And yet another Battlestar thread

[Ser Aardvark]

The Oath was one of the best and most intense episodes of the series so Blood on the Scales was something of a disappointment but not surprising really considering to match the intensity would require an even worse and more graphic blood bath. The bad, aside from the mentioned resolution of the crisis in way too neat of a package, was definitely Zarek. The great thing about Zarek in this show was that he was the guy willing to not just push the envelope but to say things people tended to ignore or even pretended not to exist. It was Zarek who implanted the idea of elections in Lee's head that eventually led to fleet wide elections for instance. His last actions, though, were not the acts of the level headed Zarek we knew but a power hungry dictator. Executing the Quorum for no reason, at least not for a reason that was articulated well, ordering Gaeta around like a lackey, etc. The Zarek I think of was the one who held the secret trials after New Caprica but whose defense of which was fantastic and believable. Plus Roslin's speech was pretty lame.

The upsides of the episods, though, was definitely Gaeta. I've been a big fan of Gaeta since the mini-series and, as the show went on, he became the loyal sidekick with a personality. The fact that, like one of my other favorite TV characters Dr. Greene from ER, the writers used him as a whipping boy (stuck in a corrupt administration, nearly getting executed, stuck in two bad romantic relationships, getting his leg blown off) but still kept him still believable and in character during all his setbacks made me love him even more. Gaeta most def. has the title of "break out character" of the series and was ably played Alessandro Juliani. Here's to hoping he comes back in another series sometime soon. The other were the final scenes: both Gaeta and Baltar's talk and the execution scene where Gaeta and Zarek looked at each other and smiled before the moment of truth. It reminded me of the Zarek I had really come to like since the start of the series. and was a great way to end Gaeta's great run.

It's sad to see Gaeta and Zarek go but I knew it was coming after the end of the last episode and with six eps left there isn't that much time to miss them anyway. I wonder who else is going to bite the bullet before all is said and done?

[Guy Kilmore]

[quote name='Ser Aardvark' post='1681708' date='Feb 10 2009, 12.54']The Oath was one of the best and most intense episodes of the series so Blood on the Scales was something of a disappointment but not surprising really considering to match the intensity would require an even worse and more graphic blood bath. The bad, aside from the mentioned resolution of the crisis in way too neat of a package, was definitely Zarek. The great thing about Zarek in this show was that he was the guy willing to not just push the envelope but to say things people tended to ignore or even pretended not to exist. It was Zarek who implanted the idea of elections in Lee's head that eventually led to fleet wide elections for instance. His last actions, though, were not the acts of the level headed Zarek we knew but a power hungry dictator. Executing the Quorum for no reason, at least not for a reason that was articulated well, ordering Gaeta around like a lackey, etc. The Zarek I think of was the one who held the secret trials after New Caprica but whose defense of which was fantastic and believable. Plus Roslin's speech was pretty lame.[/quote]

I do not think Zarek was a power hungery dictator. Zarek was an idealist with a strong pragmatic streak running through him. He saw an opportunity and a need to champion the causes that he felt would better humanity. In his mind Adama and Roslin failed in their leadership and ignored the people, they perpetuated the worst of the old government that he payed a huge cost to fight.

When Gaeta came to Zarek he saw a chance to right this circumstance. Anything that stood in his way was something to be removed for the sake of the greater good, because if it weren't this chance would be lost forever.

I am not saying I approve what Zarek was doing, but I can understand his motivations.

[Brandon Stark]

I think that logic applies right up until the Quorum. When your ideals shift and flow to suit whatever line of thinking sets you up best for personal power, you've lost the claim to idealism.

[Shryke]

Aye, Zarek executed the Quorum for a good reason, which he articulates to Gaeta. It's perfectly understandable.

Zarek has no illusions about what they're doing (which we see with Laird right at the start). This is a rebellion, they are seizing control and people are gonna die. Now, he believes it's for a good cause, and in the best interest of the human race, but still, people are gonna die.

The Quorum rejected his authority. Therefore, they were against him. And they had to be eliminated before they turned completely against him.

[TrackerNeil]

I think it's perfectly believable that Zarek could be both a believer in democracy and a ruthless, power-hungry politician all at once. Human beings have the wondrous ability to hold two diametrically opposed opinions.

[Shryke]

And let's not forget he was in jail originally for blowing up buildings for a good cause.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Tracker,

[quote name='TrackerNeil' post='1681827' date='Feb 10 2009, 15.22']I think it's perfectly believable that Zarek could be both a believer in democracy and a ruthless, power-hungry politician all at once. Human beings have the wondrous ability to hold two diametrically opposed opinions.[/quote]

You know I wouldn't call the human penchant for rationalizing really horrible actions "wonderous." I see it as rather sad.

:/

[Shryke]

Their not rearlly diametrically opposed positions. He sees himself as a populist, remember?

[tzanth]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1681809' date='Feb 10 2009, 12.05']The Quorum rejected his authority. Therefore, they were against him. And they had to be eliminated before they turned completely against him.[/quote]

The Quorum hadn't fully rejected him yet. More importantly, they were a very important symbol for the rest of the fleet, yet were fairly toothless from a military standpoint. Killing them when he did really made no sense. Even if he wanted to get rid of them eventually, it would have been much smarter to string them along until the he had a more secure grasp on the rest of the fleet.

[Shryke]

[quote name='tzanth' post='1681874' date='Feb 10 2009, 15.50'][b]The Quorum hadn't fully rejected him yet.[/b] More importantly, they were a very important symbol for the rest of the fleet, yet were fairly toothless from a military standpoint. Killing them when he did really made no sense. Even if he wanted to get rid of them eventually, it would have been much smarter to string them along until the he had a more secure grasp on the rest of the fleet.[/quote]

Sure they had. They knew what was going on on Galactica. And they deliberately call him "Mr. VICE-President" and tell him he doesn't have the authority to speak to them in that fashion.

That's as bad a rejection as you get in politics without using the word Frak or your fist.

[Guy Kilmore]

[quote name='tzanth' post='1681874' date='Feb 10 2009, 14.50']The Quorum hadn't fully rejected him yet. More importantly, they were a very important symbol for the rest of the fleet, yet were fairly toothless from a military standpoint. Killing them when he did really made no sense. Even if he wanted to get rid of them eventually, it would have been much smarter to string them along until the he had a more secure grasp on the rest of the fleet.[/quote]
He had the military, the tilium miners with him, how secure of a grasp does he really need? If the Quorum were just going to stand for the old regime, everything gets more bloody. He is forcing sides, you are with him or against him. By protracting it out people get indecive and don't have to make a decision. If a group of people were going to stand for something that he felt was not only amoral, but disastorous for humankind, I can understand him for not wanting to take that risk.

[aegon6]

[quote name='TrackerNeil' post='1681551' date='Feb 10 2009, 18.31']I'm just wondering...did Tom Zarek receive the benefit of a trial? Or do only presidents who lie down for Cylons get those? Maybe Adama decided the question of Zarek's guilt was a military matter, like everything else.[/quote]
Probably no trial. Adama would have had them killed anyway.

[TrackerNeil]

[quote name='Guy Kilmore' post='1681889' date='Feb 10 2009, 15.57']He had the military, the tilium miners with him, how secure of a grasp does he really need? If the Quorum were just going to stand for the old regime, everything gets more bloody. He is forcing sides, you are with him or against him. By protracting it out people get indecive and don't have to make a decision. If a group of people were going to stand for something that he felt was not only amoral, but disastorous for humankind, I can understand him for not wanting to take that risk.[/quote]

The Quorum could have made Zarek's rule much more legitimate, but when they pointedly referred to him as "Mr. VICE-President", it made sense (in an evil way) to wipe them out before they could do him any damage. Let them linger and they can foment even more dissension.

[Ratty]

Actually i think the key failure of Zarek when he executed the forum was that it lead to Captain Kelly changing sides. There was a look on Kellys face when the gunshots went off that showed he was having doubts, leading to the Tyrol and Adama moments. Whilst a lot of the mutineers are clearly hardcore, I imagine a good proportion of them arn't and as they are presumably in the minority onboard Galactica any hardcore actions by the likes of Zarek would cause a number of mutineers to change sides. For example Racetrack last episode looked more than a little dismayed at the sight of Lee Adama presumably about to shot by Connor. Hot Dog who I believe was also a mutineer didn't want to shoot the president down as well, Zarek was too much of extremist, too black and white to actually succeed despite all of his personel charisma, seriously what did he think the reaction among the crew, mutineers or otherwise would be to the execution of the quorum?

[Ran]

I don't think Kelly was on board Colonial One when Zarek murdered the Quorom.

[Shryke]

[quote name='Ratty' post='1682002' date='Feb 10 2009, 17.28']Actually i think the key failure of Zarek when he executed the forum was that it lead to Captain Kelly changing sides. There was a look on Kellys face when the gunshots went off that showed he was having doubts, leading to the Tyrol and Adama moments. Whilst a lot of the mutineers are clearly hardcore, I imagine a good proportion of them arn't and as they are presumably in the minority onboard Galactica any hardcore actions by the likes of Zarek would cause a number of mutineers to change sides. For example Racetrack last episode looked more than a little dismayed at the sight of Lee Adama presumably about to shot by Connor. Hot Dog who I believe was also a mutineer didn't want to shoot the president down as well, Zarek was too much of extremist, too black and white to actually succeed despite all of his personel charisma, seriously what did he think the reaction among the crew, mutineers or otherwise would be to the execution of the quorum?[/quote]

I think alot of the mutineers were like Gaeta. They were mad. Pissed at making deals with the people who murdered all their friends and family. But, in the end, they didn't really have a plan for what to do AFTERWORDS. They didn't have the stomach for a real rebellion or a complete over-throw (which is what Zarek was doing).

It was more ... an expression of rage.

[Guy Kilmore]

[quote name='TrackerNeil' post='1681950' date='Feb 10 2009, 15.49']The Quorum could have made Zarek's rule much more legitimate, but when they pointedly referred to him as "Mr. VICE-President", it made sense (in an evil way) to wipe them out before they could do him any damage. Let them linger and they can foment even more dissension.[/quote]
I would substitute evil with ruthless (sp?), but pretty much how I see it.

[quote]I think alot of the mutineers were like Gaeta. They were mad. Pissed at making deals with the people who murdered all their friends and family. But, in the end, they didn't really have a plan for what to do AFTERWORDS. They didn't have the stomach for a real rebellion or a complete over-throw (which is what Zarek was doing).

It was more ... an expression of rage.[/quote]

I agree. I would say rage and despair. Anger gives away much easier than despair.

[aeu]

[quote name='Ran' post='1682009' date='Feb 10 2009, 17.31']I don't think Kelly was on board Colonial One when Zarek murdered the Quorom.[/quote]

He was in front of the door, no? Zarek tells him to go fetch someone (Gaeta?) just as the shots start going off inside the room.

[mcbigski]

I'm pretty sure Kelly was on board Colonial One, in the hallway around the corner after Zarek tells his hired goons to shoot them all. I did think it was kind of funny how the Quorum chamber has windows on both sides and is maybe 20' wide and the corridor coming out of there appeared to turn to the right and continue on for about 40' or so.

As for the trial, maybe Gaeta and Zarek got a full blown court martial/tribunal, maybe not. As a flag officer in times of war, regulations give Adama some pretty broad leeway in punishing treason, though I can't quite remember Admiral Cain's quote on that exactly.

[Crow's Eye]

[quote name='Guy Kilmore' post='1681889' date='Feb 10 2009, 15.57']He had the military, the tilium miners with him, how secure of a grasp does he really need? [b]If the Quorum were just going to stand for the old regime, everything gets more bloody[/b]. He is forcing sides, you are with him or against him. By protracting it out people get indecive and don't have to make a decision. If a group of people were going to stand for something that he felt was not only amoral, but disastorous for humankind, I can understand him for not wanting to take that risk.[/quote]

I hadn't considered that possibility. I was disappointed with the Quorum incident, thinking it was way out of character for Zarek to want to kill the entire leadership structure of the fleet when they disagreed with his revolution. But maybe he did believe that it was necessary to sweep out all remnants of the old regime in order to start fresh, and that he really intended to establish a liberal democracy (and actually respect it if the people voted him out of office).

I agree with those who felt this ending was just too neat and tidy. It definitely felt rushed. The Oath was so good that this episode was bound to be a bit of a letdown, though. I am interested to see how Adama deals with the [s]revolutionaries[/s] mutineers from his crew. I see a big group hug session coming, and Adama graciously (and maybe tearfully) forgiving his crew for having the temerity to question his absolute authority in all things. Maybe the entire crew will come together and forgive each other in time to patch up the giant gaping holes erupting throughout the engine room. But I think that plot device is scheduled to give Tyrol something to do now that he has no job, no wife, no kid, and generally no purpose other than to spend an entire episode grunting his way through small tunnels.

I don't see what other choice Adama has, though. He pretty much needs those pilots and deckhands. But then again you can't trust them not to revolt again when they disagree with Adama's next [s]royal fiat[/s] tough decision. But you trusted the Cylons? that'll look really good. Forgive the Cylons, execute the humans. Which makes you wonder how the rest of the fleet will take the news that their Vice President-turned-slasher movie killer executed the entire civilian government, which was realistically their last effective line of defense against the Roslin/Adama (and Cylon-friendly) military dictatorship, and then was executed himself along with one or more co-conspirators, all before dinner, and coming on the heels of the Earth fiasco?