And yet another Battlestar thread

[Ran]

Are you serious? Heh. It would completely undermine Gaeta's last two scenes, for one thing, to have him having made a deal to not die. Just ... totally undermine it.

The dream was a device, nothing more, quickly revealed to be a dream, not really a part of the whole plot progression. I mean, hell, it comes out of nowhere really. That the trailer played it up is true enough, but RDM and co. don't control the trailers.

Gaeta's execution is the conclusion of the plot. To not execute him is just ... yeah, a copout.

[Bronn Stone]

[quote name='Ran' post='1679187' date='Feb 8 2009, 14.16']Gaeta's execution is the conclusion of the plot. To not execute him is just ... yeah, a copout.[/quote]

I'd say St. Helena would be just as apt a conclusion.

[Ran]

That reference is obscure to me. You're talking about ... Admiral Cain? I'm not following you. :)

[Werthead]

[quote]I also believe the IMDB report that Gaeta appears in the remaining episodes. Which would mean the firing squad has orders to fire only at Zarek.[/quote]

Except when you see them, fire, the whole line fires. Unless the ones aiming for Gaeta missed on purpose.

[quote]Huger copout than executing Adama in a dream??????[/quote]

Except it was obvious from the second the scene started it was a dream. The sound was distorted, the visuals were slightly step-printed and so on. The SFC simply used it as a piece of misdirection.

[Shryke]

[quote name='Ran' post='1679187' date='Feb 8 2009, 17.16']The dream was a device, nothing more, quickly revealed to be a dream, not really a part of the whole plot progression. I mean, hell, it comes out of nowhere really. That the trailer played it up is true enough, but RDM and co. don't control the trailers.[/quote]

Aye, the dream sequence is obviously a dream sequence and is meant to reflect on Baltar's character.

Sci-Fi just used it in their stupid trailers. Which is, btw, a reason to never, ever, ever, ever watch trailers. Ever.

[TrackerNeil]

Here's something that's been bothering me. Did the marines in those episodes ever succeed in actually guarding anything? Tigh and Adama escaped from two of them, Lee and Kara took out four and then another five or six. Even Romo Lampkin, a handcuffed, unarmed attorney, managed to kill one [i]with a ballpoint pen[/i]. Sorry, but I think most marines are probably a bit more competent than that. Admittedly, I despise Romo Lampkin with a fiery purple passion, but come on.

[AndyP]

[quote name='Raidne' post='1678935' date='Feb 8 2009, 13.23']Try as I might, I just can't see how all these critiques could cast a shadow over an episode where Romo stabs a guy with a pen. And calls him his pen pal.[/quote]

If Romo's character development had existed only for that purpose then it was well worth the effort. Loved that scene.

[Lord O' Bones]

[quote name='TrackerNeil' post='1679518' date='Feb 8 2009, 20.00']Here's something that's been bothering me. Did the marines in those episodes ever succeed in actually guarding anything? Tigh and Adama escaped from two of them, Lee and Kara took out four and then another five or six. Even Romo Lampkin, a handcuffed, unarmed attorney, managed to kill one [i]with a ballpoint pen[/i]. Sorry, but I think most marines are probably a bit more competent than that. Admittedly, I despise Romo Lampkin with a fiery purple passion, but come on.[/quote]
You know, I've wondered about something along these lines. How many marines are actually trained Marines? I think at one point early on they mentioned how many they had left, and I remember the number being fairly small. I've assumed that they were refilling the ranks with people from elswhere. Possibly that's the reason it looks like they're almost feeble compared to pilots and equal to deck hands and civilians (once they're equally armed?) :dunno:

[Guest Raidne]

Okay, so I agree that I only thought the dream sequence was cheap because of the way it was presented in the trailers. In the episode, it was clearly a dream sequence. And it was Baltar's dream, so it must have meaning for Baltar.

[quote name='Ran' post='1678758' date='Feb 8 2009, 03.59']I thought the differences between Baltar's dream of Adama's execution and the reality of Zarek's and Gaeta's execution. In Baltar's dream, there's a blindfold, and a white square pinned to his chest as a target, and he's standing. In reality, no blindfolds, no targets, and they're seated. If it had been Gaeta's dream and not Baltar's, there would have been some nice analysis in that (blindfold=Gaeta can't stand to see Adama's eyes; square on the chest=Can't really bear to think of killing Adama, so the square is a sort of object between Gaeta and the deed; shooting the target instead of shooting Adama is a hair different; standing=Gaeta's respect for Adama)... I suppose it all holds for Baltar as well, of course. Perhaps it even signifies his belief of how Gaeta might do it, given that he knew Felix.[/quote]

This I can't really see. It totally makes sense to me how it would work nicely for Gaeta, but not for Baltar, I don't think, since he's not the one who put the order out to execute Adama. Baltar apparently decided to return to Galactica after that dream, but not to change his life, just to change his pattern of running and saving his own ass. It seemed like he was still going to go back to his followers/harem.

I guess the dream could be about Adama as a leader vs. Baltar as a leader, and his knowledge of his past (and current) failures to lead. But I can't make the symbolism work - blindfolded, white square pinned to his chest. Can't even decide if the standing should matter, since it's not like Baltar knew that he would actually be seated, but I suppose it does since the writers did and the scenes were practically back to back inviting easy comparison.

Or it could be one of those dreams with general prophetic or deeper meaning - not just meaning for Baltar. I'm inclined to go with the latter, or both - a dream with general meaning for Adama and the fleet on a symbolic level that also had personal significance for Baltar through a comparison of himself with Adama.

Thoughts?

[Werthead]

[quote name='Lord O' Bones' post='1679529' date='Feb 9 2009, 04.14']You know, I've wondered about something along these lines. How many marines are actually trained Marines? I think at one point early on they mentioned how many they had left, and I remember the number being fairly small. I've assumed that they were refilling the ranks with people from elswhere. Possibly that's the reason it looks like they're almost feeble compared to pilots and equal to deck hands and civilians (once they're equally armed?) :dunno:[/quote]

This is a good point. [i]Galactica[/i] hardly has any 'proper' marines left as we saw in Season 1 and 2 (Tigh had to assign pilots to command the marine squads on the ships that needed to resupply [i]Galactica[/i]), and [i]Pegasus[/i] lost a lot of hers repelling the Cylon boarders. So they probably have had to recruit from elsewhere. Also, a lot of the better marines like Mathias have bought it over the years as well.

[TrackerNeil]

[quote name='Werthead' post='1679788' date='Feb 9 2009, 07.44']This is a good point. [i]Galactica[/i] hardly has any 'proper' marines left as we saw in Season 1 and 2 (Tigh had to assign pilots to command the marine squads on the ships that needed to resupply [i]Galactica[/i]), and [i]Pegasus[/i] lost a lot of hers repelling the Cylon boarders. So they probably have had to recruit from elsewhere. Also, a lot of the better marines like Mathias have bought it over the years as well.[/quote]

Galactica and Pegasus had, between them, nearly 300 marines, at least according to something Saul Tigh said in Season 3. I assume at least 2 of them can actually do something other than lose in a fight with an attorney when it's pen vs. gun.

[Rockroi]

[quote]Here's something that's been bothering me. Did the marines in those episodes ever succeed in actually guarding anything? Tigh and Adama escaped from two of them, Lee and Kara took out four and then another five or six. Even Romo Lampkin, a handcuffed, unarmed attorney, managed to kill one with a ballpoint pen. Sorry, but I think most marines are probably a bit more competent than that. Admittedly, I despise Romo Lampkin with a fiery purple passion, but come on.[/quote]

They preformed very well according to the script's dictates. When guarding somebody for Gaeta or Zaerik, they failed utterly; when told to guard something for Adama, Tigh, etc, they did a stellar job. My favorite was when they had two guys guard Adama and Tigh down to the brig in the first part. They had two guards. Total. Okay, its only the most important prisoner the rebellion is going to run across- so they assign him and his Cylon #2 exactly... two guards? Really? I mean... were the other Marines on a coffee break? The (lame) theory is that was all Zerick and Gaeta could spare. Well, considering that they PLANNED on taking Adama by force, you would have thought they would have prepared for the eventuality of his transfer.

But I will say this- those Marines guarded the hell out of those dead Quorum members. Not a single one came back from the dead while they were there. And on this show, that is no small feat.

And that "Adama Execution" scene was "obviously" a dream, but that is not really an excuse. It gives the writers all the dramatic effect of killing Adama, without ever having to do it. Its one of my most fervent pet-peeves in sci-fi and fantasy- where a character will be momentarily THOUGHT of as dead, but will be very much alive. I thought this time was especially poorly done.

[Bronn Stone]

[quote name='Rockroi' post='1679807' date='Feb 9 2009, 05.28']My favorite was when they had two guys guard Adama and Tigh down to the brig in the first part. They had two guards. Total. Okay, its only the most important prisoner the rebellion is going to run across- so they assign him and his Cylon #2 exactly... two guards? Really? I mean... were the other Marines on a coffee break? The (lame) theory is that was all Zerick and Gaeta could spare. Well, considering that they PLANNED on taking Adama by force, you would have thought they would have prepared for the eventuality of his transfer.

But I will say this- those Marines guarded the hell out of those dead Quorum members. Not a single one came back from the dead while they were there. And on this show, that is no small feat.[/quote]

I think there could be a reasonable case made that Zarek and Gaeta only had a half dozen or so 'reliable' Marines and were using most of them to protect CIC. Extra Marines guarding Adama and Tigh don't do any good if they start fighting on the wrong side.

[aeu]

[quote name='Rockroi' post='1679807' date='Feb 9 2009, 08.28']And that "Adama Execution" scene was "obviously" a dream, but that is not really an excuse. It gives the writers all the dramatic effect of killing Adama, without ever having to do it. Its one of my most fervent pet-peeves in sci-fi and fantasy- where a character will be momentarily THOUGHT of as dead, but will be very much alive. I thought this time was especially poorly done.[/quote]

How does it give writers all the dramatic effect of killing Adama when it's obviously a dream?

[TrackerNeil]

[quote name='aeu' post='1680014' date='Feb 9 2009, 11.42']How does it give writers all the dramatic effect of killing Adama when it's obviously a dream?[/quote]

If it's not surprising to the viewer, and it doesn't convey information or forward the story, why have it at all?

[Shryke]

[quote name='TrackerNeil' post='1680338' date='Feb 9 2009, 15.03']If it's not surprising to the viewer, and it doesn't convey information or forward the story, why have it at all?[/quote]

The Adama getting executed scene is there to support Baltar feeling bad about running away again.

[Bronn Stone]

[quote name='Bronn Stone' post='1679189' date='Feb 8 2009, 14.18']I'd say St. Helena would be just as apt a conclusion.[/quote]
[quote name='Ran' post='1679193' date='Feb 8 2009, 14.21']That reference is obscure to me. You're talking about ... Admiral Cain? I'm not following you. :)[/quote]

Napoleon's final and permanent exile.

[Ran]

Ah. Where exactly were they going to exile Gaeta?

[Lord of Oop North]

[quote]Ah. Where exactly were they going to exile Gaeta?[/quote]

A couple hundred feet off the port side.

[Kalbear]

I'll be incredibly pissed if Gaeta survived. The episode already dealt with things too quickly; it really should have run for another episode. I can fanwank that everyone broke down like Kelly did after seeing what they had done and all the damage they'd caused, but at the same time...bah. It needed a lot more than Zarek and Gaeta up against the wall.

Narcho's explanation was awesome. I didn't mention that before, but that right there really made the ep. Here was a totally reasonable guy who didn't hate Adama or anyone, really - save the Cylons. And you can totally understand why. He was willing to die because he couldn't stand working with them. And I don't see that as a real problem. What I do see as a real problem is putting that kind of guy back in rotation - what do you do with everyone like that? I don't have a real answer for it.