And yet another Battlestar thread

[SpaceChampion]

[quote name='aegon6' post='1687292' date='Feb 15 2009, 04.28']More likely No 7 was named after this character for some reason (that we'll only see in Caprica).[/quote]


I thought it was pretty clear from the premise of Caprica that the cylon models were based on humans downloaded into skinjob bodies.  So I'd expect the Daniel (Seven) model to be Daniel Graystone downloaded.  And perhaps Six is his daughter Zoe.

[TrackerNeil]

[quote name='Bronn Stone' post='1687640' date='Feb 15 2009, 15.42']These Cylons have just proved beyond a doubt their good intentions. Humanity is at their mercy. Galactica is helpless. The fleet is helpless without Galactica. And their next act will apparently to reinforce the humans.[/quote]

Are you talking about the rebels? If so, you might want to watch Season 4.0 again. The rebels didn't join the fleet out of a sense of justice and charity; they needed fuel, supplies and protection, and still do. And [i]Galactica[/i] is far from helpless, and is I suspect capable of destroying or severely damaging an already-batted and Raiderless basestar.

[quote name='Bronn Stone' post='1687640' date='Feb 15 2009, 15.42']But I'd not be so quick to say that all individual models of those who were on the side that voted to attack the Colonies. We still don't have a clue as to how consensus is reached within the models. It could be the formal vote during which Boomer made her noted dissenting-against-her-model vote is simply a formality - the equivalent of the Electoral College or the House of Lords. That the REAL decision is made in whatever (totally undiscussed) process the models use to reach an agreement within themselves.

And if you REALLY would suggest that an individual who refused to make a pointless symbolic vote that would have not saved a single Colony but would have disrupted a society that is otherwise relatively harmonious, then (add your own hyperbolic ending here - I'd get banned if I just pasted yours).[/quote]

I'm not really sure exactly what you're saying here.

[Ondrew Tyrell]

[quote name='EHK for a True GOP' post='1687588' date='Feb 15 2009, 14.32']I've yet to see a 'Well the black guys didn't want this!' (completely forgot that models name) claim. Except for the one from Cavil, which we now know to be BS.[/quote]
That line in "Lay Down Your Burdens" was just one particular Cavil's opinion, not the whole model's. I think we still don't know whether he was lying, or when exactly he made up his mind.

[EHK for Darwin]

[quote name='Ondrew Tyrell' post='1687782' date='Feb 15 2009, 18.14']That line in "Lay Down Your Burdens" was just one particular Cavil's opinion, not the whole model's. I think we still don't know whether he was lying, or when exactly he made up his mind.[/quote]

Well that opinion was either formed post-genocide after long interaction with humans or it didn't factor in enough to change his vote, since we know with certainty that that Cavil voted with all the other Cavils.

[Shryke]

The Cavils voted No on the genocide. At least, as I remember.

[oneeye]

That Cavil that interacts with Ellen seems an especially nasty model, different from the priest we saw before.

[EHK for Darwin]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1687821' date='Feb 15 2009, 19.21']The Cavils voted No on the genocide. At least, as I remember.[/quote]

So they said. But the events of the last episode make it pretty clear that the Cavils manipulated events to ensure the genocide, so even if that was their vote, its meaningless. They're the most responsible of all the models for engineering it in the first place.

[Werthead]

[quote name='EHK for a True GOP' post='1687801' date='Feb 16 2009, 00.42']Well that opinion was either formed post-genocide after long interaction with humans or it didn't factor in enough to change his vote, since we know with certainty that that Cavil voted with all the other Cavils.[/quote]

And before someone asks how we know that, because Boomer siding with Cavil in the Civil War rather than the other Eights was the first time [i]ever[/i] that an individual Cylon had broken ranks with the rest of their model, as was repeatedly said at the time.

[Guy Kilmore]

[quote name='EHK for a True GOP' post='1687702' date='Feb 15 2009, 16.16']We know that they vote and until Boomer, no individual Cylon had ever voted against their model number. It is impossible to reach 100% unanimity across millions of people simply by discussion and consensus building. If any of them truly disagreed, there would be dissenters within the model numbers voting no. There weren't. And even if there was dissent, this was not a vote on what to have for dinner, this was a vote to exterminate a species. Harmonious society be damned, you either voice your disapproval and vote against it or you're entirely complicit.[/quote]
From what we know I agree with you, at the same token there is alot we don't know.

What happened during the first Cylon War? How did it start? What were the tatics. I mean I can envision actions by humanity that based upon the logic you have been arguing would justify the Cylon's actions. If Humanity was seeking to enslave and wipe out any ability at sentient thought, destroy their personhood. We don't know how many Cylons were destroyed, nor do we know when they held the vote? Was it right after they were able to claw their way to a standstill? The only thing that we know that got them to settle for some peace is that the Final 5 gave them the "skinjobs", but those are the Final 5's word, we have no idea what the Cylon leadership at that time was thinking of.

[Ondrew Tyrell]

[quote name='EHK for a True GOP' post='1687843' date='Feb 15 2009, 20.53']the Cavils manipulated events to ensure the genocide, so even if [No] was their vote, its meaningless.[/quote]
It matters because the Cavil who says he opposed the invasion may well have done nothing wrong: he didn't vote for it and he also wouldn't have helped manipulate the others. I actually suspect you're right, though. That interview (which I haven't heard) saying all the Cavils voted against the invasion will be retconned away and the moderate Cavil we saw will either have voted for the invasion against his conscience or he will have changed his mind after the fact.

[EHK for Darwin]

[quote name='Guy Kilmore' post='1687846' date='Feb 15 2009, 20.02']From what we know I agree with you, at the same token there is alot we don't know.

What happened during the first Cylon War? How did it start? What were the tatics. I mean I can envision actions by humanity that based upon the logic you have been arguing would justify the Cylon's actions. If Humanity was seeking to enslave and wipe out any ability at sentient thought, destroy their personhood. We don't know how many Cylons were destroyed, nor do we know when they held the vote? Was it right after they were able to claw their way to a standstill? The only thing that we know that got them to settle for some peace is that the Final 5 gave them the "skinjobs", but those are the Final 5's word, we have no idea what the Cylon leadership at that time was thinking of.[/quote]

How could anything that happened in the first Cylon War change things? No matter how bad the Colonials were, there was 40 years of peace. If there were crimes that warranted punishment, most of the human culprits would've been long since dead or retired. The generation now living would've had nothing to with the enslavement and probably nothing to do with the war either beyond some active 60+ somethings (Adama, Tigh) who might have been low level grunts at that time. And its not like any crime would warrant genocide as a punishment...short of genocide itself. There is nothing humanity could have done prior to the attacks to grant an ounce of justification to the genocide.

[quote]It matters because the Cavil who says he opposed the invasion may well have done nothing wrong: he didn't vote for it and he also wouldn't have helped manipulate the others. I actually suspect you're right, though. That interview (which I haven't heard) saying all the Cavils voted against the invasion will be retconned away and the moderate Cavil we saw will either have voted for the invasion against his conscience or he will have changed his mind after the fact.[/quote]

It wasn't an interview. As has been said countless times in this thread and was made obvious a season ago in the show, Boomer's vote on the Civil War was the FIRST TIME IN CYLON HISTORY that an individual cylon voted against their model number. They're not going to retcon that out. Its too big, too prominent. In fact I think the Cavil 'confession' has itself been retconned out, because it was a small, offhand mention of minor significance at the time to the viewers (we didn't know about Cylon voting habits yet...and I suspect the writers didn't either). I think the writers have decided to intentionally forget that ever happened ever since they picked Cavil as the main villain.

[TrackerNeil]

[quote name='EHK for a True GOP' post='1687891' date='Feb 15 2009, 22.06']How could anything that happened in the first Cylon War change things? No matter how bad the Colonials were, there was 40 years of peace. If there were crimes that warranted punishment, most of the human culprits would've been long since dead or retired. The generation now living would've had nothing to with the enslavement and probably nothing to do with the war either beyond some active 60+ somethings (Adama, Tigh) who might have been low level grunts at that time. And its not like any crime would warrant genocide as a punishment...short of genocide itself. There is nothing humanity could have done prior to the attacks to grant an ounce of justification to the genocide.[/quote]

Whatever the humans did to the Cylons really doesn't justify the genocide the Cylons visited in the Twelve Colonies. It would be convenient for me to blame my fuckups on the actions of the parents who created me, but at the end of the day I have to take responsibility for the choices I make. Why did the Cylons attack the Twelve Colonies? It wasn't revenge or justice, and it wasn't the fault of the humans. The Cylons attacked the Colonies because...they wanted to. John/Cavil muddied the waters regarding the ancillary events, but at the end of the day the other skinjobs decided to go down the road of genocide. The fact that humanity (and the Five) created this monster doesn't absolve the monster of responsibility for its sins.

[Guy Kilmore]

[quote name='EHK for a True GOP' post='1687891' date='Feb 15 2009, 21.06']How could anything that happened in the first Cylon War change things? No matter how bad the Colonials were, there was 40 years of peace. If there were crimes that warranted punishment, most of the human culprits would've been long since dead or retired. The generation now living would've had nothing to with the enslavement and probably nothing to do with the war either beyond some active 60+ somethings (Adama, Tigh) who might have been low level grunts at that time. And its not like any crime would warrant genocide as a punishment...short of genocide itself. There is nothing humanity could have done prior to the attacks to grant an ounce of justification to the genocide.[/quote]
What is the time limit for "revenge" when you have been a victim of potential genocide? (No idea if they were or not, but who knows how many Cylons existed before or after the 1st war. The possibility is concievable that there was an equivilant successful attack or what not that did so. We have no idea if there was.)

The human fleet continued to upgrade is arament, the possible genocide would be fresh in the minds of those who experienced it, I am not seeing a difference in either of these positions.

[Shryke]

Seriously, when you live forever, what's 40 years?

[SpaceChampion]

No one here has mentioned that Ellen was frakking a cylon who she modelled and named after her father.  I suppose the writers are going for an Oedipal/Electra complex as the blame for everything.  I wonder how far they are going to go with that.  

[Shryke]

[quote name='SpaceChampion' post='1687982' date='Feb 16 2009, 00.19']No one here has mentioned that Ellen was frakking a cylon who she modelled and named after her father.  I suppose the writers are going for an Oedipal/Electra complex as the blame for everything.  I wonder how far they are going to go with that.  [/quote]

Cavil made his "mother" screw him to get his "father" out of jail.

Fucked up.

[EHK for Darwin]

[quote name='Guy Kilmore' post='1687943' date='Feb 15 2009, 22.20']What is the time limit for "revenge" when you have been a victim of potential genocide? (No idea if they were or not, but who knows how many Cylons existed before or after the 1st war. The possibility is concievable that there was an equivilant successful attack or what not that did so. We have no idea if there was.)

The human fleet continued to upgrade is arament, the possible genocide would be fresh in the minds of those who experienced it, I am not seeing a difference in either of these positions.[/quote]

Who are they getting revenge on? People who had nothing to do with their slavery and no influence on the conduct of the war? These are for the most part the children of the oppressors who have no individual culpability for the events that occurred. Further there had been 40 years of peace. The colonials had not attacked them during this time. They were not mobilizing for war. In fact they were largely ignoring the Cylons, they had moved on, Cylons were an afterthought for nearly everyone who hadn't lived through the war. The Cylons had infiltrated human societies. They would have known this. And still they attacked.

There was no revenge to be had against the actual culprits. No imminent threat of any sort. And they would have had a HUGE advance notice before there ever became one. The Cylons simply wanted to wipe out humanity and they did, without justification or provocation. Not even of the flimsiest sort.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

[quote name='EHK for a True GOP' post='1688023' date='Feb 16 2009, 01.19']Who are they getting revenge on? People who had nothing to do with their slavery and no influence on the conduct of the war? These are for the most part the children of the oppressors who have no individual culpability for the events that occurred.[/quote]"The sins of the father shall be visited upon the sons." For the cylons, it was colonial humanity that oppressed them so it is colonial humanity that will pay for their sins.

[quote]Further there had been 40 years of peace.[/quote]Peace is not simply the absence of war.

[quote]The colonials had not attacked them during this time. They were not mobilizing for war. In fact they were largely ignoring the Cylons, they had moved on, Cylons were an afterthought for nearly everyone who hadn't lived through the war.[/quote]My understanding is that the Colonials were fighting a rather uphill war in the 1st Cylon War prior to the armistice, so their lack of fighting the cylons seemed to be mostly rebuilding.

[quote]The Cylons had infiltrated human societies. They would have known this. And still they attacked. There was no revenge to be had against the actual culprits. No imminent threat of any sort. And they would have had a HUGE advance notice before there ever became one. The Cylons simply wanted to wipe out humanity and they did, without justification or provocation. Not even of the flimsiest sort.[/quote]We also have no idea whether or not the high command of the military or the government had any possible plans for dealing with the cylons in the future. While we may never know, the cylons could have discovered something via infiltration.

[Ondrew Tyrell]

[quote name='EHK for a True GOP' post='1687891' date='Feb 15 2009, 22.06']It wasn't an interview. As has been said countless times in this thread and was made obvious a season ago in the show, Boomer's vote on the Civil War was the FIRST TIME IN CYLON HISTORY that an individual cylon voted against their model number.[/quote]
There's no need to capitalize. I know that at least as well as you do. I'm talking about the idea which some people are taking seriously that the Cavils voted - unanimously, yes - against the genocide. I'm not sure what evidence there is for that, but I guess I don't care, since if it was ever supposed to be true it probably isn't any more. If it were true it would make the moderate Cavil pretty much completely innocent, though.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Tracker,

[quote name='TrackerNeil' post='1687933' date='Feb 15 2009, 22.58']John/Cavil muddied the waters regarding the ancillary events, but at the end of the day the other skinjobs decided to go down the road of genocide.[/quote]

Not if Cavil literally futzed with the other 6 new skinjobs heads. I think he's telling the truth when he says his model voted against the genocide. I think he manipulated the others to go forward with it, perhaps biologically.