not move or move happily.

Btw interesting comparison, the filthy rich russian league. 30 million euros for Danny for example - and ever since 2004 ( they bought like half of Porto´s squad) they spend a lot for a lot of players, they achieved with it 2 UEFA cups, CSKA in 2005 and Zenit in 2008. They got some problems inherently, that it is a hard league for foreign imports from latin lands ( which is where a lot of football players come from) to adapt. England will be easier to adapt a bit. But there is a problem attracting some players, it´ s not the money only, but a chance to win stuff, for footballing glory which for all of us means the CL. to win CL spots or UEFA cups sometimes you need players which will work hard but you do not need superstars - and superstars will only want to come to places where they can shine. and be given loads of money, but money is sort of reinforcement of footballing status, money on its own, accompanied by pity ( say like Beckham) might not be that attractive to a 25 year old ... who does not have Robinho´s problems ;)

What about the manager? He is not well known ( or known at all) here. Mancini is free, Rijkaard also, maybe those names as manager would bring some pull to some foreign players. Say Huntelaar more likely to move to be managed by Rijkaard than Hughes, etc..

[Calibandar]

Teresa

I think you're underestimating the influence of the truly gargantuan cash injection that is going to happen here. You'd never think Robinho would go to Man City either, would you? Yet here they are, a fairly modest midlist team in the EPL, suddenly taken over by some supremely rich Arabs, laying down 40 million and there he is. And they've signed Jo already, plus Mark Hughes as manager who has a great reputation already. They've also brought back Shaun Wright Philips.

All it takes is for Man City to do reasonably well and for the owners to buy a few more really good players and suddenly England has 5 major teams competing for the title. It can go that fast, and there is not better living proof of that than Chelsea. They were a modest side until the Russian bought them and in the space of two years they belonged to the world's best.

It sounds unattractive now because it is hard to imagine that you can just buy a club and by injecting cash you can make them great., But the thing is, you can, and if you have a lot of money to spend, you can do it fast. And Man City isn't going to sound so bad anymore to those foreign stars when they find a team competing with the best and where they can get a 6 million euro per year salary.

[cteresa]

[quote name='Calibandar' post='1503588' date='Sep 2 2008, 23.02']I think you're underestimating the influence of the truly gargantuan cash injection that is going to happen here.[/quote]
Football has seen a few gargantuan cash injections before. Remember Denilson? sort of record breaking at the time. On a couple occasions, conjunction works and magic happens. But it´s not automatic. So I am not holding my breath, but more details later.


[quote name='Calibandar' post='1503588' date='Sep 2 2008, 23.02']You'd never think Robinho would go to Man City either, would you?[/quote]
I was thinking for the last few days ( see above, I think I told you so) that oh yes, he was going someplace. Robinho actually going to Manchester sort of is more revealing to me about Robinho´s position than anything else.


[quote name='Calibandar' post='1503588' date='Sep 2 2008, 23.02']All it takes is for Man City to do reasonably well and for the owners to buy a few more really good players and suddenly England has 5 major teams competing for the title. It can go that fast, and there is not better living proof of that than Chelsea. They were a modest side until the Russian bought them and in the space of two years they belonged to the world's best.[/quote]
I love the wikipedia, and yes btw I had heard of chelsea before abramovich:
[quote]Gullit was replaced by Gianluca Vialli, who led the team to victory in the League Cup and the Cup Winners' Cup in 1998, the FA Cup in 2000 and the UEFA Champions League quarter-finals in 2000. Vialli was sacked in favour of another Italian, Claudio Ranieri, who guided Chelsea to the 2002 FA Cup final and Champions League qualification in 2002–03.

In June 2003, Bates sold Chelsea to Russian billionaire Roman Abramovich for £140 million, completing what was then the biggest-ever sale of an English football club.[/quote]

Not quite the same performances before being bought, I don´t remember Manchester City making any CL quarter finals recently, or qualifying on their own, or winning FA Cups recently. Ok, I am lying, I checked wikipedia and this is just me trying to be diplomatic. They seem more Betis than Chelsea pre Abramovich.

And consider something else - location, Chelsea´s location is really really close to some of the poshest most expensive real estate on Europe. Even Chelsea sounds cool, people ( american presidents even) name their children after that neighbourhood ( or the NY chelsea?). One can walk to Harrods from their stadium in 15 minutes ( ahem, right? briskly I mean, or am I totally confusing London geography?). Manchester, might be harder to make it glamorous.

Another something else which i already mentioned, Abramovich is one guy who has his own money, who can spend it without giving justifications to anybody. A consortium, a trust fund, might have a lot more money, but whoever is making decisions on money spending will have limits also and eventually to justify spending.


[quote name='Calibandar' post='1503588' date='Sep 2 2008, 23.02']It sounds unattractive now because it is hard to imagine that you can just buy a club and by injecting cash you can make them great., But the thing is, you can, and if you have a lot of money to spend, you can do it fast.[/quote]

You can try to do it - if it works or not, we will see. I am dubious. Though the great counterexample is of course Maradona to Napoli.

BTW I don´t have any big problems with it being unattractive. It´s crass yes, but the entertainment potential if it works is brilliant. The whole premiership for me is crass ;) even their bottom clubs got incredible ammounts of money (tv rights deal, i guess) and dare to eye prime talent from much more historical CL ambitious teams. so, my opinion is not about taste, my taste is not particularly shocked, it´s my brain which can´t just buy that PR wholesale without going ORLY.

[quote name='Calibandar' post='1503588' date='Sep 2 2008, 23.02']And Man City isn't going to sound so bad anymore to those foreign stars when they find a team competing with the best and where they can get a 6 million euro per year salary.[/quote]

they will need far more than that to get some people, specially with the pound so weak. kaká I heard was close to the 10-12 ,and some of the chelsea salaries are quite a bit higher also. And it is Chelsea. in London. with a world cup winning manager, and routine CL semifinal presence.

That is just my perspective. Maybe we are seeing a new force on english football. But I am cynical, very cynical, and it is going to take more than one big splash of money on a very unhappy player with inconsistent mental toughness to convince me. New owners always come bringing big speeches and ideas, new stadiums and so on. And the whole speech of this guy, 200 million euros for Cristiano Ronaldo AND Fabregas AND Torres, all I can think, is oh, yeah, we are going to see about that indeed ;) Maybe it will happen. But I am waiting to be convinced.